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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#681 - 2013-04-10 15:25:54 UTC
Hello Amarrian citizens

I wanted to drop a quick note to assure you that we are still here monitoring feedback. We've had several discussions about the state of the Amarr mission runner both before we released this proposal and now after we've seen some feedback. So far, we aren't convinced that changes will be necessary, but we are going to keep a close eye on it. This may be a discussion that will be more productive after these ships make it to Singularity and some actual flight testing can happen.

Please keep up the discussion Big smile

@ccp_rise
Jack C Hughes
State War Academy
Caldari State
#682 - 2013-04-10 15:27:33 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Jack C Hughes wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Rynnik wrote:
All three of these BS share 4 mids, 7 lows. You may have diversified away from lasers on all of them but you sure didn't shake up much else - especially in light of a Gallente 8 low BS. How about a Hyperion treatment with double damage bonus on 6 turrets for the Apoc. That further assists the cap issues and allows a slot to be reallocated to the lows.

^^^^ This. You've already given the Dominix as a T1 hull a Role bonus (the only one I've yet seen in the game, btw), you could very well do the same with the Apoc.


all attack frigs do have role bonus
and where is the role bouns for domi? I did not see any.


Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)

Check one of the more recent posts on the Gallente BS thread by CCP Rise, he is giving the Domi a Role Bonus: +50% Drone Control Range.


still can't find it.
It is not on the main dev post page, anyway.
AyayaPanda
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#683 - 2013-04-10 15:28:33 UTC
Hi Rise,

Since you want to give Hyperion and Mega 8 lows, can Amarr bs have 8 lows as well? Big smile

At least the geddon?

geddon
6/4/8
+10% to Drone damage and Hit Points
+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range, +3% nuet/nos amount

Please...
Jack C Hughes
State War Academy
Caldari State
#684 - 2013-04-10 15:28:58 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello Amarrian citizens

I wanted to drop a quick note to assure you that we are still here monitoring feedback. We've had several discussions about the state of the Amarr mission runner both before we released this proposal and now after we've seen some feedback. So far, we aren't convinced that changes will be necessary, but we are going to keep a close eye on it. This may be a discussion that will be more productive after these ships make it to Singularity and some actual flight testing can happen.

Please keep up the discussion Big smile


Thank you for your work and time.
Big smile
Crash Lander
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#685 - 2013-04-10 15:31:59 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Crash Lander wrote:

Your point is just as valid as the quote. Hence we have a problem. One one hand you have fleet uses for a ship (any ship) that generally don't have to deal with cap problems too much (engagements are short, there are guardians around etc). These situations favor the tracking bonus.

On the other hand you have the traditional domain of this ship. Solo/small group PvE used mostly beginners before they move to other hulls. The removal of the cap bonus is bad here.

I can tell you as someone that does a fair bit of PvE with amarr ships that the cap bonus really made this ship (and its navy variant) distinct from the other two ships.

That second group is just as large (if not larger) than the first. This is what CCP gets for shoehorning PvP oriented changes across the entire BS line.

there is no problem with taking pvp first then pve second , there are marauders entirely for pve , when they get the balance pass ,just be rdy to adress your issues


I was expecting a reply like this. That is why I emphasized mostly beginners before they move to other hulls. You just can't compare the time it takes to get into an Apoc to a Murader. If training times were even remotely close I would agree with you.
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#686 - 2013-04-10 15:35:19 UTC
Arya Greywolf wrote:
Seeing as the Megathron and Hyperion got insane buffs on your last pass over, I think the main armor, laser boat of the Amarr should get a buff as well.

These changes would be very becoming of the Abaddon:

-2 high slots, make it 10% damage per level --> like the hyperion got.
+1 low, so 8 lows --> like the Megathron got.

Amarr is the armor race. The Abaddon is supposed to be a massive brick. If the megathron is getting an 8th low, the Abaddon needs one too.

People liked the amarr battleships just fine until they saw the reworked mega/hype :/

Its like: Mmm, this is a lovely lollipop!
*sees Gallente has a slightly bigger lollipop*
WHAT?! This lollipop sucks, I WANT A BIGGER LOLLIPOP TOO! *tantrum*

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#687 - 2013-04-10 15:36:24 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello Amarrian citizens...

Good to hear, now what about a more detailed description of where you are heading because it sure looks like you are discarding 10 years of design philosophy and eliminating a lot of the distinguishing characteristics of the races.

Also, in those internal discussion, could you casually let slip "So, what do we do about the 3rd short range laser option for cruisers and battleships which is currently missing?" Big smile
Jack C Hughes
State War Academy
Caldari State
#688 - 2013-04-10 15:37:59 UTC
KuroVolt wrote:
Arya Greywolf wrote:
Seeing as the Megathron and Hyperion got insane buffs on your last pass over, I think the main armor, laser boat of the Amarr should get a buff as well.

These changes would be very becoming of the Abaddon:

-2 high slots, make it 10% damage per level --> like the hyperion got.
+1 low, so 8 lows --> like the Megathron got.

Amarr is the armor race. The Abaddon is supposed to be a massive brick. If the megathron is getting an 8th low, the Abaddon needs one too.

People liked the amarr battleships just fine until they saw the reworked mega/hype :/

Its like: Mmm, this is a lovely lollipop!
*sees Gallente has a slightly bigger lollipop*
WHAT?! This lollipop sucks, I WANT A BIGGER LOLLIPOP TOO! *tantrum*


It is not like that.
From the very begining I was asking for sth for new player pve.
We amarr simple don't have any.

I like the geddon though~ lol
Kerdrak
Querry Moon
#689 - 2013-04-10 15:38:24 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello Amarrian citizens

I wanted to drop a quick note to assure you that we are still here monitoring feedback. We've had several discussions about the state of the Amarr mission runner both before we released this proposal and now after we've seen some feedback. So far, we aren't convinced that changes will be necessary, but we are going to keep a close eye on it. This may be a discussion that will be more productive after these ships make it to Singularity and some actual flight testing can happen.

Please keep up the discussion Big smile


Some considerations of your changes:

Gallente battleships use 6-7 guns. This is tiny detail, but means less capacitor, less ammo, less guns to buy.
Gallente battleships are now the ARMOR race (armor bonus/8 low slots). You are destroying the Amarr philosophy.

Please, reconsider this changes because you are overlapping races now: 2 guns platforms, 1 drone platform.

I would redo the Armageddon to an unbonused drone platform (still able to launch 5 heavy drones), giving back the 8th low slot and 5 guns with a damage/rof bonus. 4 mids for cap injection since would be a very cap intensive battleship (neutralizers/lasers)

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% RoF lasers
+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range (replaced large energy turret cap use)

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 8L; 5 turrets(-2)
Fittings: 16500 PWG, 550 CPU(+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(+1331) / 8500(+1859) / 8000(+1789)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(-5) / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4)
Signature radius: 450 (+80)
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#690 - 2013-04-10 15:38:35 UTC
Loki Vice wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
OP updated for some slight tweaks to the Apocalypse and Armageddon. Cap stability increase for Apoc and a powergrid tweak for the armageddon.



TO further iterate, the Abaddon is now the brawler of choice for your changes, spoiler alert, the abaddon isn't capable of running it's guns/prop mod/armor tank. so in order to keep those things running, you have to bring carriers or a fleet of logi not to rep them necessarily, but to keep them shooting, and no one wants to engage a fleet of abaddons with an overly large gang of logi behind it.

the apox is NOT a brawling ship, it doesn't do the damage nor does it have the tank to be able to brawl, it has always been a sniping ship of sort with it's range bonus and sorch, so it's a moot point here.

The armageddon WAS the amarr's ship that was capable of fighting under it's own pretense, it didn't support the tank of the abaddon, but it also didn't suffer from the cap issues. By removing this ships roll you have reduced amarr gangs to bring more logi than is necissary to fights which will makes pilots grumpy and unhappy. (that and the new geddon design is ****)

^^^^ This overall proves my point about the Abaddon. CCP Rise, you are insisting that this hull be the Combat (aka) brawler, but as stated here, as it currently stands, it can not do this without massive support, which means that unlike other races brawlers, it will never be used solo or in small gangs because it can't be used like that.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#691 - 2013-04-10 15:41:31 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
there is no problem with taking pvp first then pve second , there are marauders entirely for pve , when they get the balance pass ,just be rdy to adress your issues

The problem is that they are in every way inferior to faction/navy ships, which I doubt any balance pass would change.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
steejans nix
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#692 - 2013-04-10 15:41:40 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Tonto Auri wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Armageddon:


/facepalm
Double one.
Killed an othervise good ship, that were in need of just a few tweaks... I have no words.

If by killed you mean made more powerful, sure. Smile

By killed I mean killed. Armageddon was already a good example of how to design an attack BS. But CCP Rise seems to accidentally decided, that "BS" means "bullshit", in this case...


This, the Geddon as it is now is just what an attack BS should be, good dps and an ok tank, while some people are drooling over the new mini Bhaal they would of been if it was done to the Apoc or Baddon ( add any other bs going to that list ) no matter what bs was used people would of loved the idea, but the fact remains the geddon was as close to what an attack BS should of been without any changes and a lot of us will lament the loss of this great BS.
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#693 - 2013-04-10 15:41:52 UTC
Kerdrak wrote:


Some Gallente battleships are now the ARMOR race (armor bonus/8 low slots). You are destroying the Amarr philosophy.


You realise how ironic that is in light of the new Amarr drone ships dont you?

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Hulasikaly Wada
DO.IT
I.N.D.E.P.E.N.D.E.N.T
#694 - 2013-04-10 15:42:43 UTC

[Apocalypse, New apoc 100km 420 dps]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Skill all lvl 5 , the ONLY range based laser BS with meta 4 of the best ( dps X range ) laser turret end with 420 dps at 100 km and need the cap booster to run or will cap out in 2 minutes .....................................

T2 tachyons require too much to fit and another 20% of cap to fire ,

A new Domonix end with 700 dps at 140 km with cap-less t2 sentries

( just i dont care because anyway i am 50 days from all 4 race BS to 5 ..... )

Hula
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#695 - 2013-04-10 15:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tonto Auri
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello Amarrian citizens

I wanted to drop a quick note to assure you that we are still here monitoring feedback. We've had several discussions about the state of the Amarr mission runner both before we released this proposal and now after we've seen some feedback. So far, we aren't convinced that changes will be necessary, but we are going to keep a close eye on it. This may be a discussion that will be more productive after these ships make it to Singularity and some actual flight testing can happen.

Please keep up the discussion Big smile

If you take our suggestions in count, I don't see an issue taking attack Armageddon into the mission field, or drone/missile/neut(?) Abaddon.
But as it stand currently in your plan, all 3 ships are complete bullshit (Fits the "BS" abbreviation, but I doubt it was intended.)

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#696 - 2013-04-10 15:45:28 UTC
AyayaPanda wrote:
Hi Rise,

Since you want to give Hyperion and Mega 8 lows, can Amarr bs have 8 lows as well? Big smile

At least the geddon?

geddon
6/4/8
+10% to Drone damage and Hit Points
+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range, +3% nuet/nos amount

Please...

Make that crap to Abaddon. Please.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Doctor Ape MD
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#697 - 2013-04-10 15:49:00 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello Amarrian citizens

I wanted to drop a quick note to assure you that we are still here monitoring feedback. We've had several discussions about the state of the Amarr mission runner both before we released this proposal and now after we've seen some feedback. So far, we aren't convinced that changes will be necessary, but we are going to keep a close eye on it. This may be a discussion that will be more productive after these ships make it to Singularity and some actual flight testing can happen.

Please keep up the discussion Big smile


I'm hoping this is because some unannounced laser changes (less cap use) are coming our way.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#698 - 2013-04-10 15:52:41 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Jack C Hughes wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Rynnik wrote:
All three of these BS share 4 mids, 7 lows. You may have diversified away from lasers on all of them but you sure didn't shake up much else - especially in light of a Gallente 8 low BS. How about a Hyperion treatment with double damage bonus on 6 turrets for the Apoc. That further assists the cap issues and allows a slot to be reallocated to the lows.

^^^^ This. You've already given the Dominix as a T1 hull a Role bonus (the only one I've yet seen in the game, btw), you could very well do the same with the Apoc.


all attack frigs do have role bonus
and where is the role bouns for domi? I did not see any.


Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)

Check one of the more recent posts on the Gallente BS thread by CCP Rise, he is giving the Domi a Role Bonus: +50% Drone Control Range.

Yeah, thats my next stop as well... to check that out. Interesting precedent.

To avoid pyramid quoting the Apoc tracking bonus above, folks please keep in mind that if you are in a close quarters fight you've made a horrible mistake at some point.

As a kiting vessel the Apoc will never be wanting to rely on it's tank, other than to buy it enough time to warp out and then back in at range. The most effective way for it to avoid being tackled and pounded is to have the ability to effectively bring it's main gun to bear on whatever is trying to tackle it.... and to keep the mobility to keep its primary targets at a range that they cannot effectively return fire at.

Pulse laser able to hit everything on the field effectively out to 60-80km is a HUGE advantage that can be exploited extremely well if your tactics are correct. If beams are reworked the possibilities of huge range AND excellent tracking are simply amazing. There is simply no other bonus that compliments this type of combat as well.

Testing will reveal if the cap issues need to be addressed further. If all is workable on that front we will soon see fleet doctrines in force that we haven't seen in a couple of years see a resurgence in popularity... although some of that may depend on what they do with the new scanning system.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
#699 - 2013-04-10 15:55:27 UTC
Hi Rise,

Here's a scenario I'd like to propose.

A Ferox and a Mega drop on a post Odyssey Geddon at 40 k. What happens ?

If the Geddon is smart, he drops 4 neuts on the Mega and 2 Nos on the Ferox. If he cycles the neuts just right even with a cap booster the Mega is gonna have a hell of a time burning into range and having any cap left to fire even a single shot. The Geddon might have to snap off a cap booster or 2, but as long as that ferox stays on grid his cap is doing more to help kill his friend than his dps is helping to save him.

What if the Geddon's bonus was to Neut's Only. Personally, I still find it to be kinda OP but without the bonus to NOS a Geddon will be somewhat restrained in it's cap warfare capability. He'll either need help from cap trans logi or he'll have to manage cap boosters very well. Tweak the drone bonus to 100 and it moves into the realm of strong but not Deathmachine.

3 Neuts, 4 Torps/Cruise, 4 Heavies. Not my first choice of someone i want to crash into in a cap dependent ship but a large measure better than the Uber beast being proposed atm.

As proposed it's just to much. The Neut bonus is a game changer. Add the firepower of 5 heavies AND a 375 drone bay and you've pushed this ship into a completely different tier from any other hull. 100-150 puts a limit on how OP it can be. Geddon will be a challenge to fly. You'll have to simultaneously perform cap and drone management with only a thin margin of error for both. As is, it's just a win button under 45k.
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#700 - 2013-04-10 15:57:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Armageddon:

This is a fun one. Bet you guys didn't think my first two projects would be to slow down the Talos and throw the old Armageddon out the window! But! I think its the best thing for the race line overall. What we've done here is make the Armageddon an echo to the new dragoon destroyer. It makes sense for Amarr to have a battleship variation that rewards players who've trained for dragoon -> arbitrator -> prophecy, and with the neut range bonus, the Armageddon should be a huge payoff. As the Armageddon is falling under 'combat' it will receive a substantial hitpoint boost, sensor strength boost, sig increase, and speed decrease.

While we understand that this is a very powerful ship, it should not be oppressive. Hopefully it will offer a new type of challenge to fly and fly against. To anyone who is very sad to see the old Armageddon go, I encourage to you consider that if left the same, it would have been even more crowded by the Abaddon as a result of the price adjustment than it already was. Again, we look forward to your feedback.

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% to Drone damage and Hit Points (replaced large energy turret rate of fire)
+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range (replaced large energy turret cap use)

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 7L(-1); 5 turrets(-2) , 5 launchers(+5)
Fittings: 13500 PWG(-3000), 550 CPU(+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6800(+1331) / 8500(+1859) / 8000(+1789)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(-5) / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375(+250)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4)
Signature radius: 450 (+80)


Boo! Bring back Fozzie, at least he allowed variation between the races. What you've done here is made a beefier counterpart to the Dominix that gets a neuting bonus as well as a damage bonus to drones. So what happened to Gallente being all about brawling? Range is not something that matters particularly on drones. To have two identical ships except with one heavier and more suitable for PVP due to neuting makes little to no sense. Put the geddon back how it was, or give the domi extra damage and a bit more armour in order for it to properly brawl.

Dodixie > Hek