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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1361 - 2013-04-16 20:31:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruze
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Can anyone tell me in which area of the galaxy amarr ships aren't among the best for any task you may need them ?


That's a good question. I mean, are we talking pve or pvp?

If PVE, are you in an area where your enemy is strongly tanked against EM or TH? Are you facing considerable amounts of damage input which has to be actively tanked? Do you have an alt or friend to remote rep you, forgoing solo play altogether? Do you need cargo space for loot? Do you have three weapon systems trained fully in order to maximize the benefit from all t1 ships?

If PVP, are you in a small gang or solo? Does your enemy have naturally hardened resists against your primary damage type? Are you able to set the engagement range? Are you scrammed? Is your enemy neuting you? Do you have alts/buddies to spend their whole time keeping YOU repaired?

I mean, obviously, we are never at a penalty. I've been saying for years we're the superior race, but nobody believed me.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1362 - 2013-04-16 20:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Can anyone tell me in which area of the galaxy amarr ships aren't among the best for any task you may need them ?


Wow dude. Did you read that before you posted it?

"among the best for any task you may need them?"

So, when/if you need them, they are among the best? Not the best, among the best. And at any task you may need for them? So basically, they are good, not great, at the niche that they have managed to hold onto?

The part left unsaid is, "and no good/handicapped at other tasks".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#1363 - 2013-04-16 20:43:55 UTC
How about a conditional cap bonus such as +50% to total cap when fitting beam or pulse lasers.

That way it wil encourage laser use and make the hulls less attractive to people who want to put artillery on an amarr vessel (which makes my blood boil).

Personally I think the bonus should be 100% given the cap needs of amarr weapons, only then would we get equal skin in the game and last as long as our enemies before capping out.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#1364 - 2013-04-16 20:47:03 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
How about a conditional cap bonus such as +50% to total cap when fitting beam or pulse lasers.

That way it wil encourage laser use and make the hulls less attractive to people who want to put artillery on an amarr vessel (which makes my blood boil).

Personally I think the bonus should be 100% given the cap needs of amarr weapons, only then would we get equal skin in the game and last as long as our enemies before capping out.


Instead of gimmicky bonuses they could just fix them (not talking about slight tweaks that change nothing).
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1365 - 2013-04-16 20:48:50 UTC
If you guys want some real fun .. add in the Amarr ship crippler ... the Microwarp Drive :p
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1366 - 2013-04-16 20:56:23 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
How about a conditional cap bonus such as +50% to total cap when fitting beam or pulse lasers.

That way it wil encourage laser use and make the hulls less attractive to people who want to put artillery on an amarr vessel (which makes my blood boil).

Personally I think the bonus should be 100% given the cap needs of amarr weapons, only then would we get equal skin in the game and last as long as our enemies before capping out.


Instead of gimmicky bonuses they could just fix them (not talking about slight tweaks that change nothing).


How do you mean 'fix them', because as I understand it, there are multiple problems here.

- Reduce the cap use too much on the lasers, and you setup the potential for other races to be able to use them just as well as Amarr, creating unbalance by having fits that aren't expected and planned for.

- Increase the cap recharge or total cap too much on Amarr ships, and you will see fits such as 'unlimited neut' or 'unlimited mwd' fits that break one game mechanic or another. The amount of cap a ship uses for non-weapon functionality is also important.

- Put a cap use bonus on certain ships, and you simply make lasers only really viable on THOSE ships, but also remove the option for other useful bonuses. Basically as in the past, your wasting a bonus just to let Amarr do what every other race does without a bonus.

Those are just the three 'easy' options, and most suggested.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#1367 - 2013-04-16 21:03:48 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
How about a conditional cap bonus such as +50% to total cap when fitting beam or pulse lasers.

That way it wil encourage laser use and make the hulls less attractive to people who want to put artillery on an amarr vessel (which makes my blood boil).

Personally I think the bonus should be 100% given the cap needs of amarr weapons, only then would we get equal skin in the game and last as long as our enemies before capping out.


Instead of gimmicky bonuses they could just fix them (not talking about slight tweaks that change nothing).


How do you mean 'fix them', because as I understand it, there are multiple problems here.

- Reduce the cap use too much on the lasers, and you setup the potential for other races to be able to use them just as well as Amarr, creating unbalance by having fits that aren't expected and planned for.

- Increase the cap recharge or total cap too much on Amarr ships, and you will see fits such as 'unlimited neut' or 'unlimited mwd' fits that break one game mechanic or another. The amount of cap a ship uses for non-weapon functionality is also important.

- Put a cap use bonus on certain ships, and you simply make lasers only really viable on THOSE ships, but also remove the option for other useful bonuses. Basically as in the past, your wasting a bonus just to let Amarr do what every other race does without a bonus.

Those are just the three 'easy' options, and most suggested.


Being the only race not to be able to fit their owns weapons due to PG requirements (102% of PG for Tach's on Apoc and Abad) is a great place to start in my opinion. I'm not saying they should be able to run a tank, tackle, and MWD while firing, but being able to at least fit the damn weapons isn't asking much.

To address your first point, we already have that, Amarr's are fitting arty's to avoid the cap. Reduce the cap use to be closer to Gallente guns (not equal but certainly not triple the cap use) and increase Amarr's cap and recharge so we aren't forced to buffer tank and waste more and more mods on cap rechargers and PG mods that other races aren't.
Loki Vice
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1368 - 2013-04-16 21:17:34 UTC
I love how CCP Rise has just abandoned this thread completely, gotta love kil2
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#1369 - 2013-04-16 21:18:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
Avald Midular wrote:
Ruze wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
How about a conditional cap bonus such as +50% to total cap when fitting beam or pulse lasers.

That way it wil encourage laser use and make the hulls less attractive to people who want to put artillery on an amarr vessel (which makes my blood boil).

Personally I think the bonus should be 100% given the cap needs of amarr weapons, only then would we get equal skin in the game and last as long as our enemies before capping out.


Instead of gimmicky bonuses they could just fix them (not talking about slight tweaks that change nothing).


How do you mean 'fix them', because as I understand it, there are multiple problems here.

- Reduce the cap use too much on the lasers, and you setup the potential for other races to be able to use them just as well as Amarr, creating unbalance by having fits that aren't expected and planned for.

- Increase the cap recharge or total cap too much on Amarr ships, and you will see fits such as 'unlimited neut' or 'unlimited mwd' fits that break one game mechanic or another. The amount of cap a ship uses for non-weapon functionality is also important.

- Put a cap use bonus on certain ships, and you simply make lasers only really viable on THOSE ships, but also remove the option for other useful bonuses. Basically as in the past, your wasting a bonus just to let Amarr do what every other race does without a bonus.

Those are just the three 'easy' options, and most suggested.


Being the only race not to be able to fit their owns weapons due to PG requirements (102% of PG for Tach's on Apoc and Abad) is a great place to start in my opinion. I'm not saying they should be able to run a tank, tackle, and MWD while firing, but being able to at least fit the damn weapons isn't asking much.

To address your first point, we already have that, Amarr's are fitting arty's to avoid the cap. Reduce the cap use to be closer to Gallente guns (not equal but certainly not triple the cap use) and increase Amarr's cap and recharge so we aren't forced to buffer tank and waste more and more mods on cap rechargers and PG mods that other races aren't.


I think we're all in agreement on this subject, I have no problem though with lasers being used on the hulls of other races if they are tactically valuable. We all know how lasers should work, but for whatever reason they don't work that way in game and CCP seem very reluctant to change this in any fundamental way, that's why I suggested a bonus that only applies when those weapons are fitted. It's no different in principle to caldari getting optimal range bonuses that only benefit hybrid weapons so why not. Amarr guns getting a hefty cap use bonus of 100% as a fixed bonus seems fine to me, or even 20% per level so that a character with level 5 skills gets 100% bonus effectively doubling the cap reserves when fitting.

Coming back to the other point fixing lasers is easy

step 1 - reduce cap use to 1/3 at the very least
step 2 - vastly extend optimal range & tracking for most lasers (allowing easier kiting and sniping)
step 3 - reduce power needs of guns or increase power output of hulls.

That's it why CCP won't do something simple like this is beyond me.

I also take the view that a cap use bonus as it is currently implemented in the game is not a real bonus, but we've all got to live with it, so what can you do sigh...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1370 - 2013-04-16 21:30:50 UTC
Quote:
How do you mean 'fix them', because as I understand it, there are multiple problems here.

- Reduce the cap use too much on the lasers, and you setup the potential for other races to be able to use them just as well as Amarr, creating unbalance by having fits that aren't expected and planned for.

- Increase the cap recharge or total cap too much on Amarr ships, and you will see fits such as 'unlimited neut' or 'unlimited mwd' fits that break one game mechanic or another. The amount of cap a ship uses for non-weapon functionality is also important.

- Put a cap use bonus on certain ships, and you simply make lasers only really viable on THOSE ships, but also remove the option for other useful bonuses. Basically as in the past, your wasting a bonus just to let Amarr do what every other race does without a bonus.

Those are just the three 'easy' options, and most suggested.


First of all, it's high time to slay that sacred cow. Guess what? Other race's guns, specifically the capless ones, are plenty viable on other hulls, as several have demonstrated it can even be mathematically efficient to fit artillery on Amarr ships. (because arty is just that broken folks)

Secondly, if one of those is too much, and I agree that boosting standard Amarr cap to that level would be nuts, then just use a mixture of #1 and #2. Too easy, a 20% cap boost to Amarr ships is hardly game breaking (and might bring actually make our ships not auto lose to neuts), combined with a 20-30% reduction to laser cap use would bring these right into line, and stop the unnecessary crippling of Amarr boats.

Or heck, we can get creative, and add secondary bonuses. You know, like Stealth Bombers have. -100% reduction to Cloak CPU use, or whatever that cute little bonus is to their hull. Because an actual hull bonus is the bonus that increases with skill level, everything else simply comes with that ship class. If you only get two "X per level" bonuses, then that is what it should be measured by.

And before people cry that this functionally makes every Amarr ship have T2 level bonuses, I have two rebuttals. Firstly, even CCP themselves already admit this is a special case and they have been treating as such for years. Secondly, some T1 ships already have additional hull bonuses, "can fit warfare links" from BCs being a prime one, so the precedent is already set.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1371 - 2013-04-16 21:37:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
How do you mean 'fix them', because as I understand it, there are multiple problems here.

- Reduce the cap use too much on the lasers, and you setup the potential for other races to be able to use them just as well as Amarr, creating unbalance by having fits that aren't expected and planned for.

- Increase the cap recharge or total cap too much on Amarr ships, and you will see fits such as 'unlimited neut' or 'unlimited mwd' fits that break one game mechanic or another. The amount of cap a ship uses for non-weapon functionality is also important.

- Put a cap use bonus on certain ships, and you simply make lasers only really viable on THOSE ships, but also remove the option for other useful bonuses. Basically as in the past, your wasting a bonus just to let Amarr do what every other race does without a bonus.

Those are just the three 'easy' options, and most suggested.


First of all, it's high time to slay that sacred cow. Guess what? Other race's guns, specifically the capless ones, are plenty viable on other hulls, as several have demonstrated it can even be mathematically efficient to fit artillery on Amarr ships. (because arty is just that broken folks)

Secondly, if one of those is too much, and I agree that boosting standard Amarr cap to that level would be nuts, then just use a mixture of #1 and #2. Too easy, a 20% cap boost to Amarr ships is hardly game breaking (and might bring actually make our ships not auto lose to neuts), combined with a 20-30% reduction to laser cap use would bring these right into line, and stop the unnecessary crippling of Amarr boats.

Or heck, we can get creative, and add secondary bonuses. You know, like Stealth Bombers have. -100% reduction to Cloak CPU use, or whatever that cute little bonus is to their hull. Because an actual hull bonus is the bonus that increases with skill level, everything else simply comes with that ship class. If you only get two "X per level" bonuses, then that is what it should be measured by.

And before people cry that this functionally makes every Amarr ship have T2 level bonuses, I have two rebuttals. Firstly, even CCP themselves already admit this is a special case and they have been treating as such for years. Secondly, some T1 ships already have additional hull bonuses, "can fit warfare links" from BCs being a prime one, so the precedent is already set.


So your suggesting, across the board, give amarr ships a -50% cap use for energy turret bonus (number being arbitrary)?

And what would be the maximum possible fallout of going the other way, reducing the turret energy use till it is less than double that of hybrids, instead of double to triple?

What I'm saying is theorycraft. If we went with a blanket laser change like that, what ship would become such a beast fitting lasers that it proves the system broken?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1372 - 2013-04-16 21:43:41 UTC
Quote:
So your suggesting, across the board, give amarr ships a -50% cap use for energy turret bonus (number being arbitrary)?

And what would be the maximum possible fallout of going the other way, reducing the turret energy use till it is less than double that of hybrids, instead of double to triple?

What I'm saying is theorycraft. If we went with a blanket laser change like that, what ship would become such a beast fitting lasers that it proves the system broken?


I am suggesting giving Amarr a 20% boost of maximum cap, and a 30% boost to cap use. Taken together they don't equal 50% total boost, no. The two are not additive. I am suggesting this as an alternative to slaying the sacred cow, and doing as you suggested and simply giving them a flat 50% cap use reduction.

Yes, they would still be the highest cap using weapon.

And no, I have no idea of what ship could potentially abuse this, if any. But the prospect has always been greatly feared/avoided by CCP. For what reason, I do not know, unless it is a mere matter of RP. In which case, headslap time.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Brother Welcome
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1373 - 2013-04-16 21:53:44 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
You should've thrown the abaddon out the window instead.

I see you're also making them even more reliant on cap boosters. I disapprove.


Very disappointing change to the Abaddon.
Brother Welcome
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1374 - 2013-04-16 21:54:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Brother Welcome
misclick
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#1375 - 2013-04-16 22:02:03 UTC
It can't be rp, if it was then each ship would only be able to fit weaponry made by its originator race, which to be honest makes more sense on a technical level.

It has been known for a few years that ccp had a fondness for minmatar and to be honest I find their pro minmatar bias to be quite unprofessional.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#1376 - 2013-04-16 22:24:56 UTC
I want beam lasers that do consrant DPS without alpha!

Make pulse lasers the Long range alpha and beams short rnage high tracking with constant DPS output THEN you'll have proper laser boats!!

Closest I can get is an Omen fitted with Dual Light Beams and as many ROF mods as I can fit!!!!

Fix it CCP!!! then I might start flying BS's again! Twisted

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#1377 - 2013-04-16 22:27:57 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
I want beam lasers that do consrant DPS without alpha!

Make pulse lasers the Long range alpha and beams short rnage high tracking with constant DPS output THEN you'll have proper laser boats!!

Closest I can get is an Omen fitted with Dual Light Beams and as many ROF mods as I can fit!!!!

Fix it CCP!!! then I might start flying BS's again! Twisted


Wait ...

Did you happen to make a mistake and get beams and pulses mixed up there?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#1378 - 2013-04-16 22:28:07 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
It can't be rp, if it was then each ship would only be able to fit weaponry made by its originator race, which to be honest makes more sense on a technical level.

It has been known for a few years that ccp had a fondness for minmatar and to be honest I find their pro minmatar bias to be quite unprofessional.



I take it you've completely lived under stone since teircide started?!

The minmitar are no longer the king of the hill. (and never were if you knew what you were doing) Since teiricide started the other races have been getting much buffed ships yet the minnies get minor tweaks or even full blown nerfs (cane anyone).

Nowadays the playing field is much more level and you have to use your skill as a player to win more now.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1379 - 2013-04-16 22:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
I take it you've completely lived under stone since teircide started?!

The minmitar are no longer the king of the hill. (and never were if you knew what you were doing) Since teiricide started the other races have been getting much buffed ships yet the minnies get minor tweaks or even full blown nerfs (cane anyone).

Nowadays the playing field is much more level and you have to use your skill as a player to win more now.


Except in fleets, where arty is king, and will continue to be if this nerf to resists goes live. Yeah, they have been justifiably nerfed in a lot of their small gang ships. But aside from the Typhoon (and lets face it, that one was overdue), their battleships are pretty well untouched.

And knowing what you are doing will not prevent you from being popped with alpha. Unless you mean just not fighting against them. And if you tell me that Hurricane was not far and away the best BC, Rifter not the best Frigate, even if their enemy knew what he was doing, then you are deluding yourself. So yeah, "if you knew what you were doing" does not erase the fact that they held the spot for the most OP set of ships in two of the most popular categories. And not just by a small margin either, those two ships by themselves dominated the meta for years.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#1380 - 2013-04-16 22:34:55 UTC
Lol, I was speaking historically, things might be changing but minnatar are still op. Anyhow everyone knows that the most nerfed race in history are the caldari.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...