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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#501 - 2013-04-13 19:19:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Vibramycin wrote:
My point was that most of the time you will not have the luxury of being able to take advantage of a small sig; my phrasing of "HIGHLY situational" was euphamistic for "rarely relevant" and that's true. Seriously, go to EFT, and compare two BSs with 60mm sig difference. Tell me that'll matter in more than one engagement out of 100. I was looking at something like a 590 shield rokh vs a 400 armor mega--a MUCH bigger difference than you're discussing. The attacking BS had huge window in which they did at least 95% of their damage to the smaller sig. There was a range of a few KM--max, with a circular orbit!--when the mega was under the guns of the shooter and the rokh wasn't. The mega got a free bonus, too, being faster than the rokh, which I didn't correct for. Sig is a great mechanic; it is excellent for making frigs hard to hit by BS, yet still requiring pilot skill out of frig. It is hardly ever a deciding factor in bs vs. bs.


If your talking about Auto cannons, pulse lasers, etc, then it is obviously difficult, and almost impossible to outrun the tracking on those guns with another BS. But then you have the option to kite them instead if your fitted in an agile sniper fit. But its another story when your looking at long range artillery, beam lasers etc, you have quite a large window in which you can mitigate more than half their damage.

And then we are not even mentioning missiles, cruise missile and torps will do significantly lower damage to a ship with sig at sub 350 going at around 500m/s +
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#502 - 2013-04-13 19:21:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Skirmish links will lower the sig radius further. Halo implants (hi low sec!) will do the same. With both - that Typhoon and Tempest will actually sit at 165m and 180m respectively.


Exactly this also. Plus you'll have an even lower sig if their is a ragnarok on the field boosting. Hopefully when CCP rework Titans this might become more common.
Randy Wray
Heinous Peinus
#503 - 2013-04-13 21:17:30 UTC
It seems to me that except for capital warfare situations the updated tempest is actually worse than it was before.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray
Vibramycin
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#504 - 2013-04-13 21:43:51 UTC
I checked against both scorch-using hellcats and 425 rokhs. Of course the useful window of smaller sig is bigger on the rokhs, but not by all that much, and to get there, you have to cross seriously 40-50km of Rokhs doing full damage (if they get a warpin at their optimal). If you get a warpin at zero on the rokhs, the sig is again worthless as any ship (nearly regardless of sig) will be under their guns.

Heh, yes, I was indeed not even mentioning torps/cruise missiles... I'm going to call that a very minor oversight for large scale PVP ;)

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Vibramycin wrote:
My point was that most of the time you will not have the luxury of being able to take advantage of a small sig; my phrasing of "HIGHLY situational" was euphamistic for "rarely relevant" and that's true. Seriously, go to EFT, and compare two BSs with 60mm sig difference. Tell me that'll matter in more than one engagement out of 100. I was looking at something like a 590 shield rokh vs a 400 armor mega--a MUCH bigger difference than you're discussing. The attacking BS had huge window in which they did at least 95% of their damage to the smaller sig. There was a range of a few KM--max, with a circular orbit!--when the mega was under the guns of the shooter and the rokh wasn't. The mega got a free bonus, too, being faster than the rokh, which I didn't correct for. Sig is a great mechanic; it is excellent for making frigs hard to hit by BS, yet still requiring pilot skill out of frig. It is hardly ever a deciding factor in bs vs. bs.


If your talking about Auto cannons, pulse lasers, etc, then it is obviously difficult, and almost impossible to outrun the tracking on those guns with another BS. But then you have the option to kite them instead if your fitted in an agile sniper fit. But its another story when your looking at long range artillery, beam lasers etc, you have quite a large window in which you can mitigate more than half their damage.

And then we are not even mentioning missiles, cruise missile and torps will do significantly lower damage to a ship with sig at sub 350 going at around 500m/s +
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#505 - 2013-04-13 22:02:00 UTC
I have been dusting off some old fits on the Tempest (while at work... hehehe) and checking it out with the new PG. Some quick observations-

The shield buffered Tempest comes up at LEAST 20k EHP short vs. a similarly fitted Maelstrom.
A pure gank Tempest (800 AC, Torps, flight of Valkyries, gyro x 3) will do 1200 DPS normal and 1300 overheated.
There is no arty fit for the Tempest that justifies it over the Mael.

Here is the thing- The Maelstrom is your go to for Projectiles - arty in particular- and shield tanking. The Typhoon has great speed, torp DPS, and armor tanking to offer. The Tempest offers unpredictability and utility. It's pretty clear that many don't regard that as enough.

I'll keep this real simple. Rather then mess with slots, bonuses, or HP- change the drone bay. Increase it to at least 125m^3. This will let armor tankers pad their DPS a bit. It would give shield tankers a bit more firepower to justify the lack of EHP compared to the Mael. Lastly it gives - get this - utility to the last Swiss Army knife BS in the Minmatar That is all.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#506 - 2013-04-13 22:04:24 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I have been dusting off some old fits on the Tempest (while at work... hehehe) and checking it out with the new PG. Some quick observations-

The shield buffered Tempest comes up at LEAST 20k EHP short vs. a similarly fitted Maelstrom.
A pure gank Tempest (800 AC, Torps, flight of Valkyries, gyro x 3) will do 1200 DPS normal and 1300 overheated.
There is no arty fit for the Tempest that justifies it over the Mael.

Here is the thing- The Maelstrom is your go to for Projectiles - arty in particular- and shield tanking. The Typhoon has great speed, torp DPS, and armor tanking to offer. The Tempest offers unpredictability and utility. It's pretty clear that many don't regard that as enough.

I'll keep this real simple. Rather then mess with slots, bonuses, or HP- change the drone bay. Increase it to at least 125m^3. This will let armor tankers pad their DPS a bit. It would give shield tankers a bit more firepower to justify the lack of EHP compared to the Mael. Lastly it gives - get this - utility to the last Swiss Army knife BS in the Minmatar That is all.


Hmm, interesting idea actually. Perhaps then it could take over the current role of the Typhoon pretty nicely whilst the typhoon focuses on missiles.
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#507 - 2013-04-13 22:24:09 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Hmm, interesting idea actually. Perhaps then it could take over the current role of the Typhoon pretty nicely whilst the typhoon focuses on missiles.


Where has this sudden belief that we have to have missile ships everywhere come from? Are we Caldariatars or something?
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#508 - 2013-04-13 22:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
For starters, I get the vibe that only the drone races are getting 5 heavies now. There are no Minmatar or Caldari spec ships that can run then (not including faction). I don't think an extra 100dps (maximum) from 5 heavies would make as big a difference as you'd think, and 4 unbonused heavies are barely a gain over a 221 configuration.

The ships weakness is in tanking potential.

Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Hmm, interesting idea actually. Perhaps then it could take over the current role of the Typhoon pretty nicely whilst the typhoon focuses on missiles.


Where has this sudden belief that we have to have missile ships everywhere come from? Are we Caldariatars or something?


The Tempest has had 4 missile hardpoints since the beginning of time.
People simply don't use the extra highs as torps.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#509 - 2013-04-13 22:44:58 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

The Tempest has had 4 missile hardpoints since the beginning of time.
People simply don't use the extra highs as torps.


True, but luckily they haven't tried turning it into a missile boat yet. Sic. Roll
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#510 - 2013-04-13 23:19:07 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
For starters, I get the vibe that only the drone races are getting 5 heavies now. There are no Minmatar or Caldari spec ships that can run then (not including faction). I don't think an extra 100dps (maximum) from 5 heavies would make as big a difference as you'd think, and 4 unbonused heavies are barely a gain over a 221 configuration.

The ships weakness is in tanking potential.

Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Hmm, interesting idea actually. Perhaps then it could take over the current role of the Typhoon pretty nicely whilst the typhoon focuses on missiles.


Where has this sudden belief that we have to have missile ships everywhere come from? Are we Caldariatars or something?


The Tempest has had 4 missile hardpoints since the beginning of time.
People simply don't use the extra highs as torps.


If a ship has a 75m^3 drone bay I'm usually going to go with a flight of mediums and a flight of lights. You're right with 100 DPS overall - but I value being practical - mediums for dps and lights for frigate defense.

Let me throw a fit at you for giggles:

Tempest -

High:
650mm II x 6 - short range faction
Malkuth Torpedo Launcher x 2 - faction
Mid:
Prototype 100MN MWD
Heavy Cap Booster II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor x 2
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
Internal Force Field Array
EANM II
LAAR
LAR II
Gyro II
Rigs:
Large Armor Nano Pump x 2
Large Armor Nanobot Accelerator

Drones - Flight of Valkyries and flight of Warriors

The active tank reps 858 unheated and 1110 overheated. The DPS is only 830 unheated though - 927 OH. Needless to say that's low for a BS. If the Tempest were to have a larger dronebay -125m^3 - I'd for this example load up sentries in the form of Gardes. My outgoing DPS is now 1001 normal and 1098 OH. A larger dronebay makes the ship.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#511 - 2013-04-13 23:32:42 UTC
unconvinced.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Onnen Mentar
Murientor Tribe
#512 - 2013-04-14 01:45:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Onnen Mentar
So, after a lot more thinking... No matter how much you try to get around it, the typhoon is nothing but a big bellicose, so might as well make it a proper disruption BS. Amarr got theirs, so I see no reason why the Typhoon couldn't be the Minmatar one.

Changes to suggested typhoon:
- remove ALL drones
- add another medium slot
- add target painter bonus instead of explosion velocity
- add racial damage bonus

Suggested tempest changes:
- remove all drones
- add another low slot
- rebalance medium range t1 projectile ammo

Find shameless link to my "minmatar flavor" post below for more background on these suggestions:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=225308&find=unread

Minmatar Balancing, 3 suggestions.
Poppazzard
Wolfpack Inc.
#513 - 2013-04-14 04:17:00 UTC
I LOVE EVE and I chose to play a race (Minmatar) because they do guns and fire lumps of metal around the sky.

Stop levelling the playing field..... If I want to shoot missiles I'll train and buy Caldari Already feeling aggrieved at the loss of my Cyclone AC fit mini beast

Soon the only reason to choose a race on a new character will be the colour scheme of the ships ! Bah humbug


I'm not saying tweaks and squeaks aren't needed to maintain a balanced game but if you remove individuality of the race why have them :P
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#514 - 2013-04-14 05:01:40 UTC
Poppazzard wrote:
I LOVE EVE and I chose to play a race (Minmatar) because they do guns and fire lumps of metal around the sky.

Stop levelling the playing field..... If I want to shoot missiles I'll train and buy Caldari Already feeling aggrieved at the loss of my Cyclone AC fit mini beast

Soon the only reason to choose a race on a new character will be the colour scheme of the ships ! Bah humbug


I'm not saying tweaks and squeaks aren't needed to maintain a balanced game but if you remove individuality of the race why have them :P




It's been a very long time since it could be said with a straight face. Welcome to Minmatar. We're Eve on hard mode. You have to train everything. We armor tank and shield tank. We shoot projectiles, missiles, and have decent sized drone bays to boot. Didn't you notice all the utility highs on the Minmatar ships are also missile slots? Now that the other races are being brought up you actually have more of a decision as to what you put in those slots.

Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#515 - 2013-04-14 06:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Onnen Mentar wrote:
So, after a lot more thinking... No matter how much you try to get around it, the typhoon is nothing but a big bellicose, so might as well make it a proper disruption BS. Amarr got theirs, so I see no reason why the Typhoon couldn't be the Minmatar one.

Changes to suggested typhoon:
- remove ALL drones
- add another medium slot
- add target painter bonus instead of explosion velocity
- add racial damage bonus

Suggested tempest changes:
- remove all drones
- add another low slot
- rebalance medium range t1 projectile ammo

Find shameless link to my "minmatar flavor" post below for more background on these suggestions:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=225308&find=unread


The problem with this suggestion is that BS always have to be equipped with at least a modest bandwidth for light drones to take out frigates. Also following your suggestions there would mean that Caldari ships would have more drones that Minmatar ones. In terms of drone superiority it should go; Gallente > Amarr > Minmatar > Caldari.

I like your idea for the Typhoon though except for the drone part. Give it a target painter bonus, and then remove the high slot and swap it for another mid slot. Then Tempest can become the new ultra versatile phoon, and Typhoon becomes a different beast altogether.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#516 - 2013-04-14 10:28:10 UTC
Peopel that do not realize the power of sig radius are EFT warriors not eve players.

Of course against balsters signature will not be much, you are talking about he highest tracking weapons. But check a tempest orbiting an armageddon (curret type) with pulses. It can avoid like 70% of the geddon damage. Try to do the same with a Rokh and you have completely different scenario.

Also fightign agaisnt dreads the sginatuer advantage becomes MUCH MUCH more relevant. 2-3 K dps is irrelevant when a dread is firign t you.. not being hit is the only thing that can make you live a bit more.


But I still woudl like tempest to have .11 agility 125 M speed and CURRENT signature (the one we have in TQ) .

If you want EHP use the maelstrom, it will always defeat the tempest ont hat role, or even better use the abaddon. Do not try to push all battleships in the same fightign brick style. We do not ened ammarr ship in minmatar line.

The ony problem temepst have is 2 damage bonus to free slots from weapons, but 2 free highs are much less powerful than 1 high and 1 low or 1 high aand 1 mid like th hyperion got.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#517 - 2013-04-14 10:30:15 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Onnen Mentar wrote:
So, after a lot more thinking... No matter how much you try to get around it, the typhoon is nothing but a big bellicose, so might as well make it a proper disruption BS. Amarr got theirs, so I see no reason why the Typhoon couldn't be the Minmatar one.

Changes to suggested typhoon:
- remove ALL drones
- add another medium slot
- add target painter bonus instead of explosion velocity
- add racial damage bonus

Suggested tempest changes:
- remove all drones
- add another low slot
- rebalance medium range t1 projectile ammo

Find shameless link to my "minmatar flavor" post below for more background on these suggestions:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=225308&find=unread


The problem with this suggestion is that BS always have to be equipped with at least a modest bandwidth for light drones to take out frigates. Also following your suggestions there would mean that Caldari ships would have more drones that Minmatar ones. In terms of drone superiority it should go; Gallente > Amarr > Minmatar > Caldari.

I like your idea for the Typhoon though except for the drone part. Give it a target painter bonus, and then remove the high slot and swap it for another mid slot. Then Tempest can become the new ultra versatile phoon, and Typhoon becomes a different beast altogether.



Target painter bonus is hrorible idea. Target paitner bonus is already present on smaller ships. Target paitner is mUHC MUHC more relevant there, where the smaller ships also help the larger ships to lock faster. Wasting a battleship slot to do somethign any cheap frigate can do is wastign power of your fleet.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Laura Belle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#518 - 2013-04-14 10:31:53 UTC
you were talking about typhoon versatility and cut down drastically the drone bay.
i understand the cutting of the bandwidth but it looks to me that the phoon is loosing too much of its previous versatility for turning into a single roll or 1-2 roll standard combat BS.

since there are other models that are better for this task... just saying
Weezdion Garsk
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#519 - 2013-04-14 10:59:15 UTC
As i seen some more people suggested this change for typhoon and I think it's a good way to go to change explosion velocity bonus to some target painter bonus (optimal, amount?!), so it is more usefull for whole fleet.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#520 - 2013-04-14 11:10:58 UTC
Weezdion Garsk wrote:
As i seen some more people suggested this change for typhoon and I think it's a good way to go to change explosion velocity bonus to some target painter bonus (optimal, amount?!), so it is more usefull for whole fleet.


Unless it gets neuted and will use a mid slot to do what differently exactly?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high