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Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 20
Gargantoi Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State Likes received: 20	#481 - 2013-04-13 06:50:07 UTC leave the typhoon as it curently is fmlg with the 5 heavy drones 5% to rate of fire to guns and 5% to missile launcher ...and just add 1 more med slot to it and thats that ..no need to change the bonus of the ship and make it a missile boat ...srsly ..Leave it as it is and just add +1 more med slot and thats that ..job done

Kagura Nikon

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 2,148

#482 - 2013-04-13 09:30:33 UTC

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

The Typhoon is lower as a base, yes, but it also has an extra low slot (greater armor tank).
So despite having less armor to start off with, its a higher damage ship (torps+heavies) with more low slots.
On top of it all, THAT ship has absurd enough speed, damage projection, and signature to make its nanoing capability worthwhile. It's basically a fat battlecruiser, or a really high dps Drake.

On one hand you are saying the typhoon is able to nano and has absurd speed, yet the tempest has only 20 extra signature radius, and only 10m/s slower, yet your saying it is useless. Why not argue to bring the Tempest to the Typhoon levels then if that is what you believe. It sounds to me as though you have your mind set on making the Tempest a heavy combat ship where it will always be outclassed by the maeltrom.

Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

The were reduced (along with signature) because the collective was complaining that it wasn't a crappy 6 mid shield tanker.

I don't recall many people complaining it wasn't a shield tanker. There have been a couple asking for an extra mid, or an extra low, which tells me that the slot layout is just about right.

What we are complaining is that OTHER battleship receive a reduction of turrets to 6 and a super bonus to make those worth as a full rack of guns and still remain with a second ship bonus.. all to get an extra low slot.

The tempest need to use 2 of his bonuses to compensate for that turret missing AND it doe snto get the extra low slot. THat is hwy tempest woudl bea HUGE fail as a cobmat ship unless its bonuses are changed completely

"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"

Komodo Askold

Strategic Exploration and Development Corp

Silent Company

Likes received: 347

#483 - 2013-04-13 10:59:20 UTC | Edited by: Komodo Askold

Liastr wrote:

Komodo Askold wrote:

Well, these changes seem quite good... I'll miss the Typhoon's large drone bay though...

Likewise. I would've almost preferred seeing the Typhoon as a combat drone boat with missiles or guns as secondary. Maybe a resistance bonus + drone damage/hp bonus. I get this is a way-off idea though.

I can see the logic behind the proposed changes, but would it really hurt to keep the bigger drone bay? Even with a limited bandwidth?

Well, right now Minmatar are not a drone race, as Gallente or Amarr do. As the changes apply, the Typhoon will become an armor missile boat with a quite big drone bay (100m3 are not that bad), something like an inverted Prophecy. It's a nice role, but yeah, keeping the old 175m3 or at least 150m3 or even 125m3 wouldn't hurt I guess... After all, those drones will not be bonused, and when looking at the Typhoon's front and seeing that massive hangar seems like coherent. Having a big drone bay makes it different to other BS', and somehow keeps part of its old 3-weapon-systems style.

EDIT: after reading all the missile boat dislike in this topic, I have to notice everyone CCP also said they will be tweaking cruise missiles and torpedoes too (check the OP), so the final look of the Typhoon, compared to other Minmatar BS' and the Raven, is still in the air; I'm sure there will be a clear difference:

CCP Rise wrote:

It should also be mentioned that we hope to have a look at cruise missiles and torpedos in time for the summer expansion as well.

And well, it's about likings: I do like the idea of the Typhoon as a missile boat with drones, as I like the Tempest and the Maelstrom to be gun boats; others might prefer it as a gun boat: for those, I urge them to read the OP again:

CCP Rise wrote:

If you’re one of those that has cherished access to projectiles, missiles, and drones, we would encourage you to remember that the Navy battleships, which will get looked at soon, will likely be able to fill some spaces created by the tech 1 rebalance.

So, be patient: I'm sure we'll get a new Typhoon that will appeal everyone. Especially if CCP also redesigns a bit its model :3

PIE Inc. Khimi Harar 917
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Khimi Harar Likes received: 917	#484 - 2013-04-13 11:19:33 UTC That is not a hangar opening, but rather the fuel cap covering the WD-40 tanks .. hence the size .. also explains the general shape of the ship .. big 'ol can


Komodo Askold Strategic Exploration and Development Corp Silent Company Likes received: 347	#485 - 2013-04-13 11:28:10 UTC Veshta Yoshida wrote: That is not a hangar opening, but rather the fuel cap covering the WD-40 tanks .. hence the size .. also explains the general shape of the ship .. big 'ol can Thank you for the healthy ROFL xD

Pattern Clarc

Citeregis

Likes received: 604

#486 - 2013-04-13 11:47:12 UTC | Edited by: Pattern Clarc

Kagura Nikon wrote:

Pattern Clarc wrote:

On closer inspection, the Tempest is pretty bad.

I'd either go back to making it the slower combat BS with the HP to match, remove the missile hardpoints and give it 125/150 drones.

Or 7/6/6 - making it a strong shield tanker, allowing it to be faster than a Megathron, with decent EHP and DPS (somewhere around proms bench marks) WITH a web and a point. Less neuting power than before, but oh well, you can't have everything.

The Cobmat tempest was useless. Eveerythgin It coudl dfo the maelstrom could do better. And the difference in HP between the previous proposla and current one is NOT 30 K EHP. ITs barely over 1K bae HP that translates to aroudn 2.5 K EHP.

The sgianture bonus is MUCH MUCH MUCH more significateive than 3 K EHP

The people who wanted armour and attack ship have pretty much the perfect combo in the new phoon. Attack with turrets? Tornado...

I'm ready and waiting for the Tempest to receive the full CCP Rise treatment tbh. As it stands right now it's reinvention, or oblivion.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Garresh

Mackies Raiders

Wild Geese.

Likes received: 346

#487 - 2013-04-13 13:22:58 UTC

Komodo Askold wrote:

Well, right now Minmatar are not a drone race, as Gallente or Amarr do.

Regardless of whether or not we have drone bonused ships, drones have *always* played an integral part in Minmatar ship design. Almost all our old ship designs that did have drone bays were larger than average. Of course we were never Gallente levels, and we never had explicit bonuses in drones, but that didn't stop us from being heavily drone-centric on some of our ships. Hell I've used the typhoon with sentries as my primary output before, in conjunction with cruises. This was for PvE in W-space, but it worked. It worked really well. We may not be the "drone race", but we are still minmatar, and we use drones. A lot.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank

Prometheus Exenthal

Aliastra

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 822

#488 - 2013-04-13 16:05:37 UTC

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

The were reduced (along with signature) because the collective was complaining that it wasn't a crappy 6 mid shield tanker.

I don't recall many people complaining it wasn't a shield tanker. There have been a couple asking for an extra mid, or an extra low, which tells me that the slot layout is just about right.

People have been requesting an extra mid for better shield-tanking & nanoing about. There's no other reason to ask for one when your ships already got 5

The base speed between the Typhoon & Tempest may be close, but the difference between the two of them is pretty huge. The reason? Agility & Mass. The Tempest is a fat brick compared to the Typhoon.

As for Minmatar not getting their 5 heavies anymore. Think of it this way, you're still better off than Caldari Blink

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Rebecha Pucontis

Doomheim

Likes received: 602

#489 - 2013-04-13 16:09:54 UTC

Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

The were reduced (along with signature) because the collective was complaining that it wasn't a crappy 6 mid shield tanker.

I don't recall many people complaining it wasn't a shield tanker. There have been a couple asking for an extra mid, or an extra low, which tells me that the slot layout is just about right.

People have been requesting an extra mid for better shield-tanking & nanoing about. There's no other reason to ask for one when your ships already got 5

Still sounds as though your scare mongering to get the changes you want to me. There isn't that much difference in terms of agility and sig between the typhoon and tempest, and the small difference there is can easily be ironed out with a few tweaks if necessary.

Also some people have been asking for an extra mid and an extra low slot in this thread, which shows that some people like to shield tank and others like to armour tank the Tempest, which shows to me the current slot layout is doing its job perfectly.


Pattern Clarc Citeregis Likes received: 604	#490 - 2013-04-13 16:25:52 UTC Rebecha Pucontis wrote: Also some people have been asking for an extra mid and an extra low slot in this thread, which shows that some people like to shield tank and others like to armour tank the Tempest, which shows to me the current slot layout is doing its job perfectly. lol. Nope. Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Prometheus Exenthal

Aliastra

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 822

#491 - 2013-04-13 16:31:15 UTC

Like I said before, I have no problem with the slot layout.
And the difference in agility is quite large. The Typhoon is a full second faster.

To put that into perspective, you can fit up a Typhoon for maximum potential armor buffer and still be faster to align than a completely unfit Tempest.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing (it isn't), but that you've got a bit of a false impression of the Tempest.
Most new players (from the last couple years) will have no knowledge of nano-phoons from back in the day, but the fact is that the Typhoon has always been smaller, faster, and more agile than the Tempest.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Pattern Clarc

Citeregis

Likes received: 604

#492 - 2013-04-13 16:36:22 UTC | Edited by: Pattern Clarc

If the tempest was actually a shield tanker, then the discrepancy between the speed and agility of the phoon would make sense... And so would the anaemic dps, You could try to make a better armour tanker I suppose (with more low slots), (would require more drone dps and to relook at the speed/agility stats) but it really doesn't make sense given how many ships can do a similar thing.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Rebecha Pucontis

Doomheim

Likes received: 602

#493 - 2013-04-13 16:48:16 UTC

Pattern Clarc wrote:

To me if you are going to fix the Tempest into a role, then make it an armour tanker. That way it can utilise its low sig which would be completely negated by the shield tank, and also the maelstrom already has a better shield tank so no point having two ships doing the same thing.

But in my opinion I would leave the slot layout as it is, and then alter other attributes if it needs further buffs.

Also the Tempest puts out roughly the same dps and the Maelstrom, so I dont know where your getting this idea that is has anaemic dps?

Pattern Clarc

Citeregis

Likes received: 604

#494 - 2013-04-13 16:52:09 UTC

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Do you put 2 or 3 gyros on your armor tanking tempest fit?

And the Maelstrom would have a better shield tank but none of the speed or utility. Looking around across the races, there are just far too many turreted armour tanking fleet ships, forcing the tempest down that road has always seemed like a mistake, especially considering many prefer to kite with it.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction


Prometheus Exenthal Aliastra Gallente Federation Likes received: 822	#495 - 2013-04-13 16:59:26 UTC And we've come full circle. Keep the slot layout, keep the sig/speed, & give the Tempest its previously suggested HP increase. There's no way it will be OP, and the ship won't be pigeonholed into a shield/armor role. https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage *DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT*

Pattern Clarc

Citeregis

Likes received: 604

#496 - 2013-04-13 17:35:19 UTC

Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

And we've come full circle.
Keep the slot layout, keep the sig/speed, & give the Tempest its previously suggested HP increase.

There's no way it will be OP, and the ship won't be pigeonholed into a shield/armor role.

So basically, the way you believe you fix the DPS and agility issues is by increasing adding +800 to shields, +500 armour and +300 to hull HP?

Looking at the current stats, (eg compared to the Phoon or Megathron) it seems like it's quite high for an Attack BS.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction


Prometheus Exenthal Aliastra Gallente Federation Likes received: 822	#497 - 2013-04-13 18:13:37 UTC Pretty much. It seems high until you notice that the slot layout is what limits the ships ability to tank AND do damage. It looks up to par to me, and suddenly looks like competition for the Amarr lineup https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage *DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT*

Vibramycin

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 26

#498 - 2013-04-13 18:40:52 UTC

Yes, of course I know the final thing that matters is angular velocity. Though I guess I can't blame you for assuming an eve player doesn't.

My point was that most of the time you will not have the luxury of being able to take advantage of a small sig; my phrasing of "HIGHLY situational" was euphamistic for "rarely relevant" and that's true. Seriously, go to EFT, and compare two BSs with 60mm sig difference. Tell me that'll matter in more than one engagement out of 100. I was looking at something like a 590 shield rokh vs a 400 armor mega--a MUCH bigger difference than you're discussing. The attacking BS had huge window in which they did at least 95% of their damage to the smaller sig. There was a range of a few KM--max, with a circular orbit!--when the mega was under the guns of the shooter and the rokh wasn't. The mega got a free bonus, too, being faster than the rokh, which I didn't correct for. Sig is a great mechanic; it is excellent for making frigs hard to hit by BS, yet still requiring pilot skill out of frig. It is hardly ever a deciding factor in bs vs. bs.

If you're telling me you can fly so close to the edge of the envelope that you can use 60 sig to change a fight, I'm telling you that you're so damn good you don't need 60 sig to run circles around every other eve PVPer in the game.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Vibramycin wrote:

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

To put it basically, a low signature radius mitigates damage in such a way that a high sig and higher EHP ship will still die faster despite the fact it has more shield and armour. The only case this wouldn't apply is when fighting smaller ships, but against anything BS and above it has a big effect. And also that not to mention all the other tactics you run when you have a faster, lighter, and more agile ship.

The sig radius effect is HIGHLY situational. I'm not a BS combat guru, but there's a large range of angular velocities where even a 50% difference in sig will make less than a 5% difference in damage taken. Specifically, if you are near optimal of railrokhs or hellcats (two very different situations, results the same), your sig doesn't mean squat as far as damage applied. If you are outside of optimal that's doubly true; only when you get well inside of optimal--AND have a high transversal--does small sig start to really help out.

Sit down with eft damage graphs for a while to get the feel for it.

This is the point though, when you know how to fly the ships properly then the extra sig and speed can make a massive difference. When you don't know what you are doing then you will die in a blaze of inglorious flames. That's one of the things I like about flying Minmatar ships, your on the edge of your seat trying to max out your speed and angular.

Also I noticed you looking at Transversal there, if your trying to avoid a guns tracking then it is angular velocity which matters. You can have high transversal, but if your orbiting miles out then your angular is still going to be low.

Also you have a permanent damage mitigation against missile and torpedos, you take longer to lock, and your ship will be more difficult to scan down. So there are loads of benefits to the low sig when you know how to work with it.

Rebecha Pucontis

Doomheim

Likes received: 602

#499 - 2013-04-13 19:02:39 UTC | Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis

Pattern Clarc wrote:

Do you put 2 or 3 gyros on your armor tanking tempest fit?

Looking over some of my fittings on EFT, generally I put one or two gyrostabs with projectile rigs on an armour fit. But yes, I get your point, generally the armour fits have much better tracking and optimal due to the mids slots, but less overall dps than the shield fits.

Task Force 641 Empyrean Edict 1,855
Zarnak Wulf Task Force 641 Empyrean Edict Likes received: 1,855	#500 - 2013-04-13 19:17:47 UTC 1 Skirmish links will lower the sig radius further. Halo implants (hi low sec!) will do the same. With both - that Typhoon and Tempest will actually sit at 165m and 180m respectively.