These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1401 - 2013-04-17 06:58:34 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Apart from the Dragoon, there is no other tech 1 ship that has this combo (and there are two T2 ships that do, and a T3 ship if you count the Legion with a combination of subsystems that nobody ever uses). So I'm not sure what the issue is.

Bhaalgorn

No. read it again.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1402 - 2013-04-17 07:02:25 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Apart from the Dragoon, there is no other tech 1 ship that has this combo (and there are two T2 ships that do, and a T3 ship if you count the Legion with a combination of subsystems that nobody ever uses). So I'm not sure what the issue is.

Bhaalgorn

No. read it again.

Thanks, I did it. The point is, there's already T1 Nos/Neut BS. If you somehow displeased with it's performance - GO AND FIX IT.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1403 - 2013-04-17 07:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Tonto Auri wrote:
Thanks, I did it. The point is, there's already T1 Nos/Neut BS. If you somehow displeased with it's performance - GO AND FIX IT.

Comparing it to the Bhaal might have had merit is it wasn't for the web bonus, primary weapon type, slot layout etc. .. what's next, we start complaining that Rupture is too similar to the Stabber because they share weapon system, both have drones and same midslot count? Smile

Neut range is inferior to neut power by a factor of ∞, simply because you need all the more cap yourself to do the job .. by capping out an enemy you practically guarantee that you yourself is capped out. And on the BS scale, 10-15km is not really that much of a difference when the ship in questions is slow and heavy.

Edit: I was opposed to the idea to start with, but the operational options having that hull in conjunction with a fly-swatter and sledgehammer appeals to me.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#1404 - 2013-04-17 07:31:11 UTC
I wasn't making any comparisons.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1405 - 2013-04-17 08:00:14 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Apart from the Dragoon, there is no other tech 1 ship that has this combo (and there are two T2 ships that do, and a T3 ship if you count the Legion with a combination of subsystems that nobody ever uses). So I'm not sure what the issue is.

Bhaalgorn

No. read it again.

Thanks, I did it. The point is, there's already T1 Nos/Neut BS. If you somehow displeased with it's performance - GO AND FIX IT.

You seem to have missed the point entirely.
The person I was talking to was complaining about adding more ships with a dual neut/drone bonus. The Bhaalgorn doesn't have a drone bonus. It can't even field or hold more than 3 heavy drones.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1406 - 2013-04-17 08:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Naso Aya
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:
range over 100km doesn't seem to matter these days

Maybe it doesn't in EVE-Uni, but it does in nullsec. Naga fleets with range scripted sensor boosters are fairly common, and alpha fleet ships have signal amplifiers to extend their lock range beyond 100 km.
Battleship fleets have the issues that they're slow and take a long time locking small targets, so interdictors generally don't have much trouble getting them bubbled and keeping them there if they're competent. The MJD could be of use here but it's still struggling to find a proper niche. In any case you're not going to find them on any of these fits - these ships simply don't have the mid slot to spare, nor the CPU and PG.

Naso Aya wrote:
10>8 turrets, so why do I want to use the 8?

Because on a sniping ship a 37.5% range bonus is more helpful than a 25% damage bonus. In addition the tracking bonus actually helps make Aurora viable


So...again,100 km doesn't seem to matter? Maybe rephrase that to "doesn't impact battleship fleets at all, because they can be scanned down faster than they can warp away"? Naga fleets are common, but the Apoc isn't a Naga. The Apoc has 4 mid slots, 3 since one will be a cap booster, so that's a sensor booster, a MJD, and a MWD? And for all that, it still doesn't feel that mobile.

Solo, PvE, Fleet, just give me one situation where I need an Apoc over an Abaddon or an Oracle. Someone tell me what the Apoc's niche is supposed to be, because I see it overshadowed by the Abaddon in every one of these. Or the Oracle, if I try to fit Tachs. I guess this problem existed before tiericide, but at least it could be used without capping itself in 3 minutes. Or even 5.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1407 - 2013-04-17 08:47:43 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Can anyone tell me in which area of the galaxy amarr ships aren't among the best for any task you may need them ?


Wow dude. Did you read that before you posted it?

"among the best for any task you may need them?"

So, when/if you need them, they are among the best? Not the best, among the best. And at any task you may need for them? So basically, they are good, not great, at the niche that they have managed to hold onto?

The part left unsaid is, "and no good/handicapped at other tasks".

Niches ?! Fleet warfare is a tiny niche ?!! In which world do you live ?!

I mean let's enumerate :
- frigate is probably the weak point of amarr, yet the punisher tank like a beast, and the tormentor is quite effective. crucifier and inquisitor are plain awesome and the executioner is a mini slicer.
- destroyer, if not as iconic as catalyst or thrasher, are *very* effective.
- cruisers bring the ultimate bait maller, the auguror, no need to comment, the omen and the arbitrator, all perfect.
- BC, now they are revamped, the prophecy is borderline OP, the harbinger is the perfect balance between defense, projection and dps, and the oracle...
- the amarr BS lineup is probably the best in the game, notably the abaddon which is the best fleet armor BS in the game. With the rebalance, you earn a drone boat some gallente dreamed about. The abaddon is still the same : the best fleet armor BS for medium range engagements. The apoc will murder anything smaller than a BS in an 80km radius, the doom of support ship in fleet. And with the beams buff, railguns could potentialy be pointless now.

A lot of people here a really narrow minded, looking only at their ship and difficulties it face but ignoring completely what the the reality is.

Small tweak are part of the BS rebalance, but the requests here are completely absurds.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1408 - 2013-04-17 11:15:23 UTC
CCP Rise
Perhaps you could make T2 neuts better than meta 4 so they are worth using please?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1409 - 2013-04-17 11:20:25 UTC
So because the Apoc is workable with pulse lasers (not that great, mind you, since its lack of a capacitor bonus means that you have to fire essentially spend more cap trying to kill a target than with the Abaddon) means that it absolutely shouldn't be able to fit tachyons at all, or use other beam lasers effectively?
Yeah, okay.
Your argument seems to be "amarr is good, so their **** ships shouldn't be made any better".

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1410 - 2013-04-17 11:29:05 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
So because the Apoc is workable with pulse lasers (not that great, mind you, since its lack of a capacitor bonus means that you have to fire essentially spend more cap trying to kill a target than with the Abaddon) means that it absolutely shouldn't be able to fit tachyons at all, or use other beam lasers effectively?
Yeah, okay.
Your argument seems to be "amarr is good, so their **** ships shouldn't be made any better".

All attack BS are in the same spot for this matter.

But IMO, damage application, through tracking bonus, is underrated. These ships may shine at smaller scale, and I imagine they could make good ABC counters.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#1411 - 2013-04-17 12:49:25 UTC
Still hoping you dont make Armageddon a drone boat. Re-purposing ships completely, especially a ship that is already popular at its current state is a bad decision and a slap in the face to a lot of ppl that are loving and using the hull in its current state. The fact that it was the only Amarr battleship hull with utility high made it unique enough.

And also it is an iconic ship in many ways, and the new bonuses dont fit its name, legacy, lore, anything.

Quote:
The mighty Armageddon class is the main warship of the Amarr Empire. Its heavy armaments and strong front are specially designed to crash into any battle like a juggernaut and deliver swift justice in the name of the Emperor.


Something named Armageddon should not be reduced to a neut ship. And it does not look like a drone boat.
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1412 - 2013-04-17 12:56:38 UTC
Quote:
Something named Armageddon should not be reduced to a neut ship. And it does not look like a drone boat.


used properly the new geddon will more than live up it's name.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#1413 - 2013-04-17 13:01:21 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
So because the Apoc is workable with pulse lasers (not that great, mind you, since its lack of a capacitor bonus means that you have to fire essentially spend more cap trying to kill a target than with the Abaddon) means that it absolutely shouldn't be able to fit tachyons at all, or use other beam lasers effectively?
Yeah, okay.
Your argument seems to be "amarr is good, so their **** ships shouldn't be made any better".

All attack BS are in the same spot for this matter.

But IMO, damage application, through tracking bonus, is underrated. These ships may shine at smaller scale, and I imagine they could make good ABC counters.


No they really aren't. No other line of BS is only physically able to fit one half of their weapons cause the PG requirements are so broken or forced to fit cap boosters in order to even fire their weapons and another booster if they actually want to tank and not rely on a fleet. That's what we're point out in this thread.
Nadia Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1414 - 2013-04-17 13:08:14 UTC
monkfish2345 wrote:
Quote:
Something named Armageddon should not be reduced to a neut ship. And it does not look like a drone boat.


used properly the new geddon will more than live up it's name.


Just drop the neut bonus and give it an armor amount % bonus. Let it be the little dreadnought with the super EHP that can't active tank for crap.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1415 - 2013-04-17 13:18:27 UTC

Avald Midular wrote:
....I'm not going to compare Amarr's 2nd best T2 beam to Minmatar's best T2 artillery, that isn't helpful. I'm comparing across races to make a point. No other race has a problem fitting their best T2 beam equivalent. That is my issue. I'm fine with no Amarr BS being physically able to fit, or even fire due to cap, the best T2 beam weapon as long as all the other races are in the same boat, as we have it now, Amarr is the ONLY one and that is broken.

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Tachyons are not the best beam, they are not even in the list .. they are oversized, like 1600 plates on a cruiser or a MSE on a frig. They offer respectable alpha over that of smaller bore guns, but that is it .. horrible tracking, atrocious fittings and gluttonous operation make them inferior to Mega Beams in any scenario relevant today.

Actually to be precise, Tachyon's are not oversized or they would be listed in the Capital weapon group, the flavor text merely describes them that way for some fun story stuff within the game. Tachyon's are listed in the Large Beam group, ergo by game mechanics they are indeed a standard BS weapon. Not that your argument isn't well worded, it's just based on faulty assumptions, and thus Avald's argument is the valid one.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1416 - 2013-04-17 14:06:29 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Jack C Hughes wrote:
for the oversized thing simply compare the number of turrets that Amaar and Minmatar have....

Sure, lets play that game:
Small Beam: 2, Medium Beam: 3, Large Beam: 3
Small Pulse: 3, Medium/Large Pulse: 2

Discrepancies abound! Take a look at that 3rd medium beam if you please, it is called Quad LBL and is essentially a beam version of the small gatling pulse .. if Tachyons were truly the 3rd large beam then it would have been designed in the same vein but since it was meant to compete range wise with rails in ages past it became what you see today.

As I said, lasers are a [lisp]Special[/lisp] case. Been burning crystals for as long as I have been piloting, so I am well aware of all the niggles involved.

PS: Join my crusade to introduce the M/L Gatlings please, you seem to have a passion for lasers as I have. Just prod the Devs whenever they mention "pulse" or "laser", eventually they'll buckle or in the very least explain why not Big smile

you know I'd laugh if they did buckle to it then just renamed the smallest pulse in each category Gatling instead of making a new laser for it :P
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1417 - 2013-04-17 14:50:13 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
No other line of BS is only physically able to fit one half of their weapons cause the PG requirements are so broken or forced to fit cap boosters in order to even fire their weapons and another booster if they actually want to tank and not rely on a fleet. That's what we're point out in this thread.

Like with artilleries ? Or Neutron blasters for everything but BS ? Or torpedo launchers ? Or 425mm railguns on anything but the Rokh ?

BTW, amarr BS are designed to buffer tank ; gallente ones are supposed to active armor tank. You know the basic phylosophy of amarr warfare at least ?

Ships with easy fitting are (were ?) the exception, not the norm. Fitting constraints are the whole reason for fitting requirement in fact...

And again, tachyon are not tier3 weapon, they are tier 4 weapon. Mega Beam compare to 425mm railguns and 1400mm artilleries, not with 350mm railguns and 1200mm arties. Tachyons are beyond these, hence why they are harder to fit. Again, if tachyons were as easy to fit as 425mm railguns, they would remove *any* reason for them exists beyond the quality of existing in itself.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1418 - 2013-04-17 15:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Ships with easy fitting are (were ?) the exception, not the norm. Fitting constraints are the whole reason for fitting requirement in fact...

And again, tachyon are not tier3 weapon, they are tier 4 weapon. Mega Beam compare to 425mm railguns and 1400mm artilleries, not with 350mm railguns and 1200mm arties. Tachyons are beyond these, hence why they are harder to fit. Again, if tachyons were as easy to fit as 425mm railguns, they would remove *any* reason for them exists beyond the quality of existing in itself.


Fitting constraints are the norm? Apparently for just Amarr, since we have to sacrifice half a dozen slots or more just to cap stable our ships. And since our ships are literally firing capacitor at the enemy...

Tier 4 weapon? What are you smoking? That last sentence... yeesh. No one in this damned thread is seriously suggesting that tachs should be *easy* to fit, but at least their nearest damage and range equivalent (1400mm, if you were paying attention), should not be so much easier to fit in comparison.

Now on this piece of refuse.
[quote wrote:

Niches ?! Fleet warfare is a tiny niche ?!! In which world do you live ?!

/snip for brevity



Yep, fleet warfare is pretty well a niche, yeah. Basically you are telling me that because the big huge alliances can make something work in a fleet, to hell with any other functionality? "Fleet or gtfo"? Screw that, the very implication is insulting.

Frigate is the weak point of Amarr, yep. Punisher tanks like a beast, so what? It can't hang onto anything because it can't fit a tackle, so it's EHP is useful only in, oops, a fleet. Yeah, guess we're back to "fleet or gtfo", huh? So yeah, that is not balanced.

Tormentor is... quite effective? O...k... not sure what that is supposed to mean, but sure. *rolleyes*

Crucifier is good. No, no it's not, TD's are just OP. Once those get rebalanced, and they already promised they will be, Crucifier goes out the window. And what is an inquisitor? Haven't seen one of those undocked... ever. Oh, wait, you mean what used to be badass missile frigate, and now is the joke of a logi frigate? Because logi frigate is a totally viable concept for pretty much anything, right? >.>

Our destroyer, that hilariously you can't even name (Coercer), is... a destroyer that can't kill frigates because it has no serious tackle. Let's do the math on that one. Destroyer = anti frigate platform. Coercer = destroyer that can't kill frigates should they choose to run (they all will, btw.). Coercer = Ratter. So yeah, it's niche is ratting.

Get this. A ship that cannot even theoretically tackle is automatically "fleet or gtfo". That is NOT ok.

Cruisers. Maller is being nerfed by the resist nerf, so as bait it looses a lot and gains nothing, when it has only just recently been rebalanced in the first place. Aug is typical logi. Nothing to see there. Omen finally isn't the worst cruiser in the game. Bout time. The arbitrator, long said to be the ONLY useful cruiser in the lineup, was untouched. Now it pales in comparison to the ubermensch that is the Vexxor.

Our BC's, like every BC, were overshadowed by the disgusting power of the old Hurricane. They are all in a good place now, pretty much regardless of race. Long overdue change for everyone, does not favor Amarr. We had the worst BCs by far, so they got the highest % of buffs to bring them into line.

Why even mention the Oracle? All of the Tier 3 Battlecruisers have issues at present, they project damage too easily. But, if I had to guess, the Winmatar still come out of top there, *cough*.

And now for the part of your post that is actually on topic, Battleships. Abaddon is the best armor BS in the game? It's supposed to be. Every aspect of it since it's introduction has been PvP focused, it has short term advantages in everything. Being good at what it's design intent was is such a sin, I know.

We get a drone boat, with torps. Yeah, we are coming out pretty good with the new Armageddon, although the change has angered a lot of the fans of the original geddon. But it's not as leet as people seem to think, it's a small gang ship, and designed around whooping smaller ships than itself. It still has the same issues that everything with drones has. Namely, drones have needed an overhaul as long as Lasers have. Both are outdated weapons systems. Oh, and this alone makes the new Geddon unsuitable as a mission ship, which I detailed several pages ago.

The Apoc is flat out getting screwed. There is no debating that. Here is something for you to understand. I flat out don't care what kind of damage it can project, if it can only do it for 2 minutes at a time. Guess what? Kiting is pointless if you can't afford to cycle a MWD or your guns stop firing.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1419 - 2013-04-17 15:39:00 UTC
You know, if you don't like how amarr play, just use another race, but some people actualy pvp solo or small gang with amarr ship, and do it effectively. Also, "fleet" start with two ships, but I'm glad you are not in the "solo pvp is dead !!" crowd at least

Also, when gallente niche is solo/small gang pvp, yes, I think fleet pvp is quite a big niche. But please, tell me more about fleet pvp options for gallente, so I can be happy about how better than amarr they are.

BTW you just acknowledged that amarr had very useful ships in every line.

Now, for the Apoc being a bit lacking in your eyes, just have a look at the Tempest and the Megathron, and tell me what you can do with them. They are exactly in the same spot than the Apoc. I won't rewrite what I already wrote about them though.

And finaly, a LOT of people here are asking for tachyon to be fitable without fitting mods, actually asking to remove any reason for large railguns to exists.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1420 - 2013-04-17 15:51:50 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
You know, if you don't like how amarr play, just use another race, but some people actualy pvp solo or small gang with amarr ship, and do it effectively. Also, "fleet" start with two ships, but I'm glad you are not in the "solo pvp is dead !!" crowd at least

Also, when gallente niche is solo/small gang pvp, yes, I think fleet pvp is quite a big niche. But please, tell me more about fleet pvp options for gallente, so I can be happy about how better than amarr they are.

BTW you just acknowledged that amarr had very useful ships in every line.

Now, for the Apoc being a bit lacking in your eyes, just have a look at the Tempest and the Megathron, and tell me what you can do with them. They are exactly in the same spot than the Apoc. I won't rewrite what I already wrote about them though.

And finaly, a LOT of people here are asking for tachyon to be fitable without fitting mods, actually asking to remove any reason for large railguns to exists.


Caught you. I will quantify that statement later.

I do like how Amarr play, CCP just seems to hate it. :P

"but some people actually pvp solo or small gang with amarr ship, and do it effectively" Not in a Punisher/Maller, they don't. And if they do, someone else tackles for them.

And here we get to the crux of the matter.

Mentions gallente? Check.

Complains about gallente in fleets? Check.

Complains about railguns? Check.

All of the inane statements you have made on this thread, all of the trolling, simply serves to mask a typical gallente whine. You have your own thread for that.

You need to realize that Amarr addressing issues in Amarr threads does not invalidate the legitimate issues that gallente and railguns do have. We are asking for the inexplicable inadequacies in our race to be addressed, we are not asking for gallente to be nerfed.

So yeah, looking back, three people in this thread have said that tachs should be fittable without fitting mods. Just like railguns are, and just like arty is. Well, maybe with a bit more fitting help would be acceptable.

But I have never said that. I have argued exclusively about cap issues and resists. So don't attack my points with a strawman of a statement someone else made.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.