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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#241 - 2013-04-09 22:08:18 UTC
Still waiting for Tempest to recieve fall off bonuses for guns...

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Just Lilly
#242 - 2013-04-09 22:12:44 UTC
Ships look great, the new phoon for sure.

I do not like the nerf to it's dronebay though, but going for the missile platform
rather then "gunnery" is an interesting twist.

Looking good though Cool
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Nytak
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2013-04-09 23:12:25 UTC
I'm not too hot about the missile boats personally, in any level of Minmatar ships.

My opposition comes more from a new player prospective when first jumping into things like battle-cruisers and battleships and trying to run missions, and the fact that the least expensive bs/bc hulls in a race known for projectile turrets are now missile boats.

Generally, Minmatar are known for their guns, so most players focusing on Minmatar ships early on tend to focus on guns naturally. Missiles become a secondary mission running weapon to fill slots used by neuts/nos in pvp fits, at least that's how I always used them. For PVP it's guns and nos/neut, PVE it's guns and a couple missile launchers for some extra dps.

Now the least expensive hulls for battle-cruisers and battleships are dedicated missile boats. So newer players running missions, when they finally get to running level 3s or 4s are stuck with waiting and training up missiles to be effective, grinding more ISK at the lower mission tier to get the second most expensive hull, or getting the cheapest you can afford and hoping your missile skills cut it. The battle-cruisers aren't as bad, but now that we are talking battleships, It's a fair amount of mission running to cover the extra 60-100 million for a Tempest or Maelstrom over the going price of a Typhoon if you have to do level 3s for it. For people who like to run missions to be self-sufficient, running lvl4s as quick as possible is generally a high priority, this adds an extra financial barrier.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#244 - 2013-04-09 23:27:21 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

We're going to post a few tweaks tomorrow based on feedback from all the threads, minmatar included.

To answer a couple things though -

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)



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PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#245 - 2013-04-10 00:28:51 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

We're going to post a few tweaks tomorrow based on feedback from all the threads, minmatar included.

To answer a couple things though -

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)

Well, the changes to the tempest are better. At least you guys are listening. Big smile

As to the comparison of the phoon and the raven, plate and trimark the typhoon and that speed advantage goes away real fast. And then you get an armor raven. The new phoon will have 5 med slots (as opposed to the new ravens 7). 5 Med slots does not for a good shield tank make imo (especially with prop mod).

Now you could nano fit it, giving you a good nano torp boat, whereas previously you had your choice of good nano projectile/torp/neut boat depending on how it was fit. So choice was fundamentally lost, and nothing gained. That is, by definition, a nerf.

I suppose it really comes down to how the torp/cruise rebalance works out. Anyway, at least you guys are listening.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#246 - 2013-04-10 03:06:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I just want to open by agreeing with what so many others have said:

Maelstrom - Combat
Tempest - Attack
Typhoon - Disruption via Paint and/or Web


With that out of the way.. when split weapon platforms were first devised, the idea was based around "versatility", if I understand correctly. You could fit guns or you could fit missiles and you had iffy DPS but tons of utility highs or you could fit both guns and missiles and have great DPS but few or no utility highs. You could, in extreme cases, even pick whether to shield or armor tank and do either one equally well. This is by no means a bad idea.

What I feel is a bad idea is fixing the "split weapon problem" by picking one weapon system and completely removing the other. Shouldn't there be a way of assigning weapon hardpoints and bonuses to go with them that will allow you to get good results whether you choose to fit a full rack of guns or a full rack of missiles or (if you're into it) a split rack of both? Something like this would allow for keeping the versatility everyone loves in Minmatar ships but also make them easier to use, which seems to be what CCP is aiming for.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#247 - 2013-04-10 04:02:50 UTC
-1 to changes to Phoon

I don't agree with converting all BS into single-role, single-weapon, single-fit ships. The current Phoon is fun to fly because it can be fit in various ways, making it an unpredictable opponent. Fighting an experienced player in a Phoon is always a challenge, 'cause you never know what the heck he/she is going to shoot at you.

With smaller ships, there is a reasonable argument for fitting them into roles. With the larger ships, this is not so reasonable. At least a few of the larger ships should retain a multi-role and split weapon capability.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2013-04-10 04:46:06 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.


Compare Typhoon and Raven.
Both have 6 launchers. Both have RoF bonus. Nothing good can be said about the Raven then with it's useless missile velocity bonus. On the other hand, Typhoon is getting extremelly strong explosion velocity bonus + all the advantages of being Minamatar (best speed, MWD speed, align time etc). So far you are making Typhoon plainly better than Raven, it's not even a choice.
Burning Chrome
State War Academy
Caldari State
#249 - 2013-04-10 04:57:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. )


Thanks for the response to us CCP Rise.

I expect the speed and mass advantages that have been given to the Typhoon will be negated straight away by the armor plates that will be fitted. Even with 5 mids I don't think shield tanking wouldn't work for small gang stuff so it will be weighed down by armor rigs and plates. In 0.0 with bubbles it may be a whole different story.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2013-04-10 06:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

We're going to post a few tweaks tomorrow based on feedback from all the threads, minmatar included.

To answer a couple things though -

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)


Glad to hear it. I think you shouldn't necessarily pigeon hole all the ships into attack, combat etc just because someone came up with those terms.

Someone on FHC suggested changing the pests bonuses to 10% damage/lvl and 5% falloff/lvl. This is a good option imo, as after the TE nerf, this will help considerably with keeping the tempests flavour.

I also feel it needs a speed boost, I don't think it should be more agile than say a mega, but it definitely should be faster, so if you stuff up initially, a blaster boat can catch you, but your outright running away speed should be more.

The slot layout on the pest is mostly good, I definitely wouldn't remove a low, 6 is the minimum for an armour tank or the min to fit two nanos, dc, TE and two gyros. The utility highs are it's secret to keeping tacklers off, though I wouldn't be averse to a high going to a mid, as this would let you fit a web for the same.

Let's not forget that in shield form it has the ehp of a drake, so it should get some significant advantages in speed, damage projection and versatility. It has less damage than a tornado, less falloff and is way slower and less agile.

There's also nothing to stop you keeping the Phoon a split weapons ship, as long as you give full bonuses to both (so say 5% torp damage&radius/lvl as well as 5%lvl damage and Rof to projectiles). This gives people like me the option of using the ship when we have no missile skills because we trained for minmatar, not caldari. Give it the same number of launcher and gun hard points, this is where the minmatar versatility comes in.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#251 - 2013-04-10 07:50:28 UTC
Akturous wrote:

Someone on FHC suggested changing the pests bonuses to 10% damage/lvl and 5% falloff/lvl. This is a good option imo, as after the TE nerf, this will help considerably with keeping the tempests flavour.


That would make it a better alpha boat than the current Maelstrom, both in terms of alpha and in terms of range. I don't think that's a good idea at all, particularly not in conjunction with even greater mobility. It looks like trying to have your cake and eat it, to create a BS that excels in every situation.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2013-04-10 08:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
Currently it excels at none, so I think it needs some help. I'd be even happier with a 10% ROF bonus/lvl, if I want mobile arty I use nado and the pest could do with the extra dps, would that satisfy you?

I'm not asking for a dramiel with 800s here, but I think on the latest agility list for the changes it is something like 2 from the bottom? The speed department it's around 4th, which isn't good enough for a ship with little tank.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#253 - 2013-04-10 08:26:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I agree with the notion of giving the phoon a proper set of dual weapon bonuses to let it be useful with either a full rack of torps or a full rack of projectiles. Even the "save the phoon" people should be quite happy with that.

I also agree with giving it a painter/web bonus.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#254 - 2013-04-10 09:34:06 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Updated OP to reflect changes we've made based on your feedback.

Attack Tempest is now online, and Typhoon has its turrets back - both of them have signature lowered.

@ccp_rise
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#255 - 2013-04-10 09:37:46 UTC
@CCP Rise

How come the tempest wont be getting a fall off bonus? :(

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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#256 - 2013-04-10 09:40:56 UTC
that phoons sig rad is insane you realize its almost the same size as a brutix don't you!!!!!

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#257 - 2013-04-10 09:42:04 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect changes we've made based on your feedback.

Attack Tempest is now online, and Typhoon has its launchers back - both of them have signature lowered.


By launchers you mean turrets I think.
MainDrain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#258 - 2013-04-10 09:49:56 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


UPDATE: Based on feedback we are lowering the Typhoon's signature radius a bit, and also giving back its launchers (though they will not be bonused) to offer some more flexibility.


Should this be giving back its turrets?
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#259 - 2013-04-10 09:51:50 UTC
Can I get all the launchers on the Typhoon mounted in ist "mouth" so it spits torpedoes of death? :D Always had to think of that planet killer from the Star Trek Original Series. :D

More serious: I never liked the split bonus on the Typhoon, so having a clear orientation is nice (especially considering it's Overall look and design just scream missile boat to me).

@TrouserDeagle: That "update" confused me as well at first, but obviously they had the old launcher number wrong (listed as 4 or so).

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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#260 - 2013-04-10 09:54:15 UTC
Could you please sort out the phoons mass please it looks like a typo to me...
The tempest still looks weak to me i think it would be served better being a heavy armour tanker

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high