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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#381 - 2011-10-31 23:50:07 UTC
Dunmur wrote:
If your enemy is flying faster than you and out of your range you could have 100,000 dps and if you cannot hit him 100,000 x 0 is still 0

Well, um, this is actually true for all of the guns (as well as missiles and drones), not just blasters. So, what is your point? That all guns should have infinite range and tracking speed?
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#382 - 2011-10-31 23:53:14 UTC
I feel as if rails should get a bigger dmg boost. And blasters should get a range boost.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#383 - 2011-10-31 23:57:28 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
I feel as if rails should get a bigger dmg boost. And blasters should get a range boost.



At least with those changes my Cynabal autocanons will be buffed. It was time he was so underpowered ... Roll
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#384 - 2011-10-31 23:57:46 UTC
Digital Gaidin wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
What you just described is a Single situation where gallente are good and that is when you warp to 0 on top of your enemy, but wait at those ranges neuts would suck you dry and even at reduced cap blasters still use cap.

Every other situation is less dependent on YOUR skill as a pilot and requires the opponent to make a mistake which in my opinion makes it useless.

Do you spend your entire day ganking Curses and Ashimuu's? If someone fits a Neutralizer and you are in a cap-dependent ship, umm... good choice on their part?

Positioning yourself in your weapon system's range is as much dependent on you being smart as your opponent being dumb. In mortal combat, your prowess on the field of battle will be weighed and measured against your opponents. Give me the ship I described, pick any ship you want, start the combat at 1km away from each other, and I will own you. Position ourselves off grid from each other, give us a common objective, and lo and behold we might have a real fight on our hands. If I choose to fly blaster, I am making the assumption that I can and will be able to position myself within range of your ship. That's on me. If you make a mistake, you will just be making my job easier. Twisted

What is going to suck if the original proposed changes go through is that even if I get within range, there's no guarantee that my blaster ship will even own the field against a like-opponent, and/or get the job done before he is able to find a way to break range. Hence, why I fully endorse the following:

Digital Gaidin wrote:
2. Blasters and their Niche

Autocannons provide an immense amount of DPS, most notably with their ability to switch ammo types to what can punch a hole through hostile's tanks the best and hit out even past Pulse ranges. Even if blasters had a 10% advantage over projectiles, they don't have the ability to adapt to the situation and remain inferior.

How I would fix blasters: Give medium/large blasers about a 30%+ boost to damage, an optimal under web range, virtually no falloff, and ungodly tracking. A battleship should hit a cruiser afterburning with a single web under 10k at max traversal (maybe not for full). A cruiser the same with a frigate. A frigate, while MWDing, should be able to in a tight orbit hit full force against larger ships with small blasters, and/or remain effective against other frigates in a knife fight. Keep Gallente ships slow and fat (no change), and allow blasters to provide a zone of death around the fleet. Any hostile that enters that zone should effectively bend over and kiss its ass goodbye. That's a niche that is missing from EVE, and would fit nicely with teh blaster paradigm. Slow, Fat, and up close the deadliest motherf*cker you've ever seen.


What you are describing would be good for 1v1 or small group pvp only, good luck doing that in a larger fleet. Oh and unlike high-sec station games its kinda hard to warp out and warp back in at 0 when you have dicter bubbles in 0.0.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#385 - 2011-10-31 23:59:14 UTC
Dunmur wrote:

What you just described is a Single situation where gallente are good and that is when you warp to 0 on top of your enemy, but wait at those ranges neuts would suck you dry and even at reduced cap blasters still use cap.

Does every ship in the game fit neuts?

No? Well, then I guess you, too, are describing a Single situation - that is when you warp to 0 on top of your enemy and your enemy has neuts.

Digital Guidin wrote:

Do you spend your entire day ganking Curses and Ashimuu's? If someone fits a Neutralizer and you are in a cap-dependent ship, umm... good choice on their part?

lol
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#386 - 2011-10-31 23:59:20 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
If your enemy is flying faster than you and out of your range you could have 100,000 dps and if you cannot hit him 100,000 x 0 is still 0

Well, um, this is actually true for all of the guns (as well as missiles and drones), not just blasters. So, what is your point? That all guns should have infinite range and tracking speed?


my point is the shortest range ship, should be able to catch its target
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#387 - 2011-10-31 23:59:33 UTC
Also, I'd like to ask how the Talos is going to fit in. Part of my preponderance comes from the deployment schedule. Will the Talos deploy at the same time as hybrids? Will hybrids deploy before hand so this change doesn't mean anything? Is the talos being build with the change in mind?
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#388 - 2011-11-01 00:00:26 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
I feel as if rails should get a bigger dmg boost. And blasters should get a range boost.

If blasters get a range boost, Projectiles have insane range even if most of it is in falloff, and missiles being missiles, how do you see a range boost changing the landscape? You really want to nerf Amarr badly, don't you?

Rails getting a bigger damage boost? Again, what would be the point of Amarr weaponry?

Missiles have their niche. Projectiles do Alpha and cap warfare best. What you describe just took the advantages of Amarr (minus the fast reload time) and smacked them onto Gallente. Not a good choice, in my opinion.
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#389 - 2011-11-01 00:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
Dunmur wrote:
What you are describing would be good for 1v1 or small group pvp only, good luck doing that in a larger fleet. Oh and unlike high-sec station games its kinda hard to warp out and warp back in at 0 when you have dicter bubbles in 0.0.

I regularly warp in for bombing runs in very hostile environments surrounded by bubbles. Proper alignment for warp-ins is essential, and while hostiles bubbling their own fleet to protect from a warp-to-zero (or 30) will stop you from getting the absolute best warp-in, they just freaking bubbled themselves... Lol

Gallente shouldn't be a new FOTM that owns everything else. They should have their tactics that, when the hostiles are forced to fight on their terms, the Gallente should win hands down. Caldari missile fleets have this. Amarr AHAC and Hellcat fleets have this. Minmatar Alpha fleets have this. Gallente... Roll

Amarr and Minmatar DPS curves fight it out for the mid-range combat, and Missile damage and Artillery owns long range. Blasters have their niche in close range, and that is where they should be insanely deadly.

Regarding 1v1 vs. Nullsec, the active bonuses are very much geared towards smaller gang or 1v1 combat. I would fully expect Nullsec gank fleets to NOT fly Gallente if they were chasing down whelpfleets, LR Canes, or Drake Armies, but against Hellcats and/or other Battleship heavy fleets... if a warp-in can be achieved (or catch them on a jump in), a Blaster fleet as I described could be insanely deadly. Currently Alpha is required to overcome repping, but this might be the one DPS alternative to break that mold. I'm curious if CCP is even paying attention, but something like this could really make for some changes to the current uber-tanked or high-alpha fleets everyone flies today.
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Also, I'd like to ask how the Talos is going to fit in. Part of my preponderance comes from the deployment schedule. Will the Talos deploy at the same time as hybrids? Will hybrids deploy before hand so this change doesn't mean anything? Is the talos being build with the change in mind?

T3 BC's are all about breaking the mold. If Gallente ships are fat and slow while being insanely deadly at close range, the Talos becomes the Fast but paper thin deadly at close range ship. Especially with the design being slightly un-Gallente, it fits in perfectly with not only its role but its tactics-shift away from other blaster boats.

Just my thoughts. Smile
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#390 - 2011-11-01 00:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkAegix
Sizeof Void wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
If your enemy is flying faster than you and out of your range you could have 100,000 dps and if you cannot hit him 100,000 x 0 is still 0

Well, um, this is actually true for all of the guns (as well as missiles and drones), not just blasters. So, what is your point? That all guns should have infinite range and tracking speed?

Wrong! Try again!
Other weapons operate further than the warp disruptor range of 24km.
A Minmatar ship could kite a Gallente one at 23km. The Gallente one will be doing next to no DPS, and die a slow and painful death.

In an engagement where the the enemy has a faster ship (Read: Almost all the time) and are using railguns, arties, autocannons, pulse lasers, beam lasers, guided or unguided missiles you'll find that blasters will lose every single time.
Amro One
One.
#391 - 2011-11-01 00:14:47 UTC
I cant fit hybrids on my mimitar ships.

No need to train hybrids.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#392 - 2011-11-01 00:20:03 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Tristan North wrote:
Please specify in that blog if it is an Agility Nerf or Agility Buff.
Most players are confused about it.


The agility change is an agility buff. The ships will be more agile.


Many thanks for clarifying this , had my head hurting for a while that one ^_^
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#393 - 2011-11-01 00:21:18 UTC
Digital Gaidin wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
What you are describing would be good for 1v1 or small group pvp only, good luck doing that in a larger fleet. Oh and unlike high-sec station games its kinda hard to warp out and warp back in at 0 when you have dicter bubbles in 0.0.

I regularly warp in for bombing runs in very hostile environments surrounded by bubbles. Proper alignment for warp-ins is essential, and while hostiles bubbling their own fleet to protect from a warp-to-zero (or 30) will stop you from getting the absolute best warp-in, they just freaking bubbled themselves... Lol

Gallente shouldn't be a new FOTM that owns everything else. They should have their tactics that, when the hostiles are forced to fight on their terms, the Gallente should win hands down. Caldari missile fleets have this. Amarr AHAC and Hellcat fleets have this. Minmatar Alpha fleets have this. Gallente... Roll

Amarr and Minmatar DPS curves fight it out for the mid-range combat, and Missile damage and Artillery owns long range. Blasters have their niche in close range, and that is where they should be insanely deadly.
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Also, I'd like to ask how the Talos is going to fit in. Part of my preponderance comes from the deployment schedule. Will the Talos deploy at the same time as hybrids? Will hybrids deploy before hand so this change doesn't mean anything? Is the talos being build with the change in mind?

T3 BC's are all about breaking the mold. If Gallente ships are fat and slow while being insanely deadly at close range, the Talos becomes the Fast but paper thin deadly at close range ship. Especially with the design being slightly un-Gallente, it fits in perfectly with not only its role but its tactics-shift away from other blaster boats.

Just my thoughts. Smile


I still don't think these changes are gonna make much of a difference the hybrids lack the versatility/utility of the other guns. Yes they have their perks but in pvp versatility trumps all.

They can ether buff blasters by giving them more range but this will just cause the differences in the gun types to blur

or

They can significantly buff the speed on blaster boats

or

They can ...GASP... nerf autocannons/pulse lasers to where they have a damn hard time tracking stuff in blaster ranges

Otherwise they have given no real incentive for people to switch to using blasters.
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#394 - 2011-11-01 00:21:20 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
If your enemy is flying faster than you and out of your range you could have 100,000 dps and if you cannot hit him 100,000 x 0 is still 0

Well, um, this is actually true for all of the guns (as well as missiles and drones), not just blasters. So, what is your point? That all guns should have infinite range and tracking speed?

Wrong! Try again!
Other weapons operate further than the warp disruptor range of 24km.
A Minmatar ship could kite a Gallente one at 23km. The Gallente one will be doing next to no DPS, and die a slow and painful death.

In an engagement where the the enemy has a faster ship (Read: Almost all the time) and are using railguns, arties, autocannons, pulse lasers, beam lasers, guided or unguided missiles blasters will lose every single time.

*GASP*

My **INSERT_SHIP_TYPE_HERE** doesn't work at 23km! FIX ME!

If someone is orbiting a blaster ship at 23km and the blaster pilot doesn't have a means to defend himself, he deserves to die... regardless of what changes go through. Name one situation where a blaster ship will be located against a single tackler and wouldn't have a means of escape within 60 seconds (via jump, breaking 24km range, docking, ECM drone jam got a cycle off, etc.).
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#395 - 2011-11-01 00:22:25 UTC
ITT:

General consensus that the hybrid changes are good but are akin to weeing into the wind when compared to the overwhelming superiority of projectiles in their current states.

General agreement that one weapon system is towering over the others, ergo normal balancing techniques should apply:
Projectiles should feel the nerf bat. Preferably delivered by TomB or Oveur as they're the biggest hitters and they haven't had a chance to swing it for a while..
Yvan Ratamnim
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#396 - 2011-11-01 00:23:39 UTC
CCP Tallest come on, read this thread, you can obviously see that 99% of people see this as NOT ENOUGH BY A LONGSHOT
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#397 - 2011-11-01 00:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
Dunmur wrote:

I still don't think these changes are gonna make much of a difference the hybrids lack the versatility/utility of the other guns. Yes they have their perks but in pvp versatility trumps all.

They can ether buff blasters by giving them more range but this will just cause the differences in the gun types to blur

or

They can significantly buff the speed on blaster boats

or

They can ...GASP... nerf autocannons/pulse lasers to where they have a damn hard time tracking stuff in blaster ranges

Otherwise they have given no real incentive for people to switch to using blasters.

Or they could do what I've been saying for 2 pages now that you conveniently left off your list. Roll

We don't need *another* versatile weapons system. Artillery can't track worth hell. Autocannons are very versatile. Pulses are only good if you can use Scorch, else hope you are in blaster range. Beams and Railguns suck because they can't get the job done in real 'verse situations. Blasters currently suck but might not soon. Heavy Missiles are great if you have an army of them impacting at the same time, and are under 84km. Short range missiles are decent when used properly.

No one excels in the 10km and under range right now. Blaster ships don't need to be a jack of all trades (like Autocannons, T2 Pulses, or Heavy missiles), but they do need to have a purpose on the battlefield. They might not be good for all situations (few ships are, and usually only completented by support ships), but they should be damn good at something. If you are flying Gallente and need something to mission run in, either MWD after your targets and blast them or use Railguns and deal with fast movers using drones. This is the perfect opportunity for a weapon system to be designed to fill a void, and it would be a shame if it came off mediocre to appeal to the "I want this one system to do everything" crowd.
Yvan Ratamnim
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#398 - 2011-11-01 00:27:22 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Dunmur wrote:

What you just described is a Single situation where gallente are good and that is when you warp to 0 on top of your enemy, but wait at those ranges neuts would suck you dry and even at reduced cap blasters still use cap.

Does every ship in the game fit neuts?

No? Well, then I guess you, too, are describing a Single situation - that is when you warp to 0 on top of your enemy and your enemy has neuts.

Digital Guidin wrote:

Do you spend your entire day ganking Curses and Ashimuu's? If someone fits a Neutralizer and you are in a cap-dependent ship, umm... good choice on their part?

lol


LMAO so what your saying is its ok for hurricane to still be the do-all able to kill every gallante ship right? as i can fit autos and 2 medium neuts on there and destroy every gallante ship with this buff as it stands (maybe not the talos but it'd be close)
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#399 - 2011-11-01 00:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
Yvan Ratamnim wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Dunmur wrote:

What you just described is a Single situation where gallente are good and that is when you warp to 0 on top of your enemy, but wait at those ranges neuts would suck you dry and even at reduced cap blasters still use cap.

Does every ship in the game fit neuts?

No? Well, then I guess you, too, are describing a Single situation - that is when you warp to 0 on top of your enemy and your enemy has neuts.

Digital Guidin wrote:

Do you spend your entire day ganking Curses and Ashimuu's? If someone fits a Neutralizer and you are in a cap-dependent ship, umm... good choice on their part?

lol


LMAO so what your saying is its ok for hurricane to still be the do-all able to kill every gallante ship right? as i can fit autos and 2 medium neuts on there and destroy every gallante ship with this buff as it stands (maybe not the talos but it'd be close)

Put forward my proposed change, get within Neutralizer range, and lets see who wins Twisted

One dead Hurricane coming up... Lol

--- Oh wait, this is on a fleet scale? ---

You get within range for neutralizers, and you die... so you pull range... better not get past 50km... Twisted
oldmanst4r
oldmanst4r's Corporation
#400 - 2011-11-01 00:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: oldmanst4r
In my opinion, there are three main issues with blasters

Not that much more ]damage than other turrets even in optimal circumstances and...

They are combined with slow-arse ships and have no range.

In order to fix these problems you need to buff two out of three

1. Ship speed

2. Damage (inc tracking)

3. Range

Now Amarr already have the damage/range niche so really a buff to optimal and damage would really just make amarr the worse gallente which no one wants.

On the other hand, buffing the base speed/agility of gallente ships makes them start moving over onto the minmatar niche which isn't great either because gallente ships don't need to kite they need apply dps.

So what's my idea:

Gallente:

Every ship that can fit a blaster should get

1. Mwd Speed Bonus

2. Agility penalty when using mwd

Essentially making it such that with good piloting you should be able to catch even a minmatar pilot who isn't on his toes. Although since blasters use cap you'll have to be careful or you'll cap out before you catch him and won't be able to use your weapons.

Caldari:

1. Railgun damage bonus

Caldari platforms are supposed to be rail platforms so just give them crazy good rails. I think any Rokh pilot would trade his 50% range bonus for a 37.5% damage bonus.

Lastly

Blasters should get the following buff

+20% damage

+37.5% tracking

This makes both gallente and caldari significantly more powerful while leaving them both with significant weaknesses. Caldari rail boats will still be slow and easy to catch, with only range as a buffer.

Gallente ships will be fast with mwd on but will have a difficult time maneuvering to catch minmatar ships. They will have fantastic damage within web range but will be vulnerable to cap warfare and have no damage type flexibility.

Caveat: numbers may be off, and this is just my opinion.