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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Minmatar

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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#201 - 2013-04-09 16:14:52 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

We're going to post a few tweaks tomorrow based on feedback from all the threads, minmatar included.

To answer a couple things though -

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)


Why not just make the Typhoon a combat BS?
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#202 - 2013-04-09 16:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranamar
CCP Rise wrote:
I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

-snip-

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)


I think the complaint to do with the Typhoon and Raven is basically the same as the one people have with the Dominix and the Armageddon. In short it's, "Why would I ever fly a Raven now?" The Typhoon is faster and has better damage application, with its explosion radius bonus. Additionally, you really don't need extra range on cruise missiles, and torpedoes desperately need the reduced explosion radius to get anywhere near their paper DPS.

If I go digging for excuses to fly a Raven, there's ... the fact that it might actually be able to fit tank and tackle together now ... and the fact that faster torpedoes will be harder to run away from. Cruises probably won't gain a whole lot out of the speed bonus, after all, and torpedoes already reach near the end of long point range. Besides, if you're actually going to do full damage the target needs to be webbed and painted anyway.

For me personally, the last time I used a Raven was when I was running L4 missions, and the new Typhoon is superior to that unless torpedoes become a viable PvE weapon. It just feels like, now, when it's finally getting a boost, it also got obsoleted at the same time by that Minmatar Flexibility.

Edit: On further thought, maybe improving battleship missile weapons will make both of these ships worth flying. It's something to keep in mind for that if you're happy with the differences between the two ships. The Raven is about as iconic as it gets for Caldari missile ships, and its bonuses are in a tradition which ought to be fine. It just feels overshadowed by relatively unconventional bonuses that have shown up more recently.
Alek Row
Silent Step
#203 - 2013-04-09 16:16:54 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys
(...) having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category (...)


Thank you.
Matuno Tailor
Your Friendly Neighbourhood Corp
#204 - 2013-04-09 16:23:46 UTC
Minmatar and Amarr are opposed as Gallente and Caldari are oppose. Minmatar and Gallente are ally, I think the same is true for Caldari and Amarr. Kinda. For weapon, Gallente and Amarr have drones, Minmatar and Caldari have missile. So their is some sort of mirror relation.
Then you look at the scorpion. An anomaly, E-War BS. Hey, look at the typhoon. An utility BS. Maybe it would be more of a typhoon if it evolve into a E-War BS rather than a missile boat.

Just a though.
Sante Ixnay
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2013-04-09 16:28:20 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.


Thank you for this. Honestly I didn't think yall would be flexible about changing your plan here, and I'm happy to find out I was mistaken.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#206 - 2013-04-09 16:36:20 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

We're going to post a few tweaks tomorrow based on feedback from all the threads, minmatar included.

To answer a couple things though -

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)


Two attack battleships, one missile and one gun based does make me feel better, didn't feel right to leave projectiles out of a whole subclass. And if the Tempest can hang with the other attack battleships when it is all said and done then I would love to dust off my old hulls, and bring them back to life.

Thank you.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#207 - 2013-04-09 16:50:04 UTC
Thank you CCP Rise.

The Typhoon being compared with the Raven has to do with the fact that the Raven is super fat shield tanker while the Typhoon is a super fast armor tanker.

I feel like they're quite close to each other right now.

Thank you for the Tempest. I think that some changes to the slot layout would immensely help the Tempest toward shield tanking. So that we have one Armor Attack BS (Typhoon) and one Shield Attack BS (Tempest).
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2013-04-09 16:52:12 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

We're going to post a few tweaks tomorrow based on feedback from all the threads, minmatar included.

To answer a couple things though -

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)


Hurrah! Nice to be listened to isn't it people?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#209 - 2013-04-09 16:56:07 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:

Hurrah! Nice to be listened to isn't it people?


Yeah, I'm super happy with two attack BS's :)
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#210 - 2013-04-09 16:59:18 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:

Hurrah! Nice to be listened to isn't it people?


Yeah, I'm super happy with two attack BS's :)


The Tempest is one of my favourite ships. I like if for it's relative agility and speed, I would hate to have seen it ruined.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#211 - 2013-04-09 17:00:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Krell Kroenen
SMT008 wrote:

Thank you for the Tempest. I think that some changes to the slot layout would immensely help the Tempest toward shield tanking. So that we have one Armor Attack BS (Typhoon) and one Shield Attack BS (Tempest).


The only problem I have with that is then there is no armor tanking projectile battleship for Matar :( Don't kill my armor gun boat option please.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#212 - 2013-04-09 17:02:34 UTC
Definitely should keep at least on of the minmatar ships with the ability to fit dual tanks. Keeping the Tempest with the option to fit an armour or shield tank is pretty essential in my opinion.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#213 - 2013-04-09 17:17:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

We're going to post a few tweaks tomorrow based on feedback from all the threads, minmatar included.

To answer a couple things though -

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)


I would think the megathron should have the best mobility considering it has half the range of the phoon and gallente are generally more agile throughout the classes

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#214 - 2013-04-09 17:27:45 UTC
Alek Row wrote:
Krell Kroenen wrote:
I fear that racial traits are being scrubbed away in the name of balancing.


Yep, it seems that the lack of replies is "normal" for a thread with so few posts when compared to others.
(It also leads to concerns in how they are interpreting their so many ship statistics).

But that exact issue as been discusses in LOT'S of threads, and there are ZERO ccp responses about those concerns.
This Typhoon was expected to be honest, just look at the past Cyclone.

The Tempest is 'in line' with what they are doing to the Minmatar race traits lately.
The 10 years "survivor"... I think you finally killed it, gratz.

I have no idea how people can say things like this when the ship ONLY got buffs, and quite a lot of them.

I swear, some people...

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Miss Mass
Doomheim
#215 - 2013-04-09 17:37:46 UTC
Ranamar wrote:
Additionally, you really don't need extra range on cruise missiles, and torpedoes desperately need the reduced explosion radius to get anywhere near their paper DPS.


The Phoon's proposed new bonus is to explosion velocity, not explosion radius. As someone pointed out earlier, since torps are a short range weapon, targets are often in web range anyway so the explosion velocity bonus isn't as meaningful for torps as it is for cruise missiles.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#216 - 2013-04-09 17:49:18 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

We're going to post a few tweaks tomorrow based on feedback from all the threads, minmatar included.

To answer a couple things though -

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)


see what you said there? the raven is useless and the typhoon got everything on its side? why the hell would anyone even waste time on a ******* raven?
fukier
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2013-04-09 17:51:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.



not true at all.

this is the old ratting/pvp setup my buddy used

6 tech II cruise 2 heavy neuts

100 mn mwd
1 long range point
1 scram
1 webber
1 sensor booster
1 eccm

dcu II
1600
2 eanm
medium armor rep II

the trick was to let the ship tackle you in a belt and then get you down to 30% shields... at this point he think you are dead.. and then you approach and put on the tackle and full nuets...
I think he killed many many vegabonds this way...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2013-04-09 17:54:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Pesadel0
Ager Agemo wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

We're going to post a few tweaks tomorrow based on feedback from all the threads, minmatar included.

To answer a couple things though -

I think the comparison between the raven and the typhoon is kind of surprising. Both ships will now be able to field 6 missile launchers, so they have that in common, but thats really where it stops. The typhoon is the fastest of all the battleships by a substantial margin. It has the fastest align time and fastest mwd speed of anything available. This strikes me as very 'minmatar'. Along with that, while its losing some of the extreme versatility it had before, it still supplies quite a few options both offensively and defensively, while the Raven is quite clearly a dedicated shield ship.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Both ships will still offer flexibility in the way they are used that is fairly unique to minmatar.

Check back for tweaks in the next couple days and keep the feedback coming =)


see what you said there? the raven is useless and the typhoon got everything on its side? why the hell would anyone even waste time on a ******* raven?


so destroying the versatility of the thyphoon and making it a better armour tanking is better raven because?Regarding the tempest why not give it another turret slot , taking it a med or lows?
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#219 - 2013-04-09 18:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Shrrrg wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
seems odd that the phoon has 7 lows but is a shield tanker..... i would suggest you minus 500 shield add 1300 armour and reduce its mass down to about 95,500,000kg.

And do a similar mass on the mega say 94,000,000kg
and Apoc to about 96,500,000kg and raven about the same

what? since when is the phoon a shield tanker? It can at the moment be tanked on shield and armour and in the future both tankvariants will be possible.

That said I dont like the new Phoon. Yes it will still be a good ship maybe even better than before but it loses a lot of that "swiss army knife" feeling. At the moment a phoon can be either tanked on shield(not very good but it can work) or on armour. It can either use torps or autocannons as main weapons and can use the other as support or can use the rest highslots to either use neuts or remote rep.

After those changes this variability isnt given anymore.

Well, I do have some things to say about this. While I definitely think the Phoon needs its dronebay back, you are wrong on a couple points.

With a 5th midslot it will be more viable than ever for shield tanking (read: it will be viable afterwards; right now it's really awful and I have no idea what makes Jonas think it is in any way a shield ship), and while you CAN fit it to use autocannons instead of torpedoes, it's a terrible idea and it sucks. It's just bad, they hardly do any damage: the only reason you MIGHT consider that to be viable is because it's supported by the extra DPS of an entire flight of drones.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#220 - 2013-04-09 18:11:22 UTC
Miss Mass wrote:
Ranamar wrote:
Additionally, you really don't need extra range on cruise missiles, and torpedoes desperately need the reduced explosion radius to get anywhere near their paper DPS.


The Phoon's proposed new bonus is to explosion velocity, not explosion radius. As someone pointed out earlier, since torps are a short range weapon, targets are often in web range anyway so the explosion velocity bonus isn't as meaningful for torps as it is for cruise missiles.


Thanks for the correction... that is somewhat worse because, as you said, you're almost certainly going to want them webbed anyway, so you might actually run into the explosion radius damage rail.

That said, I generally figure that explosion radius and explosion velocity are still often pretty fungible with each other, and an armor Typhoon has enough mid slots it seems like it could easily fit a target painter along with tackle. (Although I'm half expecting you to inform me that I have no idea how to fit armor ships and they all need two cap boosters...) Besides, I'm sure you're going to be tossing torps at MWDing cruisers and battlecruisers *sometime* if you're out roaming around in a fast battleship.