Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Agreed. I'm really getting tired of seeing Amarr ships that are better with other race's guns on them, and such. The purpose for Amarr having huge caps and tank is that we need those since we have guns and reps to run. Other races have lower cap drain on guns, and the instant tank of shield rep. The AAR seems to be a slight help, but it's still fairly we-tard-ed [seriously, the forum filters are going too far these days] that they are basically making it so we just all run around with blasters and rails, ignoring our racial flavors because they suck. And shield Oracles, Geddons, etc are an abomination that should be shot and buried.

also on a side note, he says he wants the new armageddon to be like the dragoon... the dragoon is argueably the worst of all the new destroyers, I haven't seen one flown since they first came out, while the other see lots of use.

If people want a strong drone boat with the option for neuts, people default to the dominix... why should the amarr have a ship does also does the same thing?

Hey Rise...weird calling you that man!

Hope to catch up with you at FF.

Here's my 2 pence to this discussion so far.

Armageddon-

I just don't see this. With one foul swoop this change to Neut Range bonus kills the use of the Curse dramatically; it makes Bhaalgorns significantly less effective from a role which is built into the core of all Blood Raider ships and really moves the BS paradigm into a role which isnt befit of their class as a whole.

I just can't buy into this thought process of BS extending the platform of electronic and energy warfare.

In terms of a training path, the Ewar ships have a specific line heading from frigates and cruisers into T2 and then the BS section is very sporadic naturally because of how difficult it would be to balance.

A sensor damp bonused Domi for example whilst viable, is unlikely to see a great deal of use in the same vein that a Web ranged Typhoon is likely to break the whole class of BS in the opposite direction.

Whilst ECM has a way to go to find a place where it doesnt force multiply quite so hard, I feel that the Cruiser Platform is a great strike of Ewar strength against a distinct lack of ehp in the current era of Eve.

We also then have the issue that with BC's just having a well thought out facelift, that the class has been missed entirely in providing a stepping stone of an Ewar/En.war platform. (arguably the Prophecy fits a same role as the new Geddon but it doesn't carry specific bonii towards Energy Warfare)

My personal feeling on this is that Ewar should be taken out of the BS class completely. Most BS carry utility highs and mids to best use ewar on a weaker scale and the Faction BS provide notable and desirable increases in each of the Ewar categories.

The Geddon seems the ideal platform to move the resist bonus from the Abaddon too and give it the drone bonus to provide a platform to evolve from the Arbitrator/Prophecy ship line.

The Abaddon can then move into the role of the Omen/Harbinger and gain Cap Use and Damage/RoF output. Yes it loses that gorgeous age old tank but it gains the role of the all out DPS ship for the Amarr BS line.

This I feel could be mirrored across to Caldari with the Rokh evolving into the quintessential sniper vessel with the bonus line similar to the Naga whilst the Scorpion becomes a stepping stone from the Ferox (Shield Resist and Hybrid Optimal)


Essential Summary:

- Ewar/Energy Warfare on T1 BS should be phased out
- Geddon to become stepping stone of Arbitrator/Prophecy Ship Line
- Abaddon to become Omen/Harbinger stepping stone
- Scorpion to become Moa/Ferox Line
- Rokh to become in line with the Naga (Damage/Optimal Range)

Your missing that with the loss (again, not saying to put them back on) of the cap/turret reduction hull boosts, these ships need more attention given to their cap then is currently proposed.

Fairly put. Now comes the inevitable counter points, which are not intended to bust your chops, but to point out relevant facts.

Drone FOCUS has always been an Amarrian trait, as evidenced by the ship lines dedicated to using them as a primary weapons system (such as the Arbitrator, Pilgrim, Curse, and the odd ship like our little EW frigate)... as well as other ships that had very large drone bays compared to many of their counter parts (such as the Armageddon itself). The Amarr have always had a strong connection with drone use.

I'm glad we agree on the Khanid designs being relevant for the most part, but keep in mind that previously they were limited to the Tier 2 Frigate, T2 cruiser, and T2 BC lines. I can seen the motivation for CCP to offer ships in the T1 lines that offer a stepping stone of relevant skills to those already existing T2 hulls (including at least something available in the BS class to step up into).

As for unbonused laser/missile slots again this is nothing new (Arbitrator, Pilgrim, Curse) and has been part (albiet a niche part)of the Amarrian philosophy.

As for the 1% nerf to the Abaddons resistance bonus, I don't think that was a particularly easy decision (even if it was a miniscule change). CCP has had it ground into them that a resistance bonus is far more effective (especially in the case of remote repping) than a repair amount bonus. This is simply one very small step in bringing balance to that without making them the same (or doing away with repair amount bonuses completely). I doubt that we will see true balance until repair amount bonuses also apply to the amount of rep received from remote repping but there could very well be technical difficulties with doing that. Point being, there was a very valid reason for that nerf, and the kept it as small as possible.

To sum up, if you look back at the history of and current Amarr ship lines there is a strong justification for a ship like the proposed Armageddon (or something along those general lines) to be included. It's just a bit shocking to see such an iconic ship changed so radically. I can understand that concern, but I feel the benefits outweigh the initial shock... as long as the ship doesn't end up overpowered or overshadowing other ships like the Dominix.

I completely failed to point this out in my response to him, thanks. I focused on the point that CCP adjusted rats a while back to reduce their tanking capability when being neuted.

Ahh, I'd missed that, good point :)

I'm sorry to say but you guys getting into one on one quote-arguments is distracting the focus of this thread.


Regardless of what you think the optimal solution should be, I think that most people can agree that the current posted changes should be withdrawn and looked at again as they are doing with the proposed Gallente ones.

I simply cannot see these changes succeeding on TQ. They provide solutions to problems no-one had, and address none of the real problems Amarr pilots were running into.

The solution could have been as simple as leaving all the current boni, and just tweaking the CPU and PWG on the Apoc and Geddon.

Since part of this discussion has to do with NOS/Neut effectiveness, and a NOS buff has been hinted at, I want to take a moment and inject this here.

For the NOS buff could you please consider basing them on the actual amount of cap POINTS their enemy has (relative to their own) as opposed to the PERCENTAGE difference?

This would make them primarily effective for smaller ships vs larger ships, while neuts remain most effective being used by large ships against smaller ships.

In other words, currently if a frigate is at 10% cap and his BS target is at 10% he gets nothing from his NOS.

But if it was based on the raw amount of capacitor points left in the capacitor (say in this case to use purely fictional numbers with both ships at 10% cap left the frigate has 100 cap points left and the BS has 1000 cap points left) the ship with the smaller raw amount of cap will find the NOS highly effective.

In essence it becomes a great tool for smaller ships to run their equipment using a larger ships capacitor, but makes the NOS virtually useles for larger ships to use on smaller ones... thus Nuets retain their full functionality... remaining the weapon of choice for peeling off pesky tacklers.

This might also open up the door for somewhat harsher penalties for trying to use Neuts against ships with Cap Batteries, while a NOS using boat would love to drain that extra cap for their own purposes.

Perhaps some sort of percentage system based on both ships comparative cap, in other words?