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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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raawe
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#381 - 2013-04-11 07:48:31 UTC
Like the changes!
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#382 - 2013-04-11 07:51:10 UTC
Wow no need to be **** dude. Rise is listening to feedback. Maybe offer an alternative layout?

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#383 - 2013-04-11 08:40:54 UTC
Everyone getting mad at changes.

Are rebalancing threads retirement homes ?

Yes, the Typhoon won't be what it always have been.

Yes, it will probably get the same treatment the Cyclone had.

Is it necessarily bad ? Depends.

If you can't adapt/don't want to, then it's probably bad for you.

If you're looking for new things to try, new challenges and new fits to build, then it's probably good for you.

Simple as that.

That said, The current proposed changes seem alright. The Raven still needs to be looked at, but I would be okay to fly the current proposed Typhoon.

Looks like a solid armor brawler as well as a fun shield kiter.

I don't really see what's wrong with changing things. It brings you new stuff to try, ain't that cool ?
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#384 - 2013-04-11 08:50:04 UTC
Akturous wrote:

The Phoon, do what you did with the Navy Scythe, seriously it works for everyone. It gives people with only projectiles the opportunity to use it and people can still fit a full rack of launchers. I'd suggest keeping the drone bay intact, it's something that made this ship so versatile. Infact with the current changes, any versatility the phoon had will be lost, and that's sad.



I'm getting behind this.

I'm also hoping that the Navy Scythe changes won't change things like its tiny Sig and ability to outrun any other cruiser (even ones that are meant to be faster), but I won't get to wound up about that. The Phoon is way more important. Without it the Republic will be left without a Tri-system battleship.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#385 - 2013-04-11 08:58:21 UTC
Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Without it the Republic will be left without a Tri-system battleship.


Considering Tri-system ships are inferior to regular dual-system ships, it probably wouldn't be a bad thing Smile
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#386 - 2013-04-11 09:26:10 UTC
Maelstrom: No change: OK
Tempest: A little on the slow side or should become a real shield tanker with 7/6/6
Typhoon: Pretty good so far, maybe a little bit more grid/fittings.

Either way, drastic changes from this point would probably upset more people than they would please. Just tweaks needed I think.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#387 - 2013-04-11 09:53:45 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Maelstrom: No change: OK
Tempest: A little on the slow side or should become a real shield tanker with 7/6/6
Typhoon: Pretty good so far, maybe a little bit more grid/fittings.

Either way, drastic changes from this point would probably upset more people than they would please. Just tweaks needed I think.



To be frank I stil woudl prefer tempest as 7/5/7 because then we have an oficial armor tanker (I suspect the phoon will be used much more as a shield FAT BC / FAT stealth bomber.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Luke Hammarskjold
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#388 - 2013-04-11 10:12:06 UTC
I really liked the phoon before, but with the reduced drone capabilities I dont think it will be so awesome...
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#389 - 2013-04-11 11:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sunuva Gunn
SMT008 wrote:
Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Without it the Republic will be left without a Tri-system battleship.


Considering Tri-system ships are inferior to regular dual-system ships, it probably wouldn't be a bad thing Smile



I never had an issue with it. (Edit: The projectile/missile/drone split, that is)

SMT008 wrote:

That said, The current proposed changes seem alright. The Raven still needs to be looked at, but I would be okay to fly the current proposed Typhoon.


I'd rather they just look at the Raven, rather than turn the Phoon into a cookie-cutter of it.

SMT008 wrote:

I don't really see what's wrong with changing things. It brings you new stuff to try, ain't that cool ?


Simply that, whilst giving you the new ship with one hand, they're taking away the old one with the other. Sure, give us a missile boat, but don't expect people who don't fly missile boats to want to use them.
Icarius
The Wings of Maak
#390 - 2013-04-11 12:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Icarius
From april 2012 to april 2013, with both typhoon and typhoon fleet, solo pvp, i was able to kill 43 (with typhoon) + 166 (with typhoon fleet) targets for a total dmg done about 100B, for 2 bs loss.
My fit is based on the use of a full rack of siege launchers + 2 heavy unstable and one bcu t2.

So lets speak about your new typhoon ... and I think I know what I'm talking about.

One remarks: for whose who say : if you want to go for missiles use a raven, we do not need an armor raven ... well i need to tank armor and to launch missiles, my personnals stats, and others (from jalmon as example) shows it is more than a viable option ...

On the paper, i should approve these changes but it's a failure, why?

Currently. my dps is : 844 dps, 587dps from torps, 257 dps from drones.

If i move to the new typhoon with the same fit:
My dps will be : 793 dps , 587dps from torps, 205 dps from drones since i have only 4 heavy drones (should i speak about the versatility loss whith the drone bay nerf?).
I still have my 2 heavy neutras and i need them. It helps to break targets tank and get ride of light tacklers.
I lose dps, some drone bay for the gain of a med slot : not worth it.

If i move to the new typhoon and use the 6th launcher.
My dps will be : 910dps , 705 dps from torps, 205 dps from drones, but i lose one neutra.
So i have a dps gain but what is the price for that, a massive loss of versatility and therefore survivability coming from drones nerf and high slot utility nerf.
Again, the 5th medium slot ... is useless, you will not have enough cpu that's all.

I do not want more already ... but the worst is coming

Lets apply my fit to ... the new armageddon, it s not a joke.
My dps will be 856dps, 470dps from torps, 386 dps from drones (nice drone bonus, superb drone bay and bandwith, even amarrs are happy, we take it)
I stil can fit my 2 heavy neutras, oh and unbelievable their range will be almost 38km
funny, more dps than my current typhoon , better neutra range, better drone, better versatility for the price of 54dps loss compared to the new typhoon.

With the current proposition for the bs changes, well i assume i will move to ... an armageddon ... if it is not a failure? what is it?

What is true behind that?
I think you first started to had a launcher slot and remove the turret bonus to create a new missile boat. Then you discovered how unfair it is compared to the raven with its poor drone bay
So you decided to nerf the drone bay and move high slot to a med slot as compensation thus it s not really a gift.

Icarius, futur ex typhoon pilot.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#391 - 2013-04-11 12:43:26 UTC
Luke Hammarskjold wrote:
I really liked the phoon before, but with the reduced drone capabilities I dont think it will be so awesome...

We can try to convience CCP to keep fundamentals of faction versions of Phoon and Domi as they are though.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#392 - 2013-04-11 13:01:05 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Luke Hammarskjold wrote:
I really liked the phoon before, but with the reduced drone capabilities I dont think it will be so awesome...

We can try to convience CCP to keep fundamentals of faction versions of Phoon and Domi as they are though.


A good idea.

Alternatively we could ask them to leave them as they are and add the "Typhoon II" and "Type B Dominix"... Even looking the same it'd stop the whinging in its tracks.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#393 - 2013-04-11 13:08:31 UTC
Sunuva Gunn wrote:
I never had an issue with it. (Edit: The projectile/missile/drone split, that is)


Sure, you can still throw loads of weapons on a ship and get some DPS out of it. What I mean is that, first, you need a massive amount of SPs and second, you need to mix damagemods (or have low-DPS weapons)

The Minmatar Republic just thought it would be better to overhaul the Typhoon into a missile platform, so that the pilots aren't forced to train for everything at once.

Sunuva Gunn wrote:
I'd rather they just look at the Raven, rather than turn the Phoon into a cookie-cutter of it.


Previously, there were no armor/missile boat. Now there's one. Not a bad thing tbh.


Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Simply that, whilst giving you the new ship with one hand, they're taking away the old one with the other.


That is called "Changing things".

Quote:
One remarks: for whose who say : if you want to go for missiles use a raven, we do not need an armor raven ... well i need to tank armor and to launch missiles, my personnals stats, and others (from jalmon as example) shows it is more than a viable option ...


Indeed. We need an armor ship that throw missiles. Maybe not "We need", more like "It would be fun to".

Tbh, the problem with the Typhoon being worse than the new Armageddon comes from the Armageddon itself. Less damage should come from its highslots. As in, reduce how many highslots it has.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#394 - 2013-04-11 13:10:29 UTC
Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Luke Hammarskjold wrote:
I really liked the phoon before, but with the reduced drone capabilities I dont think it will be so awesome...

We can try to convience CCP to keep fundamentals of faction versions of Phoon and Domi as they are though.


A good idea.

Alternatively we could ask them to leave them as they are and add the "Typhoon II" and "Type B Dominix"... Even looking the same it'd stop the whinging in its tracks.



balance and happyness wise that would be the best . But would impact economy, database etc.. and this team might not have authority to do so by themselves.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#395 - 2013-04-11 13:15:06 UTC
Icarius wrote:
Again, the 5th medium slot ... is useless, you will not have enough cpu that's all.


you won't have the 24 cpu for a TP, making your torps more useful against different sizes of ships?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#396 - 2013-04-11 13:18:12 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Luke Hammarskjold wrote:
I really liked the phoon before, but with the reduced drone capabilities I dont think it will be so awesome...

We can try to convience CCP to keep fundamentals of faction versions of Phoon and Domi as they are though.


A good idea.

Alternatively we could ask them to leave them as they are and add the "Typhoon II" and "Type B Dominix"... Even looking the same it'd stop the whinging in its tracks.



balance and happyness wise that would be the best . But would impact economy, database etc.. and this team might not have authority to do so by themselves.


It's going to change the economy anyway. Typhoons will rise in price as they get easier and require less skill to pilot.

As for the database, only the people involved can tell us that, and they won't think to say if we don't ask them first.

I don't think that a single "Mk 2" Battleship per faction would hurt (They wouldn't require any new models or skins, which is nice), but it would, in theory, make everyone happy.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#397 - 2013-04-11 13:36:03 UTC
Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Luke Hammarskjold wrote:
I really liked the phoon before, but with the reduced drone capabilities I dont think it will be so awesome...

We can try to convience CCP to keep fundamentals of faction versions of Phoon and Domi as they are though.


A good idea.

Alternatively we could ask them to leave them as they are and add the "Typhoon II" and "Type B Dominix"... Even looking the same it'd stop the whinging in its tracks.



balance and happyness wise that would be the best . But would impact economy, database etc.. and this team might not have authority to do so by themselves.


It's going to change the economy anyway. Typhoons will rise in price as they get easier and require less skill to pilot.

As for the database, only the people involved can tell us that, and they won't think to say if we don't ask them first.

I don't think that a single "Mk 2" Battleship per faction would hurt (They wouldn't require any new models or skins, which is nice), but it would, in theory, make everyone happy.



I mean the population of blueprints etc... need to make a new insurance price evaluation etc...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Sunuva Gunn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#398 - 2013-04-11 13:50:19 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:



I mean the population of blueprints etc... need to make a new insurance price evaluation etc...


Surely they'll have to make the new insurance price evaluation for -all- the re-balanced ships anyway? The unchanged versions would be the only ones that wouldn't need it. :P

As for the blueprints, retire the old ones to LP stores?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#399 - 2013-04-11 13:51:41 UTC
Sunuva Gunn wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



I mean the population of blueprints etc... need to make a new insurance price evaluation etc...


Surely they'll have to make the new insurance price evaluation for -all- the re-balanced ships anyway? The unchanged versions would be the only ones that wouldn't need it. :P

As for the blueprints, retire the old ones to LP stores?



Easy for you to say. But as I said.. maybe they do not have the authority to decide that only inside the balance team.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#400 - 2013-04-11 13:56:46 UTC
SMT008 wrote:

Sure, you can still throw loads of weapons on a ship and get some DPS out of it. What I mean is that, first, you need a massive amount of SPs and second, you need to mix damagemods (or have low-DPS weapons)

The Minmatar Republic just thought it would be better to overhaul the Typhoon into a missile platform, so that the pilots aren't forced to train for everything at once.

Sunuva Gunn wrote:
I'd rather they just look at the Raven, rather than turn the Phoon into a cookie-cutter of it.


Previously, there were no armor/missile boat. Now there's one. Not a bad thing tbh.


That is called "Changing things".


Indeed. We need an armor ship that throw missiles. Maybe not "We need", more like "It would be fun to".



Except, those of us that trained projectiles...for you know Minmatar...lose a ship, so I'm forced to train them if I want that and my cyclone back. If they gave it navy scythe bonuses, it'd keep everyone happy.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8