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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#461 - 2013-04-12 20:45:35 UTC
Pity about the drone bandwidth change. Could have been a cheap armor Rattlesanke alternative. Would have had less drone dps.. but would still have been pretty awesome.. maybe that's why they dropped the drone bandwidth Twisted
Vibramycin
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#462 - 2013-04-12 20:58:36 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


To put it basically, a low signature radius mitigates damage in such a way that a high sig and higher EHP ship will still die faster despite the fact it has more shield and armour. The only case this wouldn't apply is when fighting smaller ships, but against anything BS and above it has a big effect. And also that not to mention all the other tactics you run when you have a faster, lighter, and more agile ship.


The sig radius effect is HIGHLY situational. I'm not a BS combat guru, but there's a large range of angular velocities where even a 50% difference in sig will make less than a 5% difference in damage taken. Specifically, if you are near optimal of railrokhs or hellcats (two very different situations, results the same), your sig doesn't mean squat as far as damage applied. If you are outside of optimal that's doubly true; only when you get well inside of optimal--AND have a high transversal--does small sig start to really help out.

Sit down with eft damage graphs for a while to get the feel for it.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#463 - 2013-04-12 21:03:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Vibramycin wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


To put it basically, a low signature radius mitigates damage in such a way that a high sig and higher EHP ship will still die faster despite the fact it has more shield and armour. The only case this wouldn't apply is when fighting smaller ships, but against anything BS and above it has a big effect. And also that not to mention all the other tactics you run when you have a faster, lighter, and more agile ship.


The sig radius effect is HIGHLY situational. I'm not a BS combat guru, but there's a large range of angular velocities where even a 50% difference in sig will make less than a 5% difference in damage taken. Specifically, if you are near optimal of railrokhs or hellcats (two very different situations, results the same), your sig doesn't mean squat as far as damage applied. If you are outside of optimal that's doubly true; only when you get well inside of optimal--AND have a high transversal--does small sig start to really help out.

Sit down with eft damage graphs for a while to get the feel for it.


This is the point though, when you know how to fly the ships properly then the extra sig and speed can make a massive difference. When you don't know what you are doing then you will die in a blaze of inglorious flames. That's one of the things I like about flying Minmatar ships, your on the edge of your seat trying to max out your speed and angular.

Also I noticed you looking at Transversal there, if your trying to avoid a guns tracking then it is angular velocity which matters. You can have high transversal, but if your orbiting miles out then your angular is still going to be low.

Also you have a permanent damage mitigation against missile and torpedos, you take longer to lock, and your ship will be more difficult to scan down. So there are loads of benefits to the low sig when you know how to work with it.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#464 - 2013-04-12 21:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Also you don't seem to realise how signature radius works.

Straight

You're aware that I'm the person who pushed for those sig-related bonuses on the AFs, right?
I'm very very much aware of how signature radius works Blink

Fact of the matter is that if a battleship is MWDing at range, any weapons will track and hit it. They aren't that small or fast. Generally speaking, to EVADE damage in a BS by getting under tracking, also means your turrets aren't hitting a damn thing either.

The only situation where small battleship signature is nice, is when it comes to getting bombed OR if said BS is using an AB and being shot at by rage/jav torps or any cruise missile that don't have a TP aid or expl velocity bonus. Which is kinda irrelevant since the Phoon has that bonus, and Rise has said there will be positive changes made to Cruise missiles.

If it's webbed, the ship isn't small/fast enough to get under BS-sized tracking (for closerange weapons) without ruining its own damage output. The lock-speed argument IS valid to an extent, but that would have to mean that the Tempest has either a damage (application/projection) or tanking advantage. The Tempest has neither of those. The first strike advantage is negated as soon as the other BS get a lock, because they all have either a damage, range, or tanking advantage that supersede it.

That fact is further bolstered by the Maelstrom & Typhoon, which outperform the Tempest when it comes to just about everything.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#465 - 2013-04-12 21:19:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

The only situation where small battleship signature is nice, is when it comes to getting bombed.


I have to disagree on this one. If your going to fit an MWD and keep cycling it then unlike a frig you will get little to no benefit from the lowered sig, but you shouldn't be doing that if your trying to avoid tracking, an AB would work much better allowing you to keep up speed and allow your opponent only glancing hits.

Also this is only turrets, when it comes to missiles you are getting a permenant damage mitigation with no stacking penalty with the other methods of mitigating damage.

Also why do you think CCP Rise wouldn't reduce the signature without dropping the EHP when we originally asked for it.. It's because these guys have worked out the Maths and now how valuable the lowered signature is, particuarly when you are in the realms of sub 350 for a BS.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2013-04-12 22:42:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
I very rarely see AB fit battleships in combat.
Yes that mitigates some damage, but the Tempest doesn't have a tracking bonus or the best range. By keeping transversal up you're ruining your own damage output. The only way around this, is a shield tank, which increases your signature and decreases your total HP (aka any hope of fighting other BS).

Nowadays, a Raven with torpedoes and an unbonused TP is still doing more damage to an unwebbed afterburning Tempest than a standard dual gyro Tempest is doing to said Raven. This remains true until you get out of torpedo range. Even a cruise Raven, while doing slightly less dps, is more useful because it has such obscene range which means constant damage. And that damage mitigation is negated when you start adding multiple ships w/ target painters or even support ships with webs.

The same applies when trying to argue against ANY of the other Battleships, without them using drones, and with MAXIMUM potential transversal. If you want to include a sentry Dominix or Armageddon, they hit Tempests just as well.

And of course, up close, all of that signature and ab tank is totally negated unless you're fighting a battleship that isn't aided by a web (either its own or otherwise). So you see, there isn't a situation where a *kiting* Tempest would have the upper hand against other battleships. Its only advantage being that if it's not in scramble range, it can run away (something MJD provides anyways)

As for people complaining and begging Rise to retract his changes, that's simply a dev doing his job.
Those same people are working in the realm of TODAYS ships where the Tempest may be viable on some level.
With all the new ship changes, the Tempest as it stands, becomes nothing more than a cool looking ship and a base for which the faction version can be built..

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#467 - 2013-04-12 23:00:48 UTC
There are a number of ways in which you can make the low signature work, although yes in some scenarios it wont have any effect. Against missiles though it will help quite a bit, against turrets it is more situational, but good Minmatar pilots will get into the right situations to make it work for them.

Personally I would improve the Tempest by upping its speed and agility a little further, and lowering its sig slightly, meaning it can be used as a decent sniping ship with BS HP, or fit it with neuts and go for a close range fit. Although it had its EHP lowered, it is still very decent for an attack BS. Damage output is still very good, and so all in all its looking very good to me.

I would suggest tweaking the speed and agility a little more, and then leaving it and wait to see if it find a place in the meta.

If you don't agree, then what would you suggest instead anyway. It's all well and good complaining, but if you don't suggest anything yourself then its not much help. And there is no point simply turning the ship into an inferior version of the maelstrom .
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#468 - 2013-04-12 23:06:01 UTC
I would go for something like this ideally. Still decent with either a shield or armour fit, nice and fast, and not pigeon holed so there are plenty of options.

Tempest:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG, 550 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7300 (+300) / 7300 / 6500 (-300)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 (+10) / .11 (-0.1) / 101050000 / ??
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 350 (-10)
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#469 - 2013-04-12 23:06:46 UTC
I'm hoping that the silence is due to an attempt to re-re-balance a number of ships to stop the constant whining.

Sadly (for me) I figure that the (almost) 90 page long set of complaints about Gallente BS will get more focus than this thread.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#470 - 2013-04-12 23:22:36 UTC
Sunuva Gunn wrote:
I'm hoping that the silence is due to an attempt to re-re-balance a number of ships to stop the constant whining.

Sadly (for me) I figure that the (almost) 90 page long set of complaints about Gallente BS will get more focus than this thread.


Yes it would be nice to get a response and see what they have so far. At the moment most people have contributed their opinions and now the conversation has gone stale until we find out what is happening next.

I guess they are working on them, so fingers crossed for any further iterations. Mainly for a larger drone capability on the typhoon, but a few tweaks to the tempest would also be nice.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#471 - 2013-04-12 23:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
The Tempest shouldn't get a smaller signature than what was already proposed.
The reasoning is that if you go much smaller, you're entering Battlcruiser territory.
For example; A Drake is around 380, and Shield Cane is around 340. The Typhoon is already at that level (330), so that's already something that needs to be observed carefully.

It doesn't really matter if you think the ships current proposed HP is *fine*, because once you've factored in everything else, ti's quite poor. I don't have a problem with the ships slot layout, and I was a big fan of the Mega (initially) sharing it. You can keep the signature and but IMO it needs to get that extra bit of base hitpoints back.

The current proposition is:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(+46) / 7300(+1089) / 6800(+259)

The original proposition was this:
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7800(+846) / 7800(+1589) / 7100(+459)

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#472 - 2013-04-13 00:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The Tempest shouldn't get a smaller signature than what was already proposed.
The reasoning is that if you go much smaller, you're entering Battlcruiser territory.


The Typhoon currently is at 330, so 350 on the Tempest would seem reasonable as it has higher HP.


Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
It doesn't really matter if you think the ships current proposed HP is *fine*, because once you've factored in everything else, ti's quite poor. I don't have a problem with the ships slot layout, and I was a big fan of the Mega (initially) sharing it. You can keep the signature and but IMO it needs to get that extra bit of base hitpoints back.


If you think 7300 shield and armour is poor, then what do you think of the Typhoon which is far lower? I'd like to see both at 7300. But mainly I'd like to see armour and shield both equal, so perhaps both at 7150 to compromise. I cant see CCP Rise increasing the HP to the levels you proposed above, it would make the ship too OP.
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#473 - 2013-04-13 00:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmell
The new phoon is also almost as fast on 100mn ab as ahac. With BC signature and tracking independent weapons....yeah, i dont know the reason to fly tempest anymore. The combination of stats is insanely strong imo
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#474 - 2013-04-13 00:37:36 UTC
The Typhoon is lower as a base, yes, but it also has an extra low slot (greater armor tank).
So despite having less armor to start off with, its a higher damage ship (torps+heavies) with more low slots.
On top of it all, THAT ship has absurd enough speed, damage projection, and signature to make its nanoing capability worthwhile. It's basically a fat battlecruiser, or a really high dps Drake.

The levels I posted were the initial amounts that Rise proposed. They aren't my numbers, they are what CCP wanted.
The were reduced (along with signature) because the collective was complaining that it wasn't a crappy 6 mid shield tanker.

However, now you've got a vastly under performing ship. The higher HP gives it a chance to compete.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#475 - 2013-04-13 00:42:16 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
+5% Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity (replaces large projectile rate of fire)

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 5 turrets , 6 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 12500 PWG, 640 CPU(+40)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500(+289) / 6000(+531) / 6000(-211)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400(+400) / 1087s / 4.97 (+.3)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 / .11(-.006) / 103600000(-2000000) / 15.8s(-1.16s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-125) / 100(-75)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km(+5k) / 115 / 7
Sensor strength: 19 Ladar Sensor Strength(+1)
Signature radius: 330(+10)


TIL: Old typhoon has 225mb bandwidth for drones.

Also, to everyone who doubted that they would make the typhoon a torpedo boat: HAHAHAHA SUCK IT I TOLD YOU SO.
/professionalism.

The explosion velocity bonus is nice, but even with that, they (torpedos) are still going to be lame ducks for hitting anything smaller than a battleship, compared to other short range weapon systems.
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#476 - 2013-04-13 00:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmell
Arronicus wrote:

The explosion velocity bonus is nice, but even with that, they (torpedos) are still going to be lame ducks for hitting anything smaller than a battleship, compared to other short range weapon systems.


Well actually 1 web and one tp are enough to deal 90% of raw torpedo damage to a cruiser, moving with its base speed (lets say that mwd is already turned off by scrambler, and no ab present)

Nice?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#477 - 2013-04-13 01:08:23 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The Typhoon is lower as a base, yes, but it also has an extra low slot (greater armor tank).
So despite having less armor to start off with, its a higher damage ship (torps+heavies) with more low slots.
On top of it all, THAT ship has absurd enough speed, damage projection, and signature to make its nanoing capability worthwhile. It's basically a fat battlecruiser, or a really high dps Drake.

The levels I posted were the initial amounts that Rise proposed. They aren't my numbers, they are what CCP wanted.
The were reduced (along with signature) because the collective was complaining that it wasn't a crappy 6 mid shield tanker.

However, now you've got a vastly under performing ship. The higher HP gives it a chance to compete.




1 K more EHP measn NOTHIGn is a massive half a second worth o incommign damage on a normal small sacale fight (4-5 ) ships.

The signature radisu allows you to get locked enoughsecodns later that you are gaignign MORE than 1 k ehp

Also signature is EXTREMELY helpful when you are fighting dreads and carriers.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#478 - 2013-04-13 01:10:44 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
On closer inspection, the Tempest is pretty bad.

I'd either go back to making it the slower combat BS with the HP to match, remove the missile hardpoints and give it 125/150 drones.

Or 7/6/6 - making it a strong shield tanker, allowing it to be faster than a Megathron, with decent EHP and DPS (somewhere around proms bench marks) WITH a web and a point. Less neuting power than before, but oh well, you can't have everything.



The Cobmat tempest was useless. Eveerythgin It coudl dfo the maelstrom could do better. And the difference in HP between the previous proposla and current one is NOT 30 K EHP. ITs barely over 1K bae HP that translates to aroudn 2.5 K EHP.


The sgianture bonus is MUCH MUCH MUCH more significateive than 3 K EHP

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#479 - 2013-04-13 01:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Seishi Maru wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The previous Tempest iteration was better than what's up here now.
The people complaining about the signature radius are high.
Now the ship is woefully inadequate compared to every other BS.



You are the one high. The 2 secodns extra that other battleships take to lock a tempest provide WAY more Effective hitpoints thatn the little bit it lost. Its very adequate for qhen you want to oerate in an attack role, kill somethign and get out. Very minmatar and much more interesting that simply having more HP taht is a role the tempest would ALWAYS loose to the abaddon.


Those two extra seconds mean very very little when you're damage AND tank is lower than the competition by a fair bit.
None of the battleships are really so cap insecure that dual heavy neuts will make up for the ships lack of dps or hitpoints.
The only thing this ship does is a half-baked nano attempt What?

You've basically just talked yourselves out of a decent armor tanking Tempest, all because you like to think the Tempest is a fast kitey ship with a small sig.

Within your own race you're being outperformed:
For long range the Maelstrom is better.
For nanoing the Typhoon is better.
For brawling either the Typhoon OR Mael do a better job.
For mobile pot shots where you aren't taking any damage, the Tornado is better.

Once you start bringing in the other races, you're even further up **** creek.
Keep in mind that the Megathron is BARELY larger (20m3), quicker and more agile, despite being plated up.

Not the mention the amount of hate for the new Typhoon. Sure I love split weapon systems, and there was nothing really wrong with the old Phoon. HOWEVER, the new one is a better ship.
You people ARE aware how much that ship is going to hurt right?
You're also aware of how bloody fast / agile it is right?

Rise is giving you guys awesome Minmatar ships on a silver platter, and you're collectively taking a dump on it because you'd prefer the race to be inferior.



You are really bad at math and how a combat works.



Imagine that 2 of the original tempest with 1200 extra HP fight 2 abaddons with pulses. Then same thign with the new proposal.. The smaller tempests take almsot 2 seconds more to be locked. That roughly equates to 1800-1900 damage sabved only there. Then the bad tracking pulses will miss a few shots from the large tempest, but MANY more from the smaller ones. At end the less HP tempest have way more effective defense than the original version. The larger the opposing force, the larger the smaller tempest advantage will be. new tempest is much better.

The new tempest just need a tiny bit more speed to match Megathron speed.



Because Tempests have great tracking, and the new Apocs and Domis don't shred them right?
If you're sitting still, you're an easy target. If you're mwding around, you're an easy target.
If you're shooting a ship that has sentries deployed, lock time is negated because sentries shoot back right away.

There is only 1 situation where a Tempest works better than a Typhoon, and that's plinking small tackle from 40-50km away.
If you don't have missile skills to use the Typhoon, well yea that's a ****** deal, but at the same time, Minmatar have been a split race since day one. That's like complaining you didn't train T2 heavy/sentry drones and now you're upset because the Dominix lost its hybrid bonus.

As for wanting your "versatility" back on the Typhoon...
You folks make it sound like you ran both missiles AND ACs on your Typhoons.
But if that were the case, you'd be embracing its changes, because you've already got missile skills and the now the ship is better! If that ISN'T the case, and you DON'T have missile skills, the Tempest has always been the better of the two.
The Phoon loosing its extra heavy drones does suck a little bit overall, but at the end of the day it's not a drone ship and Minmatar is not a drone race.


And to reiterate on the Tempest..
People moaning to change one of the pests damage bonuses to falloff and change a high to a mid...
You're high. Enjoy your lame 3 slot shield tank (pvp), even weaker damage output, and now utterly useless armor setups.

The pest is not a nano ship. Especially since a good amount of BS will slap the **** out of your kiting & mwding hull. Hell, a cruise phoon (before any missile boosts) will bone your ass so damn fast, it'll make your head spin.

The pest needs to be looked at like a minmatar Megathron, because that's the kind of ship they don't have. It needs a ship in the ~110-120k + 930dps range, and it doesn't come close now that it was redacted.

The Typhoon, Maelstrom, Dominix, and any of the Amarr ships will give zero fucks how far or how kitey a Tempest is.
The Typhoon IS the better kiting and nanoing ship. The only thing the pest does better is plink frigates from 40+km.

The nanophoon does exactly what you people are asking for, but because it uses missiles, you don't want anything to do with it Roll



STOP ARGUINING ABOUT AN ILLUSIVE BS vs BS fight only on the same number of ships!!

The signature radius advantage of the tempest is percentually LARGER against an abaddon than the trackign advantage of the mega against the same abaddon. Get out of your limited mindset. you are failing VERY hard .

The redaction reduced only a LITTLE BIT of armor anhd some shield. Stop being BLIND

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#480 - 2013-04-13 01:55:01 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The Typhoon is lower as a base, yes, but it also has an extra low slot (greater armor tank).
So despite having less armor to start off with, its a higher damage ship (torps+heavies) with more low slots.
On top of it all, THAT ship has absurd enough speed, damage projection, and signature to make its nanoing capability worthwhile. It's basically a fat battlecruiser, or a really high dps Drake.


On one hand you are saying the typhoon is able to nano and has absurd speed, yet the tempest has only 20 extra signature radius, and only 10m/s slower, yet your saying it is useless. Why not argue to bring the Tempest to the Typhoon levels then if that is what you believe. It sounds to me as though you have your mind set on making the Tempest a heavy combat ship where it will always be outclassed by the maeltrom.

Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The were reduced (along with signature) because the collective was complaining that it wasn't a crappy 6 mid shield tanker.


I don't recall many people complaining it wasn't a shield tanker. There have been a couple asking for an extra mid, or an extra low, which tells me that the slot layout is just about right.