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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr First post First post First post
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Ashlar Vellum

Esquire Armaments

Likes received: 463

#921 - 2013-04-11 23:57:30 UTC

Kraschyn Thek'athor wrote:

And btw.
my favorite Armageddon layout would be....
5% per Level Damage
5% per Level RoF
8x Turrets, 8x High, 3x Medium, 8x Low
Standard Drone supplement 75/75.

That would be Armageddon Style. The Laser Beast of Doom.
The new Armageddon will be nice, it will be used, and will be the Capital Killer Support ship.
Maybe we will even see Neut-Armageddon Logi-Killer Wings.

In case we need an Missile BS for Amarr (Mission Runner), make an Khanid Armageddon with 6x Launchers and Resistance Boni.

as much as I would like to see that

ArmaGeddon with

8 turrets
5% per Level RoF
5% per Level Damage

will have too much damage and be a little bit op.

simple numbers: all to lvl5
scorch: volley 2506 / dps 590
conflag: volley 3509 / dps 825

and that is with completely empty lows and no rigs.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ersahi Kir

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 439

#922 - 2013-04-11 23:58:01 UTC

Rynnik wrote:

At 7(6 turret) / 4 / 8 the Apoc would be nicely versatile while still very Amarr with the limited mids. Cap would be a touch more friendly for those low skill missioners or whatever. Tachs would fit a touch easier. I could fit a neut or nos for small gang brawling (yes I would do this using this hull even though the proposed mega and the geddon overshadows it for the role just to get my pew pew laser fix).

So there we are with the substantiation of why I hope that they will at least consider adjusting the hull a bit and bonus it something like:

7.5% per level to damage (keep it right around 8 effective turrets or it WILL be overpowered)
7.5% per level to large energy turret optimal range and tracking (they were definitely on an interesting path with these)

I don't want to sound too critical but this is just horribly balanced. You essentially traded a high slot and two turret mounts to add a low, but you really didn't take them away because you just slapped a 3rd bonus on it. Effectively you added a high utility slot, a low slot, more fitting space, and better cap stability because 6 guns. And a tiny bit of damage, but lets not get hung up on a quarter of a turret.

Kethry Avenger

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 129

#923 - 2013-04-12 00:07:37 UTC

One thing that I think could be changed that would help all the Battleships not just Amarr is a change in cap recharge.

I don't think any of the BS need more actual cap amount so neuts will still be effective but I think all Battleships should be better with cap recharge. All the battleships have much less mobility than other size ships but I think should all have more cap stability than they do now. Something like 20%-40% better for all the Battleships.

Just a thought.

In other news, are we going to get some more feedback on the Amarr ships?

Any changes coming for Large size lasers? cap use, fitting, anything?

Any comments on the proposal to change up crystals so we don't just carry, IMF, Cong, Scorch, or IMF, Gleam, Aurora? And maybe Standard if we think we will be shooting a structure for a long time.

Lillith Sakata

Royal Amarr Institute

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 50

#924 - 2013-04-12 00:12:05 UTC

Something else that I've been thinking about.

Battleships. Generally, they're not ISK effective these days.

Instead of nerfing battleships, they should actually be BUFFED. A LOT.

The thing is, for years now, the battleship has been fielded less and less, in favor of Nagas, nados, etc. Especially with these new Faction BCs and the T3's.

To avoid "Cruiser Online", these battleships need to find their way back to the field. To do that, they need to be a class above BattleCruisers and Strategic Cruisers (imho all of which are OP and not fitting the role that they're supposed to be aside from the Legion) These new Battlecruisers give us even less motivation to fly Battleships for anything aside from ratting.

If they're going to keep up with the Cruisers and Battlecruisers getting buffed all over, the battleships are made more and more worthless. They just aren't worth fielding in fleets. They can be scanned down in seconds, and blobbed by T3's and cruiser fleets that cost less to lose 10 of than the battleships.

At this point, I'm mostly just frustrated with all this cruiser buff stuff, and the screwing of battleships (imagine you guys in carriers and stuff will be crying soon, once they kill off battleships you guys will be next).

The other thing that bugs me is the straying from the racial roles that make the EvE universe. Amarr should be training into armor tanking and lasers. Caldari, missiles and shields. Gallente for drones/hybrids and whatever tank they use, and Minmatar for Projectile stuff and speed.
Mixxing the crap aoming the different races throws off this balance that has been in the game since the beginning. It throws off the RP of eve. And it turns the game into wow.

Kethry Avenger

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 129

#925 - 2013-04-12 00:15:26 UTC

AspiB'elt wrote:

Also the lens now it's completely broken.

We use only multi frequency faction and t2 lens the other lens are completely unusable.

Perhaps that will be a great idea to split the lens in 4 area of range

Multifrenquency -50 % optimal 80 % EM 20 % Thermal dgm
Gamma -50 % optimal 20 % EM 80 % Thermal dgm

Xray -20 % optimal 80 % EM 20 % Thermal dgm
Ultraviolet -20 % optimal 20 % EM 80 % Thermal dgm

Standard +20 % optimal 80 % EM 20 % Thermal dgm
Infrared +20 % optimal 20 % EM 80 % Thermal dgm

Microwave +50 % optimal 80 % EM 20 % Thermal dgm
Radio +50 % optimal 20 % EM 80 % Thermal dgm

I really like the idea of this. Make the Minmatar at least have to fit 2 damage specific hardeners when fighting us, instead of having that 90% em resist on some of the T2 ships.

Armon Nahrain

Chroma Corp

Prismatic Legion

Likes received: 0

#926 - 2013-04-12 00:16:27 UTC

So, since Amarr is now getting their T2 ewar bonus (neuts) as a standard on T1 hulls, will the other races be following suit? Especially as Target Painters and Damps are so useless in the meta, could we get some T1 Minmatar/Gallente with their traditional T2 bonus? Point range Domi/web range Phoon?

Passive aggression spent, let me politely request that you not do this as neut range would be a terrible thing that would be a massive roadblock to small gangs to anyone with one in station. Make it a viable drone boat alternative to the Dominix. Less Bhaalgorn, more Prophecy. Or leave it as is, it currently perfectly fits the philosophy of "Attack" battleship; high damage, low tank.

This is a massive and unnecessary change with profound implications both to the meta and to the basic structure of bonuses.

Rynnik

Evasion Gaming

The Ancients.

Likes received: 119

#927 - 2013-04-12 00:18:12 UTC | Edited by: Rynnik

Ersahi Kir wrote:

The cap and fitting depend on the other stats that I purposely left out. CCP would have to balance it out, but a net gain in both would be a good thing for the reasons I posted earlier. A utility high and another low are the entire purpose of shifting the turret setup. Setting aside the Armageddon which is pure utility highs, having both laser battleships pack 8 turrets is too limiting within the hardcap of 19 slots. I personally really want some slot diversification for Amarr ships both these BS and the laser cruiser lineup (5 ships with 5/3/7 layouts).

As for the 3rd bonus on it, I will totally accept that it is a 3rd bonus around the time you acknowledge that the proposed Domi has 4 (For the record it doesn't - it has the two bonuses it needs in order to be a viable, interesting, entertaining addition to the Gallente lineup). Blink

What role, niche, or aspect of predicted gameplay do you find this horribly balanced in?

Naso Aya

Imperial Shipment

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 80

#928 - 2013-04-12 00:26:16 UTC

Ersahi Kir wrote:

Rynnik wrote:

That's what happened to the Gallente, isn't it? CCP had some ideas that completely broke the current idea of what Gallente ships are, there is an outcry, and things are "fixed". Amarr ships have equally major changes, half the outcry, and CCP just pulls out the silent treatment.

I'll stay on this thread till we get a response, but I get the feeling CCP doesn't want to respond. I'd love to know why CCP doesn't feel cap will be an issue on the new ships, and know why tachyons are deemed acceptable for the oracle vs battleships, and why the armageddon is a natural for the drone ship besides just 125 meters of drone bay.

Heres what it feels like- the bonuses to the ships don't make them feel any more versatile in what they can do. My Apoc can now shoot frigates in PvP, but it can't kill any decent buffer battleship (try doing enough damage when you cap yourself in 2 minutes). The abaddon is exactly the same except a minor nerf, and it was already the least flexible ship, and the Armageddon has a bonus that applies to a weapon system that will be completely ignored by half the playerbase (those that PvE).


Ashlar Vellum Esquire Armaments Likes received: 463	#929 - 2013-04-12 00:26:44 UTC Kethry Avenger wrote: Any comments on the proposal to change up crystals so we don't just carry, IMF, Cong, Scorch, or IMF, Gleam, Aurora? And maybe Standard if we think we will be shooting a structure for a long time. Why no Xrays, better damage than Scorch, more range than Conflag/IMF.

Jack C Hughes

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 10

#930 - 2013-04-12 01:08:08 UTC

Rynnik wrote:

Arline Kley wrote:

Why are people becoming fixated with making the Apoc either a 6 or 7 turret ship, all to give it a measley 5% dmg bonus per level, which would in turn fall into the purview of the Abaddon?

There is no need to adjust the Apoc's turret layout. It is designed for long range combat - to eliminate the enemy from range with a full broadside of electromagnetic radiation. What would you possibly fit onto the free slot either way? Utility slots are better suited to the Armageddon - the only time I will most likely agree with CCP Rise in this factor.

I support an Apoc turret revision because I really want an Amarr BS with 8 lows. To be truthful though I would be pretty happy if we get any variation beyond 4 mids / 7 lows on all three proposed platforms.

Why the Apoc?

---

The Armageddon can't be the ship because the last thing this game needs is an 8 low neut domi. I don't think I need to go into detail to explain that.

---

The Abaddon would be the natural ship choice to give 8 lows. However, I don't think CCP will go for it.

First off they just nerfed the resist bonus. We don't have the details and this is all just guessing and conjecture until they actually post the resist nerf blog or thread (please do that soon guys!). But it seems reasonable to assume that they want a decrease in the max tank on these hulls (rokh and abaddon) and won't likely entertain an extra tanking slot because of that.

Secondly, the 'increased bonus, decreased turret' configuration needed to free up a slot to be allocated to the lows would also buff cap use (and fitting). These changes pretty clearly indicate they are happy with the abaddon being the cap guzzler that it is. It really is a strong hull and if that aspect is buffed it really starts to risk an even greater proliferation problem. Same problem if the changes worked out to a utility high (if the Hype model was followed). So in order to maintain balance and keep things in check I doubt Abaddon changes work out.

---

That just leaves the Apoc. In order to get these Attack BS flown I think there is some wiggle room given the attraction of flying ABCs instead. A utility high and 8th low are buffs, but nothing that would push this ship into the OMGWTFROFLSTOMP status of the proposed armageddon, the gallente lineup as a whole, and the torp spam about to hit the fan after large missiles get adjusted (willing to bet any amount of isk they get overcompensated in that balance pass).

At 7(6 turret) / 4 / 8 the Apoc would be nicely versatile while still very Amarr with the limited mids. Cap would be a touch more friendly for those low skill missioners or whatever. Tachs would fit a touch easier. I could fit a neut or nos for small gang brawling (yes I would do this using this hull even though the proposed mega and the geddon overshadows it for the role just to get my pew pew laser fix).

So there we are with the substantiation of why I hope that they will at least consider adjusting the hull a bit and bonus it something like:

7.5% per level to damage (keep it right around 8 effective turrets or it WILL be overpowered)
7.5% per level to large energy turret optimal range and tracking (they were definitely on an interesting path with these)

Sorry it took so long to explain that but it is a bit complex! For those that don't agree with the initial premise of Amarr getting an 8 low BS and at least one hull separated from the 4 mids and 7 lows cookie cutter (why are all the Amarr laser cruisers 5/3/7 btw? but that is for another thread) all I can offer is that I really really want it.

Finally got someone explaining this in a more detailed way.

the 7.5% bonus, well, is better than my 10% suggestion. More balanced.~

Wenthrial Solamar

Brand Newbros

Likes received: 22

#931 - 2013-04-12 03:15:49 UTC

So, in case it was not clear, I really don't like the new Armagedden,
but just for for I'm giving it a try to fit up in detail and see how it might work so I can help to polish the turd.

So Since it is the only real option as a solo mission boat after the changes, I'm going to focus on Solo, PvE fits... not really my strong suite, but a good place to start and has a defined set of bounds.

So PvE...
Must be cap stable,
Self tanked,
And able to project enough DPS for a L4...
If I recall from the last time I looked at a mission boat, that translates in to about 1k total DPS + REP, as a bare minimum,
and a need to project DPS out to at least 30km.
If you are a Mission kinda pilot feel free to give me a better set of numbers.

So The pre-patch 'Gedden as a starting point;

7x Meaga Pulse-II's
A flight of Fed Navy Garde's
2x Faction Heat sinks,
2x Faction ENAMS
1x Faction Large Rep.
and a DCU,
2x CCC's
1x Nano Pump
Rest in Cap Mod's

Skills DPS/Tank/Range
Short range with Gard's / Conflag
All V's 1155 / 295 / 25km
4's/V's 1020 / 280 / 23

Long range with Curators/ Scorch
All V's 851 / 295 / 55km
4's/V's 749 / 280 / 53

====================================

Post change, using the pixi dust of All 5's

If I use T-II Torp's and T-II Heavies,
I can make a Cap stable short range fit with a web and a TP,
All V's 1215 / 295 / 16km
4/5's 777 / 295 / 16km ( refitting to Meta Launchers )

So Assuming Perfect Skills, and 2, seldom used T-II Large weapon systems, I can squeeze more DPS out if it things are short range and BIG. But if I need to drop back to Meta Launchers ... the Short range fit loses almost 300DPS.

At long range it's worse, unless you have T-II's

Using Cruise and Sentries, Can fit a prop mod which is nice,
All V's 849 / 295 / 71km
4/5's 555 / 295 / 71km ( refitting to Meta Launchers )

=====================================

Can it do Missions ? yes, I can fit this up and go shoot red x's, But except for being able to select damage type, It is not as good, depends on Ammo, and now requires Two Large weapon systems that are not usually trained by Amarr pilots all the way to T-II to do well.

So lets assume I have 4's in my non-primary weapons systems, so just need to finish up to T-II.... a quick eve-mon skill plan, a quick fake all 4's profile, assume I only want Sentries and Cruise.... and lets see, to run a Mission in this new Hull would only
take my fictional pilot an additional 75ish days...

Wait what ? But I have Drone skills up to all 4's already, and Missile support that high as well... what do you mean over 2 months to go run a mission in this hull ? I HAVE Amarr BS-V and Large Guns and can already mission it the Hull as it is, whay the extra time ?

That's right boys and girls, this change sets you back more than 2 months of training, and is not as good once you finish, why you ask ?
well clearly you should have trained for a Drone boat, your an Amarr pilot, you know the Drone and missile Guys.

Ruze

Next Stage Initiative

Likes received: 523

#932 - 2013-04-12 03:35:51 UTC

I want this, please:

- All three battleships to have superior armor than any other ship from any other race. Why? Because we ARE the armor race. Make the sheer density and amount of our armor be our biggest defining characteristic.

- All three ships to be significantly slower, in relation to the armor, than the battleships of any other race. You win some, you lose some. Mobility, on the other hand, would depend on the role of the bs's. 300lb people can really move quickly, but don't expect them to make the block in under five minutes.

- At least two of the battleships should have 8 lows. I know it's room for weapons mods, and that balancing would have to occur there, but it's also where we keep our armor. This is our racial characteristic, remember?

- At least two of the battleships should be laser boats. One for fighting smaller stuff (more tracking bonuses), one for fighting other BS's and larger stuff. We can't take the sniper cakes, and we don't have the brawler potential, but we damn sure can divide our roles according to what we're supposed to kill in the fleet.

- Our PvE battleship, whichever it be, should have a full compliment of heavies and lights and the capability of being cap stable. If it needs less guns and a damage boost, or better cap recharge? Do it. But remember that as mission running armor tanks, active armor repair is what we have to do, and running heavy guns AND repair, along with everything else, gets costly. This ship should be able to do that and still keep a straight face.

- If you want to give us a drone boat, and give us some missiles to shoot, that's fine. But do NOT sacrifice our armor, or the ability to fit a good set of lasers, to do so. I personally recommend giving us one helluva drone bay, and keeping the missiles as an afterthought. Don't make ANY race triple weapon spec just to use all of its ships.

In my mind:

Armageddon: Our small ship killing laser boat of armored death. Large energy turret tracking and rof boost. Largest capacitor there is. Full low slots.
Apocolypse: The sniper laser boat. Full rack of large tachyons with a damage boost and cap boost. Make it so it can melt other BS's with those large guns, and at good range. Full low slots.
Abaddon: Higher resists, super large drone bay, and the PG/Cap to fit a short row of heavy lasers and still be beast in pvp/pve. Full high slots, but most utility. 4 Missile hardpoints, if you want them. Biggest cargo hold. No, no drone damage boost. But a large energy turret boost and resist boost to make the thing still a beast in pvp. 6 lows, 5 mids. Lots of versatility.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Wenthrial Solamar

Brand Newbros

Likes received: 22

#933 - 2013-04-12 04:01:48 UTC

Oooo.. i found a good Mission fit for the new 'Geddon

[Armageddon, Mission T2]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Dark Blood Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Dark Blood Large Armor Repairer
Damage Control II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Cap Recharger II

425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
[empty high slot]
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Curator II x5
Garde II x5

===============================

Man That That is So cool, whay did I not think of that, Drones and Hybrids ... what a pair !

ShahFluffers

Ice Fire Warriors

Likes received: 11,726

#934 - 2013-04-12 04:18:13 UTC

Wenthrial Solamar wrote:

The Dominix weeps.

How did you Veterans start?

Drunken Bum

Likes received: 432

#935 - 2013-04-12 04:19:44 UTC

imo the amarr ship line was really good, clearly defined roles. Why change this? Tweak them in their current forms, but theres no need for drastic changes.

Okay I'll admit I dont give two ***** about em I'm just annoyed with the domi changes.

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary. -Fozzie

Naso Aya

Imperial Shipment

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 80

#936 - 2013-04-12 04:24:05 UTC

Drunken Bum wrote:

Could be worse, they could have made the Domi into a hybrid platform; that's effectively what they did with the Armageddon.

Vhero' Multipurpose Corp 300
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp Likes received: 300	#937 - 2013-04-12 05:01:35 UTC Naso Aya wrote: they could have made the Domi into a hybrid platform; that's effectively what they did with the Armageddon. That was just an oversight. You'll see - it'll be a hybrid platform in next iteration. Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison

Gordon Esil

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 49

#938 - 2013-04-12 06:31:12 UTC

Mr Hyde113 wrote:

Amarr?

Initial post is the worst of all proposed changes

25 Pages of complaints (mostly)

CCP Rise posts that he is reading them, but isn't changing anything.

He REDUCES the REDUCTION of the Apocs cap to 'solve' our complaint of the Apoc's cap Roll

45 pages....still nothing substantial, especially concerning the Geddon.

I'm just going to keep posting until we get actual revisions. Evil

+100000
Me neither I cannot get how revising/taking community input works
NONE OF THE ADDRESSED CONCERNS WERE EVEN TOUCHED IN THE LAST MESS UP (aka: revision)

Naomi Anthar

Likes received: 387

#939 - 2013-04-12 06:52:05 UTC

LOL , stop complaining awesome changes. I wasn't playing much as of late, i was very busy but i found some time to check what is new. Well ...... all i can say is stfu. New Augoror Navy issue- no cap usage bonus. CCP +100000000000 points. New Omen Navy Issue - no cap bonus , CCP +45646456456456456456 points. Harbinger Navy Issue - no cap bonus ... This is awesome. Rebalanced Battleships - no cap bonuses. I couldn't believe in this all awesomness. But i do now.

I know Amarr ships are cap hungry and this will make problems even bigger BUT ... but finnaly we don't have bonus that was FORCED onto us. FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME WE CAN DECIDE ... yes we can decide IF AND HOW we can deal with this problem. Some people may want to rig for less cap usage, some may fit cap booster etc. AND SOME MAY ignore it as it is. Yes exactly that's what you hear is absolutely true. Because you know some people did fly Abaddon even tho it got no cap bonuses, some people did fly Slicer- tho it got no cap bonuses. "Fly" - ok i'm liar - those ships were extremly popular. BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY HAD BONUSES.

With all honesty i can say that Amarr is finally getting good treatment. Keep it up CCP.

Jack C Hughes

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 10

#940 - 2013-04-12 07:23:37 UTC | Edited by: Jack C Hughes

Naomi Anthar wrote:

I agree with you that abaddon does not have a cap bonus but not the Slicer
It has only 2 turrets, though exactly the same as the other faction frigs, it act as a bonus for Amarr, for laser.
like the Nightmare and Paladin, half turret number=50% off for cap usage.

[edit]
and the problem for battleship:
Navi Slicer has almost twice cap as navi hookbill
but Abaddon do not have even 50% more cap than others. just marginally higher.

First pagePrevious page4546474849Next pageLast page

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Esquire Armaments

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Royal Amarr Institute

Amarr Empire

Chroma Corp

Prismatic Legion

Evasion Gaming

The Ancients.

Imperial Shipment

Amarr Empire

State War Academy

Caldari State

Brand Newbros

Next Stage Initiative

Ice Fire Warriors

Vhero' Multipurpose Corp

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic