These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Porucznik Borewicz
GreenSwarm
#421 - 2013-04-11 19:30:42 UTC
Post number FTW!
Porucznik Borewicz
GreenSwarm
#422 - 2013-04-11 19:31:15 UTC
*snip*
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#423 - 2013-04-11 19:51:11 UTC
Dear CCP Rise

I have a question about ship bonuses in geeral. The only new bonuses were geddon neut and domi range bonuses. Would you be receptive to new bonus proposals?

Possible new bonuses for minmatar would be: web range, painter effectiveness, speed, less heat on prop mods, less heat on projectiles etc.

Pest could use a single 7.5% rof bonus with an additional bonus to supplement it. This would leave the alpha role to mael and create a chance to diversify pest
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#424 - 2013-04-11 20:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sunuva Gunn
Junko Sideswipe wrote:

Phoon was fine with just torps, I liked that idea a lot. The majority of people in the thread don't even know how missiles, especially torps, actually work in the game, so they hurf blurf about it.


I'd really like to see the Phoon get the "Fleet Scythe treatment". That would be awesome. (or failing that, leave the Phoon as it is and add a "Typhoon II" that looks the same but has all those Torps).


Failing that, I think that the total-Torps fit would be popular (though I wouldn't be flying it).


The "some torps, some completely useless turrets" fit is, sadly, luke-warm and pointless.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#425 - 2013-04-11 20:34:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Krell Kroenen
Kagura Nikon wrote:

My opinion is that EVE has become a specialization game. That means you must be good at something that is your focus.

The tempest is simply stuck into 2 bonuses that do the same thing but still not well enough to compensate its 6 turrets and low drone bay size AND lack of enough low slots to fit tank and several damage modules. its a counter productive ship. All tis bonus goes to damage but all its slots layout produces is a subpar shield tanker or a n armor tanker without possibility for enough damage.

The fact that 1 damage mod makes MORE DIFFERENCE than 1 of the tempest bonus is the reason for that. the tempest with only 1 bonus but +1 free low slot would be STRONGER than it currently is.

Tempest would need a 7th low to compete directly with the megatron in a combat scenario usign its current bonuses. That means -1H +1 low

Or it can be made even more minmatar. Reduce tempest to 7k/7k/6.5k. increase its speed to 125ms. Increase its agility to .11

Or you can make the tempest into a different boat. I would love a really different ship. Something like 7.5% rof per level and 15% AB bonus per level (and reduce its mass to close to megathron levels) . I know its niche, but its very minmatar and would not need any slot changes.

There are lot of options, but the real issue of the tempest is related to its slot layout being inefficient for a damage focused ship ( taking from 2 damage bonus on the hull).

If i was to redesign the minmatar line as a whole. I would have made almost the same typhoon as rise. But would have changed the other 2. Would have made the maelstrom 5% rof 10% hitpoint of shield per level. Slow.. a true SHIP OF THE LINE. Would have made the tempest a 7.5% rof and 7.5% shield boost per level and 7/6/6 or 8/6/5, 100mbit bay. But faster than any battleship But the typhoon.



I see, well as I have leaned, raw numbers don't always paint a clear picture for me on how well I will like a ship. I was pretty sure I would be abandoning the use of the cane after it got nerfed but I found out later that for me it still fits my play style better then the other bc's most of the time. Even though the numbers at face value told me I wouldn't.

The problem I face with the Tempest is that I stop using it once I got enough skills to use the phoon decently and then I stop using the phoon for a number of reasons (mainly because I couldn't move up to T2 fittings with the fit I liked the most). So after the Hybrid turret buff I moved to the Mega and been there ever since as my go to BB. It doesn't help that the tier 3 BC's have trampled a bit on the Tempest's turf either.

But I never stop looking back at the Tempest, heck I stared at it numerous times after it got its visual face lift. But I couldn't really embrace it when I compared it to the other ships in my hanger. Hopefully after these changes I will be able too, and I won't fully judge it until I kick the tires so to speak. Yet I am not seeing anything off hand to be excited about with the ship, and I have my doubts about it vs some of the other attack BB's , if it does need tweaks then I hope it receives them before it goes live. But for all that is holy leave it able to armor tank CCP *smirks*
Wolfe Malar
Lone Wolves of Malar
#426 - 2013-04-11 21:08:45 UTC
Minmatar:

Maelstrom
- In combat turret line as expected.
- High slot layout is nice and meshes with other combat turret ships overall. 8 turrets and 0 utility
- Non-drone ship bandwidth needs to either be made consistent across ship line according to race or across all racial non-drone ships. Prefer to limit bandwidth on non-drone Minmatar ships to 75.
- Would like 4 missile hardpoints like the Rokh for extra options and possibilities.

Tempest
- In attack turret line, you scared us there for a second.
- Currently the attack turret line is all over the place on high slot layout. Not bad per say, but if so each needs to have something special. Would prefer if the number of turret and utility slots across the line were consistent.
- Non-drone ship bandwidth needs to either be made consistent across ship line according to race or across all racial non-drone ships. Prefer to limit bandwidth on non-drone Minmatar ships to 75.
- Like the 4missle hardpoints for extra options and possibilities.

Typhoon
- In attack alt (missile) line. The ship would be fit in well if put into either the combat or attack line.
- Like that the turret hardpoints are back, though 4 would mirror the other alternative hardpoint layouts like the Rokh and Tempest, keeping options available is good here.
- Mirrors the other attack alt (missile) ship in high slot layout, yet provides something very different.
- As a Minmatar missile boat, drones play an important role. The reduction to 100 bandwidth makes sense and an equal or even slightly larger bay adds unique flavor without making it a drone boat. Though 125 bandwidth would fit as well.

I have expressed my thoughts on the overall battleship design in the "Introducing Myself....." thread and it contains more detailed reasons for my comments on the specific ships above:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2871021#post2871021
Rahmiro
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#427 - 2013-04-11 21:27:33 UTC
My 2 isk on the Phoon: Take the Guns back and return the drones.

I never seen these people in my life. I don't recognize them Your Honor
Solhild
Doomheim
#428 - 2013-04-11 21:36:58 UTC
Rahmiro wrote:
My 2 isk on the Phoon: Take the Guns back and return the drones.


I'll go along with this.
LOL56
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#429 - 2013-04-11 22:30:18 UTC
I have spend well over an hour and i cant write anything coherent or civil about the new typhoon. I give up, make it into the raven 2.0. Raven 2.0 is a flavorless role for a former swiss army knife, but hay at least I have Ammar BS 5 so i can use the new gedden, and can fly a ship that has real options for fitting.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#430 - 2013-04-12 00:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The previous Tempest iteration was better than what's up here now.
The people complaining about the signature radius are high.
Now the ship is woefully inadequate compared to every other BS.



You are the one high. The 2 secodns extra that other battleships take to lock a tempest provide WAY more Effective hitpoints thatn the little bit it lost. Its very adequate for qhen you want to oerate in an attack role, kill somethign and get out. Very minmatar and much more interesting that simply having more HP taht is a role the tempest would ALWAYS loose to the abaddon.


Those two extra seconds mean very very little when you're damage AND tank is lower than the competition by a fair bit.
None of the battleships are really so cap insecure that dual heavy neuts will make up for the ships lack of dps or hitpoints.
The only thing this ship does is a half-baked nano attempt What?

You've basically just talked yourselves out of a decent armor tanking Tempest, all because you like to think the Tempest is a fast kitey ship with a small sig.

Within your own race you're being outperformed:
For long range the Maelstrom is better.
For nanoing the Typhoon is better.
For brawling either the Typhoon OR Mael do a better job.
For mobile pot shots where you aren't taking any damage, the Tornado is better.

Once you start bringing in the other races, you're even further up **** creek.
Keep in mind that the Megathron is BARELY larger (20m3), quicker and more agile, despite being plated up.

Not the mention the amount of hate for the new Typhoon. Sure I love split weapon systems, and there was nothing really wrong with the old Phoon. HOWEVER, the new one is a better ship.
You people ARE aware how much that ship is going to hurt right?
You're also aware of how bloody fast / agile it is right?

Rise is giving you guys awesome Minmatar ships on a silver platter, and you're collectively taking a dump on it because you'd prefer the race to be inferior.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#431 - 2013-04-12 00:29:02 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Dear CCP Rise

I have a question about ship bonuses in geeral. The only new bonuses were geddon neut and domi range bonuses. Would you be receptive to new bonus proposals?

Possible new bonuses for minmatar would be: web range, painter effectiveness, speed, less heat on prop mods, less heat on projectiles etc.

Pest could use a single 7.5% rof bonus with an additional bonus to supplement it. This would leave the alpha role to mael and create a chance to diversify pest


I respect your opinion quite a bit Deerin, but I hate when people suggest 7.5% RoF bonuses. It just feels like a sneaky way to avoid giving up damage so they can put a 3rd hull bonus on. More specifically:

Damage bonus with 5% damage/level + 5% RoF/level at level 5 = 66.7% increase in turret damage
Damage bonus with 7.5% RoF/level at level 5 = 60% increase in turret damage

I think that hardly qualifies as giving much up when negotiating another bonus on a hull, and I think it's too much to give a basic tech 1 ship.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#432 - 2013-04-12 03:54:03 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The previous Tempest iteration was better than what's up here now.
The people complaining about the signature radius are high.
Now the ship is woefully inadequate compared to every other BS.



You are the one high. The 2 secodns extra that other battleships take to lock a tempest provide WAY more Effective hitpoints thatn the little bit it lost. Its very adequate for qhen you want to oerate in an attack role, kill somethign and get out. Very minmatar and much more interesting that simply having more HP taht is a role the tempest would ALWAYS loose to the abaddon.


Those two extra seconds mean very very little when you're damage AND tank is lower than the competition by a fair bit.
None of the battleships are really so cap insecure that dual heavy neuts will make up for the ships lack of dps or hitpoints.
The only thing this ship does is a half-baked nano attempt What?

You've basically just talked yourselves out of a decent armor tanking Tempest, all because you like to think the Tempest is a fast kitey ship with a small sig.

Within your own race you're being outperformed:
For long range the Maelstrom is better.
For nanoing the Typhoon is better.
For brawling either the Typhoon OR Mael do a better job.
For mobile pot shots where you aren't taking any damage, the Tornado is better.

Once you start bringing in the other races, you're even further up **** creek.
Keep in mind that the Megathron is BARELY larger (20m3), quicker and more agile, despite being plated up.

Not the mention the amount of hate for the new Typhoon. Sure I love split weapon systems, and there was nothing really wrong with the old Phoon. HOWEVER, the new one is a better ship.
You people ARE aware how much that ship is going to hurt right?
You're also aware of how bloody fast / agile it is right?

Rise is giving you guys awesome Minmatar ships on a silver platter, and you're collectively taking a dump on it because you'd prefer the race to be inferior.


Basically all because the phoon is the combat ship, or it should be, the Pest is the attack kitey nano ship. I for one won't be able to use the phoon because I trained minmatar not caldari so I'd like to keep my kiting nano pest thank you very much.

What I and I think many more people want is for the phoons versatility to be INCREASED, so a navy scythe bonus, leave the drone bay, maybe add some fitting and take a low to a mid, add some cpu, job done. The pest needs to be made more tornado like, but with less damage, more ehp and more utility.

That way all the bases are covered.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#433 - 2013-04-12 03:56:13 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Dear CCP Rise

I have a question about ship bonuses in geeral. The only new bonuses were geddon neut and domi range bonuses. Would you be receptive to new bonus proposals?

Possible new bonuses for minmatar would be: web range, painter effectiveness, speed, less heat on prop mods, less heat on projectiles etc.

Pest could use a single 7.5% rof bonus with an additional bonus to supplement it. This would leave the alpha role to mael and create a chance to diversify pest


I respect your opinion quite a bit Deerin, but I hate when people suggest 7.5% RoF bonuses. It just feels like a sneaky way to avoid giving up damage so they can put a 3rd hull bonus on. More specifically:

Damage bonus with 5% damage/level + 5% RoF/level at level 5 = 66.7% increase in turret damage
Damage bonus with 7.5% RoF/level at level 5 = 60% increase in turret damage

I think that hardly qualifies as giving much up when negotiating another bonus on a hull, and I think it's too much to give a basic tech 1 ship.


It would be too much if you had 7 turrets on the Pest, but you don't, you have 6, so even with the double bonus it has currently, damage is still poor. This is ok mind, because it has two utility highs and tracking enhancers are OP. But when they get bought back into line, it'll have a lot less damage projection.

You mean too much for a t1 ship like...IDK Drone damage/hp AND Neut range?

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#434 - 2013-04-12 04:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ersahi Kir
Akturous wrote:
It would be too much if you had 7 turrets on the Pest, but you don't, you have 6, so even with the double bonus it has currently, damage is still poor. This is ok mind, because it has two utility highs and tracking enhancers are OP. But when they get bought back into line, it'll have a lot less damage projection.

You mean too much for a t1 ship like...IDK Drone damage/hp AND Neut range?


I understand the damage projection issue with the tempest, but it is what it is. As it stands a tempest still has 10 effective turrets on it, so it's not that terrible. I'll also agree that everything the tempest does it does because it has 2 utility highs, that seems to be the cornerstone of the ship. It's also why all the roles it fills are so niche.

I really don't know how hard the TE nerf is going to hit the ship. It's hitting a lot of ships at the same time, but minnie ships are by far the most reliant on falloff, so it will probably hit them the most. Only time will tell.

I'm not even going to argue the geddon changes, I feel like we're looking at a freight train coming our way and we can't get out of the way. That ship is going to be a terror in PvP, and I would be suprised if some of the big alliances aren't already queuing up large manufacturing jobs of geddons.

But I just cringe when people suggest a 7.5% RoF/level increase on normal ships. I think I saw someone suggest it for a 8/4/7 typhoon and I was like...12.6 effective turrets and a 125 drone bay is balanced in your mind? It's like many people don't realize how potent that bonus is.
Velix Tessier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#435 - 2013-04-12 05:10:46 UTC
Please remove the unbonused guns, and bring back the drones on the Typhoon.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#436 - 2013-04-12 06:58:46 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Dear CCP Rise

I have a question about ship bonuses in geeral. The only new bonuses were geddon neut and domi range bonuses. Would you be receptive to new bonus proposals?

Possible new bonuses for minmatar would be: web range, painter effectiveness, speed, less heat on prop mods, less heat on projectiles etc.

Pest could use a single 7.5% rof bonus with an additional bonus to supplement it. This would leave the alpha role to mael and create a chance to diversify pest


I respect your opinion quite a bit Deerin, but I hate when people suggest 7.5% RoF bonuses. It just feels like a sneaky way to avoid giving up damage so they can put a 3rd hull bonus on. More specifically:

Damage bonus with 5% damage/level + 5% RoF/level at level 5 = 66.7% increase in turret damage
Damage bonus with 7.5% RoF/level at level 5 = 60% increase in turret damage

I think that hardly qualifies as giving much up when negotiating another bonus on a hull, and I think it's too much to give a basic tech 1 ship.


I agree...but it is already provided to another hull. Look at hyperion. It has a 10% per level damage bonus (which would be insane on a pest...think alpha) AND a rep bonus. Tempest, as it is, is overshadowed by other ships. Needs a flavour. A unique, but not that powerful, bonus would do that. I used 7.5 rof to open space for that new bonus.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#437 - 2013-04-12 08:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ersahi Kir
Deerin wrote:
I agree...but it is already provided to another hull. Look at hyperion. It has a 10% per level damage bonus (which would be insane on a pest...think alpha) AND a rep bonus. Tempest, as it is, is overshadowed by other ships. Needs a flavour. A unique, but not that powerful, bonus would do that. I used 7.5 rof to open space for that new bonus.


Well, the great post swallowing machine strikes again.

I didn't see the hyperion before, it makes me cringe. What's the point of balancing out number of modules if they're just going to randomly increase hull bonus potency. Ah well. If the hyperion can trade a high for a low and an additional +5% damage a level, do you think we could trade 2 highs for a low and a mid and +10% damage per level? I'm sure a 6/6/7 +15% damage/level +5% RoF tempest could find a place in this game. :p

But honestly I don't know what they're doing anymore. Seems like they're letting most ships get turned into the PvP wet dream (particularly with the number of mid slots on armor tanking ships), while a select few ships get the shaft of CCP's vision. Now excuse me, I need to get ready to poke my eyeballs out every time I see a 7 turret hyperion.
Shingorash
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#438 - 2013-04-12 10:13:33 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
Deerin wrote:
I agree...but it is already provided to another hull. Look at hyperion. It has a 10% per level damage bonus (which would be insane on a pest...think alpha) AND a rep bonus. Tempest, as it is, is overshadowed by other ships. Needs a flavour. A unique, but not that powerful, bonus would do that. I used 7.5 rof to open space for that new bonus.


Well, the great post swallowing machine strikes again.

I didn't see the hyperion before, it makes me cringe. What's the point of balancing out number of modules if they're just going to randomly increase hull bonus potency. Ah well. If the hyperion can trade a high for a low and an additional +5% damage a level, do you think we could trade 2 highs for a low and a mid and +10% damage per level? I'm sure a 6/6/7 +15% damage/level +5% RoF tempest could find a place in this game. :p

But honestly I don't know what they're doing anymore. Seems like they're letting most ships get turned into the PvP wet dream (particularly with the number of mid slots on armor tanking ships), while a select few ships get the shaft of CCP's vision. Now excuse me, I need to get ready to poke my eyeballs out every time I see a 7 turret hyperion.


The new Hyperion is fine, it actually works quite well if you run the numbers, there is a EFT plugin already with the latest updates on it.

I still think it needs to lose the armor rep bonus though for a falloff bonus. The ship is so slow it needs more range.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#439 - 2013-04-12 10:17:09 UTC
Hyperion can kind of get away with a 50% damage bonus given the secondary bonus is an active tanking one, which, to many, is less useful than a target painting bonus.... I mean, at least that bonus applies to an effect scales with the engagement (!)

But no, this does not mean that the Tempest isn't boxed in.

We have far too many Armour battleships offering far more than the tempest does in attack or defence. The relative speed/agility advantage the tempest enjoyed as been diminished by new classes and the change of racial meta.

And now somethings got to give.
7/6/5 8/6/5 with a shield/armor HP distribution to match.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#440 - 2013-04-12 10:24:00 UTC
Dear CCP rise:


General analysis on why the battleship changes generated so much frustration. Not only the minmatar ones.

On the tiercide of frigates and cruiser and BC> ... CCP gave us better ships. Make us feel we were gaining with all ships except the ones that were overused (hurricane and drake).


With battleships, that are in much peril of disapearance outside fleet battles, what we gained? Changes just for the sake of chances and even some nerf. People expected and wanted Stronger battleship.

Battleships are the most iconic ships of the races and peopel expect the battleships to reflect the races. They want to be PRIDEFUL of their battleshisp when they reach battleship level.

Help the players to have pride of their battleships and you will have success.


On overall Battleships need a LOT of help to get to the light of the battlefield on the ammounts they should be.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"