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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1021 - 2013-04-12 11:44:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
I do hope you take another (deep) look at the cap issues though. There are a lot of ways to solve them.


We really have looked at them. Fozzie was running level 4s yesterday easily in a pulse Apoc without sacrificing many slots. Not only can you run them, but you gain a lot of offensive capability because of the tracking bonus and the increased speed and agility.

I think you will find its not a very painful shift - but again, public testing will give us a better idea.


Will it be even remotely possible for newer players with not-maxed cap/gun skills to run pve in a Amarr BS? It's always been hard for them and you're not making it any easier here.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1022 - 2013-04-12 11:48:07 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Being called Gallentean right after Gallente were saying we hate Gallente is pretty awesome.
You're right about the primary racial roles, but Amarr has been establishing a stronger drone representation throughout tiericide. Tormentor -> Dragoon -> Arbitrator -> Prophecy. And Khanid has always existed as a missile focused division of Amarr. I don't think we are straying far at all from Amarr offensive system organization with this battleship line.



What about old consistency?

Punisher > Maller>Abaddon

Executioner (yeah that is a bit far-fetched) > Omen > Armageddon

Crucifier > Dragoon > Arbitrator > New disruption battleship?


Punisher > Maller > Abaddon

Executioner > Omen > Apocalypse

Crucifier/Tormentor > Arbitrator > Armageddon

I don't see the problem here, it works fine.
Serith Ellecon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1023 - 2013-04-12 11:50:47 UTC
Like others, I believe there needs to be a bit of a bone thrown towards players newly into battleships. Perhaps a small cap use reduction in some of the mid range battleship lasers would be that answer?

Inappropriate signature added.  CCP Notarealdev.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1024 - 2013-04-12 11:53:46 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
I do hope you take another (deep) look at the cap issues though. There are a lot of ways to solve them.


We really have looked at them. Fozzie was running level 4s yesterday easily in a pulse Apoc without sacrificing many slots. Not only can you run them, but you gain a lot of offensive capability because of the tracking bonus and the increased speed and agility.

I think you will find its not a very painful shift - but again, public testing will give us a better idea.


Will it be even remotely possible for newer players with not-maxed cap/gun skills to run pve in a Amarr BS? It's always been hard for them and you're not making it any easier here.


Fitting a cap booster is always better than fitting 3 cap rigs and a bunch of cap rechargers or relays. Cap boosters are also kind of why abaddons are overpowered - because it negates its cap weakness entirely. This cap weakness was supposed to justify it having such powerful bonuses when it was introduced.
Hulasikaly Wada
DO.IT
I.N.D.E.P.E.N.D.E.N.T
#1025 - 2013-04-12 12:03:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
DO NOT even dare to come any close near the Navy Armageddon and Navy Apocalypse...


Oh I'll be coming near them pretty soon alright =)

I think you'll be happy though.


Ahah, have already in mind what a Repubblic Fleet Hurricare is


Hula
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1026 - 2013-04-12 12:06:48 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
The Marauderification (low count, high bonus) of normal hulls is not really viable unless it is done for all, as it would mean new artwork and trying to explain to a newcomer that the -3 total slot count really doesn't mean anything. Then you have differences in ammo consumption and fitting cost which you just know will be wailed about by nitpickers ..

I have gotten to terms with the drone line (Dragoon-Prophecy-Armageddon), although I would like the Omen to be included there since the NOmen is being taken in a completely different direction .. and well the explanation that it gives a clear progression for new pilots falls flat when you jump from Dessie to BC.

Three problems remaining for me is cap issues which are currently only solved by forced fitting of an injector (mandatory mods = bad!) and the rather more serious transgression of Amarr no longer having the most lows .. Mega can of course keep its god config, but if so then one of the golden ones must be retooled to have the equal number.
Last issue for me is active tanking with +4% falls behind the rep amount bonus (quite quickly on smaller hulls) considering the general slot layouts on hulls involved, which pigeon holes Amarr resist hulls into buffer fits .. forcing decisions is bad (same complaint I have with the NOmen revamp).

All but the low-slot transgression can be solved by introducing racial distinction through bonuses on all ships (needed since they are removed everywhere else!), examples:
Amarr could get double benefit from batteries.
Minmatar could get added effect of everything projected (they do like to swarm after all).
Caldari a cap/range/fitting bonus to all eWar. Not effect/power, that will hopefully remain racially determined but they are the electronics savvy so anything else goes as far as I am concerned.
Gallente can have a static bonus to drones (auto-repair in space perhaps) or a cap/fitting bonus to armour reps as they are now by design apparently to be the sole inhabitants of that niche.

Or CCP can just increase cap on Apoc/Abad to useful levels. Geddon is good as is, should require assis or injector if neuting and has capless weapon option so a non issue for it.

In short: A few kinks to iron out, cap (addresses active option as well) and low-slot primarily, otherwise they look good. Do want something to be done to set the races apart, one should not be able to find the best tool for a job without having to stray outside a given line-up.

The Arbitrator has always been Amarr's cruiser drone hull.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1027 - 2013-04-12 12:12:16 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Hi Rise,

With the upsurge in neuts this is going to bring are you guys planning on releasing XL cap batteries anytime soon?

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=3472

Been hidden away in the background for years (as long as I can remember in fact) but never made it into game.

O.O XL Cap Batteries? Does that mean 1600 and maybe even a 2400 sized charges too?
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1028 - 2013-04-12 12:15:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Thank you for your work CCP Rise!
May I know what do you think of the 6 turret + 7.5/level damage plan, for Abaddon or Apoc?


I think the problem with it is that the Abaddon is strong enough already (as proven on TQ) that giving it extra turrets right now would be difficult to justify, and the Apoc doesn't have a damage bonus to use - so doing this for the Apoc would mean reworking it completely around a new damage bonus.


But what I proposed for the changes on the Abaddon does NOT give it "extra" turrets... it actually slightly lowers it's effective base turret count (while allowing the option for adding an extra heat sink to balance that back up!) 8 turrets x 25% = 10, 6 turrets x 50% = 9.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1029 - 2013-04-12 12:17:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Constructive criticism:

For the 'new' Armageddon, the combination of Neutralizer bonus, the Dominix’s drone bonus and the slot layout provide too much synergy – it will be too powerful and steps too much on the Dominix’s role.

Instead:

Quote:
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% large energy turret and battleship launcher rate of fire
+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range (replaced large energy turret cap use)

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 8L; 5 turrets(-2) , 5 launchers(+5)
Fittings: 13500 PWG(-3000), 550 CPU(+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(+1331) / 8500(+1859) / 8000(+1789)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(-5) / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 250(+125)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4)
Signature radius: 450 (+80)

My changes emphasised.
Having a ‘dual-hatted’ bonus is not without precedent and having three bonuses is not without precendent (Scorpion).

What this does is keep clearer separation between the Armageddon and Dominx.

It has a larger drone bay, allowing a flight of heavy’s, flight of mediums and 3 flights of lights but not the drone damage bonus.
It retains enough of its laser focus to keep the ‘loyalists’ happy, but also has that Khanid gleam to its eye, without going all the way (i.e. without the bonuses to missile damage projection, like the Raven and Typhoon).
It is flexible, but forces genuine compromise rather than the straight 7 neut + drones ship the current iteration is going to become.

Thoughts?

Edit: If you changed it back to being a non-drone boat it would be able to get it's 8th low slot back.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Ryan Easte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1030 - 2013-04-12 12:17:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryan Easte
deleted
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1031 - 2013-04-12 12:18:16 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Hi Rise,

With the upsurge in neuts this is going to bring are you guys planning on releasing XL cap batteries anytime soon?

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=3472

Been hidden away in the background for years (as long as I can remember in fact) but never made it into game.

O.O XL Cap Batteries? Does that mean 1600 and maybe even a 2400 sized charges too?
Did you actually look at the stats? It's a Battleship sized module, been floating around in the background since 2004, but never released.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1032 - 2013-04-12 12:19:36 UTC
Have you taken a look at how difficult the geddon will be to tackle in small gang situations?
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1033 - 2013-04-12 12:21:38 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
I do hope you take another (deep) look at the cap issues though. There are a lot of ways to solve them.


We really have looked at them. Fozzie was running level 4s yesterday easily in a pulse Apoc without sacrificing many slots. Not only can you run them, but you gain a lot of offensive capability because of the tracking bonus and the increased speed and agility.

I think you will find its not a very painful shift - but again, public testing will give us a better idea.

Fozzie, like me, has pretty much max skills... what about making it so that new players now have to pretty much get those skills to max to do the same? My proposed changes to the 'baddon (or even other's proposed changes to the Apoc along a similar vein) would make these hulls a viable option for them while allowing us better skilled pilots abit more fitting flexibility, and has been pointed out, dropping the actual effective turret count from 10 down to 9.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1034 - 2013-04-12 12:25:05 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Have you taken a look at how difficult the geddon will be to tackle in small gang situations?


And multiply that by a factor of 10/100 (depending on fleet size) and you can quickly see how OP the new Armageddon is.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1035 - 2013-04-12 12:26:17 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Have you taken a look at how difficult the geddon will be to tackle in small gang situations?


Sounds like you accept neuting dominixes because you have links and can stay out of neut range, which means you have no honour.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#1036 - 2013-04-12 12:26:33 UTC
Arline Kley wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Have you taken a look at how difficult the geddon will be to tackle in small gang situations?


And multiply that by a factor of 10/100 (depending on fleet size) and you can quickly see how OP the new Armageddon is.



Well large fleets normally dont fit tackle anyway, or have it on dedicated ships like sabres or lachs that can do it.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1037 - 2013-04-12 12:31:32 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Arline Kley wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Have you taken a look at how difficult the geddon will be to tackle in small gang situations?


And multiply that by a factor of 10/100 (depending on fleet size) and you can quickly see how OP the new Armageddon is.



Well large fleets normally dont fit tackle anyway, or have it on dedicated ships like sabres or lachs that can do it.



Except you have 9/99 others to then deal with, all of which can insta-cap the tackler.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1038 - 2013-04-12 12:33:15 UTC
Arline Kley wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Arline Kley wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Have you taken a look at how difficult the geddon will be to tackle in small gang situations?


And multiply that by a factor of 10/100 (depending on fleet size) and you can quickly see how OP the new Armageddon is.



Well large fleets normally dont fit tackle anyway, or have it on dedicated ships like sabres or lachs that can do it.



Except you have 9/99 others to then deal with, all of which can insta-cap the tackler.


You could just kill it instead like with proper battleships.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1039 - 2013-04-12 12:34:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Hi Rise,

With the upsurge in neuts this is going to bring are you guys planning on releasing XL cap batteries anytime soon?

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=3472

Been hidden away in the background for years (as long as I can remember in fact) but never made it into game.

O.O XL Cap Batteries? Does that mean 1600 and maybe even a 2400 sized charges too?
Did you actually look at the stats? It's a Battleship sized module, been floating around in the background since 2004, but never released.

No, I'd never seen those threads before, I've only recently started getting involved in the forums, and thank you for providing the links, I am just about to click on them and read them over :)

-Edit: It makes no mention of charges, so my question about larger charges to go with it isn't answered.-
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1040 - 2013-04-12 12:35:34 UTC
We got some feedback at least.

SiSi testing will tell the truth. Let's just hope people will accept it if new bonuses work fine on one hadn and devs make necessary changes if needs arises on the other.

Maybe Fozzie will fit meta beams on his Apocalypse and see getting capstable with them is that much harder. And meta beams is what new Amarr PvErs use. Train to (overpowered) Scorch is a pretty damn long for a person unused to 20+ day skills...