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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#261 - 2011-10-31 18:48:05 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Can I ask how you came to the figure of 20% for the tracking boost?

I ask as, in the context of the web changes you refer to (90% --> 60%, representing a 400% change to potential target speeds under webbing), the proposed boost seems a bit 'meh'.

Also one thing that is mentioned a lot is damage; have you ever considered something such as boosting the 'overload' damage for blasters - i.e. you might not make it into the fight, but if you by some miracle get within optimal, you can shunt everything into the guns for a brief period to overwhelm a target.



I like this variation as well.

Like I stated previously, IMHO the stated boost in OP is in the right direction, but at least the blaster boost is too little.

So, either do

A) 10-20% straight damage boost to blasters in addition to the tracking boost

or

B) 5-10% straight damage boost and 20-30% overload damage boost

Numbers might obviously need tweaking but that would indeed make the game so much more exciting to play!

That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to a *Slight* falloff boost to blasters either, though I'd still prefer for them to retain their unique identity as close range face melting instead of just being cap using ACs... (if they have the DPS for the job that is)
Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2011-10-31 18:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kumq uat
This is not bad but I believe Blasters still need some raw dps boost. There were numbers floating around somewhere but the basics were with blasters you only had a few percentage points different in damage between AC and blasters with not near the range or the ability to select damage type. They need to be boosted back into face melters so they are worth going in at 2km and frying people.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#263 - 2011-10-31 18:50:50 UTC
KFenn wrote:
I love all the armchair video game designers in this thread. You don't know exactly how the changes will play out, and you're already calling for more buffs.


Let me anaologize for you: Say rails are a car with square wheels and projectiles are a car with round wheels. The engineers come to you heralding their vision for the former car: A new spoiler, carbon-fiber hood, and superior exhaust system. You stare blankly at the square wheels, wondering how that fundamental flaw could be overlooked.

KFenn wrote:

All we have is numbers. When we try these numbers out for real (and once metagame settles), THEN we'll know if anything else needs changing. Not until.


I think we've been over the "lay back and take it," defense. They want out feedback, not submission.

KFenn wrote:

+1 for what looks like a solid set of changes CCP.


I agree, they're on the right track, but if you're going to shout down anyone saying "this isn't enough," you're clearly out of touch with the obvious flaws hybrids have dealt with for years.
Razor Blue
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2011-10-31 18:51:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Razor Blue
TL Castiel wrote:
Hybrid will still suck!

Hybrid might be a little bit better for PVP but not because of the hybrid boost but because of the hybrid platform boosts (ships).

I have created a little image here to demonstrate what I mean:
Currently the DPS output on the Marauders are as follows for PvE:

http://i43.tinypic.com/s4xwmb.jpg

Kronos: Green
Vargur: Red
Paladin: Blue
Golem: Light blue




Your Kronos fit needs improving, imo.

Heres mine

Still... Im hoping for CCP to look at the T1 hybrid charges. Boost Hybrids by giving them a reason to reload other than antimatter charges too

Edit. Forgot to add that theres no point comparing Marauders. Others can use short range weapons, and Paladin has tier4 long range guns, so Kronos will always seem to be bit underpowered. But it does perform rather nicely with good fit.
Crias Taylor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2011-10-31 18:51:56 UTC
KFenn wrote:
I love all the armchair video game designers in this thread. You don't know exactly how the changes will play out, and you're already calling for more buffs.

All we have is numbers. When we try these numbers out for real (and once metagame settles), THEN we'll know if anything else needs changing. Not until.

+1 for what looks like a solid set of changes CCP.


Even with the speed buff you will still take 2 minutes or more to even get in blaster range while pulse rapes you. Then, when you maybe do finally get in range you don't have a huge dps advantage to make up for the shortcoming of blasters **** range. 

The auto cannon boats can still kite you. 

There is no mystery. It is a start but it is all going to leave hybrid boats being ****. 
Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#266 - 2011-10-31 18:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Raimo
Valarie Rikeen wrote:

We can see that DPS is not too far apart, (768 dps vs 592 dps), yet the speed of a hurricane is 1434 m/s vs the Brutix's 1112 m/s (before the change). Tank is only different by 4k EHP.

thats not really "close" brutix has 25% more damage. also, remember you are comparing a tier 1 BC with a tier 2



Just needed to correct this, read my later post, the real 3 damage mod gank fit overload DPS figures are 965 for Brutix and 905 for Hurricane, sans implants.

Also, the tier system is ******** anyway so it's not a good justification, and in the Gallente case, Brutix is the gank BC anyway Myrm. gank DPS vs Cane is even worse, Myrm ganks for only 868 so fix Hybrids AND Drones, eh?
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#267 - 2011-10-31 18:56:01 UTC
CCp Tallest, may I make a small suggestion: Increase minimum warp range to 200km.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#268 - 2011-10-31 18:57:18 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
I think the better question is: Will those caldari hybid ship pilots be any more or less a waste of space after replacing their AC's with Blasters or Rails. The answer is quite obivously, "no."

Good point, that might actually be the better question.
Without considering drones or missiles (advantage Rupture if included):

Moa (after buff) 200mm rails (three mfs), spike: 73km+13km = 86km, 157 dps, 422 alpha
Rupture 650mm Arties (two tracking enhancers, two gyros), tremor, 57km + 36 km = 93 km, 150 dps, 838 alpha
Rupture 650mm Arties (one tracking enhancer, three gyros), tremor, 50km + 28 km = 78 km, 168 dps, 886 alpha

As far as I can tell, the results are similar with other ammo types.

What compelling reason is there to fly a Moa over a Rupture? What is its niche? Shouldn't Moa dps be significantly higher at the same long ranges as a Rupture, since the Rupture alpha is 2 times as great? Rupture still has same or better dps.
Vedje
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#269 - 2011-10-31 18:57:44 UTC
From what i see, it's pretty simple, no need to complicate things even further

Idk what the general idea was when blasters were conceived,
but CCP need to tare the old blaster scheme down and start a new.

Either A) Less damage, but better optimal, less falloff, among with better tracking
making blasters more like AC. I can see why many disapprove this, indeed it will
take that special something blasters had, however then again not many people are
fascinated with that special something blasters have now.

or B) Continue with current strategy, namely blasters being some sort of space
shotgun. However, if that does come in pass it will mean that gallente ships, due to
seriously low range will need some other bonuses. Such as speed bonuses.
It would be normal that the weapon with lowest range moves at fastest speed
if it was to compete with other systems.
Crias Taylor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2011-10-31 18:57:54 UTC
This is like putting new leather seats in a Ford Pinto. Sure it will be a more comfortable fit and the lighter metals will slighty bump up your acceleration, but you'll be too slow still, unable stretch out your reach and tend to explode before you arrive.
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#271 - 2011-10-31 18:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sam Bowein
@CCP Tallest:
Most of the time, the act of balancing is either too strong and creates a new FOTM (see projectiles buff), or too small and players are unhappy (your current proposal on hybrids).

It think the best way to approach the hybrid problem is to ask the players what they feel is needed. There are a lot of threads where smart people have investigated the problem and proposed solutions.

Make a best-of of these solutions, and let us, players using hybrids, vote on which is best.

Then maybe you'll not have balance (which is IMHO impossible to obtain), but at least you'll have happy players !
Harotak
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#272 - 2011-10-31 18:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Harotak
Good changes, but I would like for blasters to get the same 10% damage buff that rails are getting. Also, its the medium hybrids that suffer the most IMO, so possibly increase their damage buff to 15%?
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#273 - 2011-10-31 19:02:49 UTC
Creat Posudol wrote:
Jeffrey Powel wrote:
carmelos53 wrote:

The proteus in particular is difficult to fit so once these changes hit maybe take another look at mega hulls, bc hulls, t3 and assault ships??


Proteus difficult to fit? lol?


Yea I usually have a noticeable amount of PG (not to mention CPU) left and always feel dirty or like I've done something wrong... who knows, maybe I have?



You care to link your fit?

I'm already waiting for a lol fit or civilian blasters on it. Sry but you're not even close to ever convice me of that.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#274 - 2011-10-31 19:03:16 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:
vote on which is best.


Let us hope it does not ever come to that. lol
Razor Blue
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#275 - 2011-10-31 19:09:52 UTC
Harotak wrote:
Good changes, but I would like for blasters to get the same 10% damage buff that rails are getting. Also, its the medium hybrids that suffer the most IMO, so possibly increase their damage buff to 15%?



Yeah, maybe the boost should be vice versa. Blasters get moar damage and Rails more tracking. Then add bit selection to the ammo damage types and voila
Yvan Ratamnim
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#276 - 2011-10-31 19:13:15 UTC
+10 to speed ? seriously? I don't see that making a big difference, and the +10% damage i still dont see as being enough to bring gallante into the fleets of today....

CCP Tallest, Hybrids are supposed to be the king of all dps there supposed to be monsters, thats why they have multiple negatives....

Negative: Forced into Therm/Kin damage type only
Negative: Capacitor usage
Negative: Ammo required to fill cargo
Negative: 10 second reloads to swap ammo types...

Positive: High DPS

As you can see the HighDPS just doesn't counter the Negatives... Tracking is a huge issue for blasters, but even so with the speed buff ships like the brutix will still DIAF before they get in range of the target, and be able to hold them in place...

The ships either need major speed buffs, more ships with web bonuses, or an ehp buff that will let the little bastards survive enough to get in close to start dealing damage!

TALLEST: There talking about changes to things, how about taking away the stacking penalty from web drones, how about that then suddenly gallante blaster boats can refit with web drones to actually pin there enemy down



Don't get me wrong i'm estatic to see you guys working on hybrids, i just dont think you realize just how badoff gallante ships and weapons currently are in fleet fights (Besides the dominix which has other... graphical fugliness problems) ...
Yvan Ratamnim
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#277 - 2011-10-31 19:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Yvan Ratamnim
X Gallentius wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
I think the better question is: Will those caldari hybid ship pilots be any more or less a waste of space after replacing their AC's with Blasters or Rails. The answer is quite obivously, "no."

Good point, that might actually be the better question.
Without considering drones or missiles (advantage Rupture if included):

Moa (after buff) 200mm rails (three mfs), spike: 73km+13km = 86km, 157 dps, 422 alpha
Rupture 650mm Arties (two tracking enhancers, two gyros), tremor, 57km + 36 km = 93 km, 150 dps, 838 alpha
Rupture 650mm Arties (one tracking enhancer, three gyros), tremor, 50km + 28 km = 78 km, 168 dps, 886 alpha

As far as I can tell, the results are similar with other ammo types.

What compelling reason is there to fly a Moa over a Rupture? What is its niche? Shouldn't Moa dps be significantly higher at the same long ranges as a Rupture, since the Rupture alpha is 2 times as great? Rupture still has same or better dps.




THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Give rails ROF not damage, make it so that Railguns are the Autocannons of long range... and blasters are the artillery of in your face FU damage (But even more than artillery since artillery get to choose there damage type and use no cap)
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#278 - 2011-10-31 19:25:18 UTC
Quote:
Javelin, Gleam and Quake (all sizes): Removed tracking speed penalty, added 25% tracking speed bonus

Hail (all sizes): Removed falloff penalty


Speaking as a Minmatar, I hereby declare my love for CCP Tallest. Cool

Very nice to see CCP identifying an related issue and taking the time to address it there and then. Good stuff.

http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/

The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.  Join channel JORIS to learn more!
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2011-10-31 19:26:36 UTC
The major problem for gallente gun vessels (not drone boats) is the combination of armor tank and short range guns.
Not beeing able to reach 30km , which is warp disruptor kiting range, because of lacking low slots and slowest ship layout is devastating.


it should be minmatar using hybrid and gallente using projectiles.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#280 - 2011-10-31 19:27:38 UTC
Jeffrey Powel wrote:
And after that hybrid will be overpowered. Ok for a boost, but don't joke.
BTW i like the concept to have 2 close range ammo whith different kin/therm %, very nice idea.


not really blaster are looking at an 8% increase to dps... but a 50% increase to alpha...


though rails are getting a 45% increase to dps (which sounds like a lot) but if ccp does not fix probs then rails will need that means rails need that much more damage...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.