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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#261 - 2013-04-10 09:57:11 UTC
Meant turrets, sorry about that =)

@ccp_rise
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#262 - 2013-04-10 09:59:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Garresh
Changes are on the whole rather positive. I expect others will dissect the fine points of the tempest shortly, but for now I +1 the changes.

There are a few things about the Typhoon I still want to see changed. If nerfing the drone bay is set in stone, can we possibly see it changed to a 100/125 bay? Or even a 75/125 bay. Give up a bit more firepower for a bit more utility. I strongly feel the extra drone storage is one of the defining traits of the Typhoon. And I still rather hope we can get some token gun bonuses on the Typhoon even though it's always been a better missile ship. But I guess that's more wishful thinking now. Good work overall.


Edit: Actually, since you're reading this thread can I ask something? From a design perspective, what's the reason that dual weapon bonuses can't be merged and count as 1 bonus for the purpose of ship design? I.e. +5% damage to launchers and projectiles counts as 2 bonuses. I've noticed in the past you guys have kind of avoided that change despite a lot of people suggesting it. I figure you guys have a decent reason, and if it's nothing more than "too much damage" I'd buy that. An old Typhoon with max skills could potentially spew like 1400 DPS easily. I've seen fits with 1600 DPS. And that was with a "missing" bonus. Is there any other reason though?

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#263 - 2013-04-10 10:04:18 UTC
why does the phoon need utility slots? it doesnt need the cap but it could use an extra launcher instead

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Lunaleil Fournier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#264 - 2013-04-10 10:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunaleil Fournier
Good change putting the Tempest into the attack role, I think that's the more natural place for it to be. After reading all updates for all the races today I have to say you did a pretty good job all around Rise.

Are we still getting a thread on the shield/armor resist bonus?
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2013-04-10 10:06:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect changes we've made based on your feedback.

Attack Tempest is now online, and Typhoon has its turrets back - both of them have signature lowered.


You're still making the mistake of the tempest having more armour than shield, if you want armour you go typhoon. The tempest is still weak and needs a falloff bonus post TE nerf.

You've still stolen a turret boat from me, make the typhoon split weapon bonuses, but give it full bonuses for both projectiles and missiles and a full rack of hardpoints for each, it's not hard, it's not op, it keeps everyone happy.

I'm kind of tired of having nearly 50mill sp and you keep taking available ships from me by making them missiles.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#266 - 2013-04-10 10:19:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect changes we've made based on your feedback.

Attack Tempest is now online, and Typhoon has its turrets back - both of them have signature lowered.



Reasonably OK..... But should not the tempest have at least same speed you had proposed to the megathron (since both are attack and minmatar are supposed to be faster) ? Something like 122 or 123 on its base speed would be plenty justifiable (minir effect on balance but helps to keep "the identity" of minmatar). Its mostly a flavorful observation.





Second, not direclty related to tempest:

Battleships currently have a problem to be used effectively. I would suggest small things to be applied to all class to keep them a bit more deployable. Simply give extra 25M od DRONE BAY, to every battlewship that does not have spare drone bay for a spare flight of lights.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#267 - 2013-04-10 10:35:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Seishi Maru
Should not the tempest receive some of the hyperion treatment and move a High to a low or to a mid?

The hyperion is still more agile than the ATTACK MINMATAR BATTLESHIP. Almost same speed, but far superior slot layout, more damage, better tank. The only cost being the signature (That indeed helps tempest against capital ships) and cap consumption of the guns. Their HP seems correct based ont heir role. Way more HP on the hyperion. But the hyperion is not paying up the cost of the combat role that should be mobility.


It seems would be plenety jutifiable to make a tempest 7/6/6 or 7/5/7 On the same trend you used in gallente to solve their issues.

Or you could simply increase tempest speed a bit further (base speed, to something like 125 to make the ATTACK battleship from the FAST RACE be really faster than the COMBAT battleship form the SECOND FASTEST RACE. See the problem I pointed?
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#268 - 2013-04-10 10:41:05 UTC
Seishi Maru wrote:

It seems would be plenety jutifiable to make a tempest 7/6/6 or 7/5/7 On the same trend you used in gallente to solve their issues.

Or you could simply increase tempest speed a bit further (base speed, to something like 125 to make the ATTACK battleship from the FAST RACE be really faster than the COMBAT battleship form the SECOND FASTEST RACE. See the problem I pointed?


A 7 - 6 - 6 setup would be good for a Combatish - Attack Battleship.

5 mids would look like a Typhoon. 6 is just fine.
Khaeros
Mardukan Military Industries
#269 - 2013-04-10 10:44:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Khaeros
Nice to see some flexibility returned to phoon. But I dare say it isn't enough (the greedy git I am).

Take a look at the new Geddon, it has a lot of flexibility. Drones with bonii, and a choice of guns or missiles, or pure ewar.. this is even more than Typhoon had. You are just transferring the swiss army spaceship to Amarr..

Typhoon needs bonii for both weapon systems to be competetive, to be flexible again. Consider making typhoon a sort of counterpart to geddon, bonii in weapons but but with full flight of drones as opposed to geddons bonused drones and unbonused weapons. The ewar bonus can be contered with ability to either shield or armor tank, which is what geddon doesn't have.

I like the idea of fast torpedo-ganker, and have used the phoon as such (didn't work too well then), but not at the cost of typhoons characteristic flexibility. Better make it but one of the choices typhoon has.

My suggestion to bonii would be:

+x to large projectile dmg/missile exp radius(or exp.speed or raw dmg...)
+y to large projectile rof/large missile launcher rof

or if dual bonii are undoable, use duct tape:

+x to large projectile dmg
+x to large missile exp.radius(or exp.speed or raw missile dmg)

AND a role bonus of +5y to large projectle RoF and +5y to large missile RoF.
Miran Sky
27B Stroke 6
#270 - 2013-04-10 10:47:13 UTC
I mostly like the direction you are taking the Typhoon, with the switch to pure missiles over a split weapon system. That is how I ran it anyway. The one thing I am finding lacking is the lost utility drone bay. Even if you keep the bandwidth at 100 to balance out the extra missile damage, I still will greatly miss the ability to field light drones. Something along the lines of 100/125 would be much better, while not increasing the damage output of the ship for balance purposes.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#271 - 2013-04-10 10:59:17 UTC
The new iteraction prooves that CCP is up to listening us and seeign when somethign is wrong. My new worries is that inter race balance is a bit off. Gallente new iteraction became WAY more powerful than before and geddon is still a monster.


The Megathron is still faster than the ATTACK Battleship from the race that is supposed to be the fastest. While having a FAR superior slow layout. Far better bonuses (since it does more damage even using only a single bonus for that). The hyperion is only slightly slower than both of them ( more the case of the hyperion should loose 5 m/s) while beign the most powerful brawler of the recent changes.


Just make tempest as fast as mega (both attack ships, so no more excuse for tempest being slower than mega, that is trespassing violently the boundary of races.), and or as has been defended for years, get 1 of its highs to somewhere else. When you have a battleship of 6 turrets you want the advantage of having that space allocated in lows or mids.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Alek Row
Silent Step
#272 - 2013-04-10 11:14:52 UTC
If Tempest is an attack ship, this values do not seem correct:

Tempest : Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .12 / 101050000(-2250000) / 16.81s(-.37s)
Megathron : Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s)

I understand the mass (something done a few years ago already), the "why" of align/agility, but I don't understand the speed.

About the drones on the Typhoon, it was the only Minmatar battleship that could launch 125m3 of drones. It would be great if you could find a way to maintain the old bandwidth. I also agree with the fact that the drone bay could have at least 25m3 of extra room, not only in the Typhoon.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#273 - 2013-04-10 11:30:05 UTC
I'm impressed with both iterations to the Typhoon and the Tempest, the Tempest in particular is looking much much better. I'm still going over some of the finer points of balance, as others have said I think it could do with a few more tweaks.

One question which jumped out at me though which maybe CCP Rise could answer if he gets a chance. The Tempest originally was able to fit a pretty good shield or armour tank. It seems with this iteration you have given slightly more armour than shield. I think it was a nice ability of the Tempest to be able to fit both tanks effectively, and wondered if you are gearing it towards an armour tank instead of shield now?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#274 - 2013-04-10 11:32:36 UTC
Alek Row wrote:
If Tempest is an attack ship, this values do not seem correct:

Tempest : Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .12 / 101050000(-2250000) / 16.81s(-.37s)
Megathron : Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s)

I understand the mass (something done a few years ago already), the "why" of align/agility, but I don't understand the speed.

About the drones on the Typhoon, it was the only Minmatar battleship that could launch 125m3 of drones. It would be great if you could find a way to maintain the old bandwidth. I also agree with the fact that the drone bay could have at least 25m3 of extra room, not only in the Typhoon.



It looks even worse when you compare to the Hyperion that should be a COMBAT battleship. Tempest should be able to go faster than any battleship BAR the typhoon.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#275 - 2013-04-10 11:37:01 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Alek Row wrote:
If Tempest is an attack ship, this values do not seem correct:

Tempest : Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .12 / 101050000(-2250000) / 16.81s(-.37s)
Megathron : Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s)

I understand the mass (something done a few years ago already), the "why" of align/agility, but I don't understand the speed.

About the drones on the Typhoon, it was the only Minmatar battleship that could launch 125m3 of drones. It would be great if you could find a way to maintain the old bandwidth. I also agree with the fact that the drone bay could have at least 25m3 of extra room, not only in the Typhoon.



It looks even worse when you compare to the Hyperion that should be a COMBAT battleship. Tempest should be able to go faster than any battleship BAR the typhoon.

why should it be faster?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#276 - 2013-04-10 11:40:57 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Alek Row wrote:
If Tempest is an attack ship, this values do not seem correct:

Tempest : Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .12 / 101050000(-2250000) / 16.81s(-.37s)
Megathron : Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s)

I understand the mass (something done a few years ago already), the "why" of align/agility, but I don't understand the speed.

About the drones on the Typhoon, it was the only Minmatar battleship that could launch 125m3 of drones. It would be great if you could find a way to maintain the old bandwidth. I also agree with the fact that the drone bay could have at least 25m3 of extra room, not only in the Typhoon.



It looks even worse when you compare to the Hyperion that should be a COMBAT battleship. Tempest should be able to go faster than any battleship BAR the typhoon.

why should it be faster?



because MINMATAR are supposed to be the fastest RACE, That is their trait. Same way that gallente are supposed to be the highest DPS and have the largest HULL Hp pool.

Attacks ships are described as faster than cobmat ones. Therefore the FAST type of the FASTEST race should not be less mobile than the SLOW TYPE of other races? Clear enough? Also Minamtar has always been and are slightly faster than gallente in ALL CLASSES.


As we rages on pages after pages. We want races identities to be respected. Even if for that it need to loose a tiny bit more of HP.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bereza Mia
Trade Federation of EVE
#277 - 2013-04-10 11:42:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bereza Mia
CCP Rise wrote:
Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!


Dear CCP Rise.

Now matars have the best turret ships.
Soon matars will have the best missile ship.
Finally, make the last step - give to matars the best droneboat, and you can just remove the remaining races from the game.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#278 - 2013-04-10 11:48:19 UTC
I think it would be alright to keep the Tempest a little slower as long as its HP is buffed accordingly. That way it can straddle the combat, attack BS line but still keep its inherent characteristics

120m/s was its original speed which has been left unchanged, I don't think a little extra would hurt though seeing as it is now a combat BS. Signature is a little higher than before by +20 which I won't complain about even though I'd prefer it to be at current levels.

Personally I would keep the speed and signature, perhaps buff speed and agility slightly, and increase shield to the same level as armour at 7300.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#279 - 2013-04-10 11:56:51 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
I think it would be alright to keep the Tempest a little slower as long as its HP is buffed accordingly. That way it can straddle the combat, attack BS line but still keep its inherent characteristics

120m/s was its original speed which has been left unchanged, I don't think a little extra would hurt though seeing as it is now a combat BS. Signature is a little higher than before by +20 which I won't complain about even though I'd prefer it to be at current levels.

Personally I would keep the speed and signature, perhaps buff speed and agility slightly, and increase shield to the same level as armour at 7300.



Contrary it was a combat. and now it will be an attack Therefore it need to move as an ATTACK. Megatron is faster and have SUPERIOR layout, and an extra bonus effectively (since the mega still do more damage than the tempest using 2 bonus). The mega is superior as attack and superior as combat right now.


The hyperion is a completely different issue. Its FAR too powerful now.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#280 - 2013-04-10 11:59:24 UTC
Bereza Mia wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!


Dear CCP Rices.

Now matars have the best turret ships.
Soon matars will have the best missile ship.
Finally, make the last step - give to matars the best droneboat, and you can just remove the remaining races from the game.



Matari turret " dominance" has only some presence on the cruiser sized ships. And since the tiercide that advantage has been massively nerfed, only blind people cannot see it. The number of ships in killmails cannot be used as sole indicator of the performacne of a ship, but mostly of how the metagame accept certain roles.

There is a lot of people that keep repeating the fake "minmatar have the best ships" sentence. They have the best ships on a few selected areas. What happens is those were the areas that most people focus on (BC and cruisers).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"