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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Vivien Sureflight
The Artists
#421 - 2013-04-09 15:09:57 UTC
... And with that, the final nail was hammered into the coffin of the Dominix. May it rest in peace.

Seriously, these proposed changes will make the Dominix useless outside of specialized sniper fleets (where it will already be outclassed by gun ships like the, ahem, Apoc). The loss of the Domi's damage bonus means that it's hitting and tanking the same amount as the Geddon, but the Geddon has more utility highs with which to use its 40km neuts. Oh yeah, did you notice that? The Geddon can't be kited. Aside from the Apoc, it's the only BS for which this is true.

The Geddon also gets substantially more PG than does the Domi, and is able to fit launchers (though I'm not sure why you would want to). The only advantages the Domi has over the Geddon is the tracking bonus (which we've been over) and its extra mid, which, while it offers a little utility, in no way makes up for its astounding lack of anything worthwhile.

If you want to turn the Geddon into a drone boat, fine. I agree it needs a niche. But don't kill the Dominix in the process. It's fine how it is. Leave the damned thing alone.

Please.

Phee Phi PhoPhum
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#422 - 2013-04-09 15:24:46 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!

Armageddon:

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 7L(-1); 5 turrets(-2) , 5 launchers(+5)



For -------'s sake , put the missile launchers down!

CCP has already ruined the Bellicose and Cyclone Sad - please don't do it to the Amarr ships as well. This is simply awful.

Not every ship needs missiles! If you want missiles, start training Caladari.
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#423 - 2013-04-09 15:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: PavlikX
After analyzing situation i want to say few opinions.
First of all i can not understand the situation - CCP bring attack BCs. They have possibilties to fit 8 large guns. Meantime only few BSs have the same option. It is very strange. Instead of great BS buff CCP nerfs few ships (abaddon for example). I can not understand that. There is nothing wrong with ABC, but they must not have more guns than BSs.
Back to the Amarr vessels
Many people posts here about capasitor usage of lasers. Compleetly agree. Cap capasity must be increased, or all lasers must have lowerr usage of the capasitor. Hardly cap booster is a solution here - cargo bay is not endless.
Hull HP increase? Hm...
Abaddon.
Well. What for nerf needed? Leave it as it was. And add capasitor (or recharge rate)
Apocalypse
CCP, you want to kill BS, wich was very effective even in low sklled hand of new players. You gave it standart capasitor problemm. And for what? For what this tracking needed? It's sniper ship. He will kill enemy from long distance.
Drone decreasing also unneeded. Tracking much more needed to the ships like Abaddon for close range engagements. If you will do so you will really nerf that ship.
Leave it as it was. Or if changes so needed replace useless tracking bonus with damage bonus with increasing of capasitor capasity/recharge rate
Armageddon
Few time ago i've started thread about remake armageddon to the drone boat. I was ataacked by many players, so in general i am satisfyed, except neut bonus. It will be much better to the combat BS to have armor resist bonus 5% per level. Leave neut bonuses to the Bloodraider p
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#424 - 2013-04-09 15:26:18 UTC
Vivien Sureflight wrote:
... And with that, the final nail was hammered into the coffin of the Dominix. May it rest in peace.

Seriously, these proposed changes will make the Dominix useless outside of specialized sniper fleets (where it will already be outclassed by gun ships like the, ahem, Apoc). The loss of the Domi's damage bonus means that it's hitting and tanking the same amount as the Geddon, but the Geddon has more utility highs with which to use its 40km neuts. Oh yeah, did you notice that? The Geddon can't be kited. Aside from the Apoc, it's the only BS for which this is true.

The Geddon also gets substantially more PG than does the Domi, and is able to fit launchers (though I'm not sure why you would want to). The only advantages the Domi has over the Geddon is the tracking bonus (which we've been over) and its extra mid, which, while it offers a little utility, in no way makes up for its astounding lack of anything worthwhile.

If you want to turn the Geddon into a drone boat, fine. I agree it needs a niche. But don't kill the Dominix in the process. It's fine how it is. Leave the damned thing alone.

Please.


You'd probably have better luck posting comments about fixing the Domi on the Gallente thread, CCP Rise to all appearances isn't following the Amarr one.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#425 - 2013-04-09 15:29:03 UTC
yes i am feeling like amarr is turning into a 3 weapon system race and with ASB's and projectiles not using cap the amount of ships that are capless weapons is exceedingly high and then gallente have the armour repping ships and blasters that eat cap like its going out of season ..... unbalanced anyone?
missiles should stick to the khanid line only as that is the point of their school is it not?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#426 - 2013-04-09 15:31:08 UTC
Well, except khanid T2 ships there are no ships in Amarr fleet with missile bonuses (except Purifier)
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#427 - 2013-04-09 15:32:34 UTC
PavlikX wrote:
Well, except khanid T2 ships there are no ships in Amarr fleet with missile bonuses (except Purifier)


Prophecy... dragoon...

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#428 - 2013-04-09 15:33:20 UTC
No. i mean bonuses from the skills, not the possibity to fit it
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#429 - 2013-04-09 15:52:08 UTC
PavlikX wrote:
No. i mean bonuses from the skills, not the possibity to fit it


well people only put laser on a ship if its bonused for it so in effect those 2 are missile ships thats how people fit them

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#430 - 2013-04-09 16:02:45 UTC
They give options to fit - any type of weapon systems. Without bonuses. It is not the same as Khanid ships
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#431 - 2013-04-09 16:13:16 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
God damn the amount of stupidity in this thread.

The Armageddon gets a neut RANGE bonus, while the Bhaalgorn has a neut efficiency bonus (ie The Armageddon neut from far away, the Bhaalgorn neut harder). WH dwellers will still use Bhaalgorns, and except for those guys, there aren't much use for Bhaalgorns in K-space anyway.

[...]

So what's wrong ?

Yes, the Curse gets a hit. We know that T2 cruisers are bad and will be rebalanced after Odyssey.
[...]

The cap usage reduction bonus isn't a bonus, it's actually a "Here, you can use your guns at the expense of one useful bonus !". Which makes cap usage reduction a burden for Amarrian ships. You got a useful bonus this time, ain't that great ?

All in all, even if some things still need to be fixed (Beams and cap usage, mostly), those changes are alright.

Don't be afraid of having to change your setups, be happy that you have new possibilities to look forward to !


I agree with all of what you said, but highlighted a few points I particularly agree with. As a WH dweller myself I look forward to practicing awesome neuting power with this new Geddon and definitely can see its role in the smaller gangs you find in wspace. The Curse will get less used, yeah, but still remains quite mobile and viable when mixed in with AHAC gangs. And I totally agree with the cap use reduction bonuses; Amarr is a cap-intensive race to fly and quite honestly if you're using lasers Controlled Bursts and cap supports skill should be at IV or preferably V. Ofc I will probably be fitting missiles to my Geddon, since I like the T2 missile-using Amarr ships that have heavy armor.

I just can't wait for new EFT files to be released so I can start theory-crafting!

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
Dentt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#432 - 2013-04-09 16:18:24 UTC
PLEEEEEEEEEEEEASE reconsider those god awful geddon changes! We already have a long range neuting BS, why make another?

As for the whole missile argument I've gotta agree with what most have said, until you FIX the BS size missile systems what is the point in basing on ship on using them? Please dont push this geddon change in!
Shani Mukantagara
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
#433 - 2013-04-09 16:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Shani Mukantagara
Grant Smith wrote:
As perhaps a bitter older player, whos arguably stuck in their ways after nine years of playing, I do completely agree with some of the other posts with regards to destroying the very nature of eve. It may be far too late to recover, but the tier system was perfect, its what we've all grown up with and loved.

Getting back to the core of eve, gallente were the primary drone race, caldari were all about missiles that actually worked and shields that served their purpose (because the long lost and forgotten nosferatus actually worked properly), the amarr were all about decent range compensated with reasonable dps and the apoc had the tank of a king, while the minmatar boasted a decent all round versatility that was rewarded by putting the time into training. What was wrong with this?

Get back to Exodus standards, where there was a distinct frigate < cruiser < bc < bs hierarchy.

Neuting geddons? Whats the point in the bhaalgorn? at 1/10th the price, noone will fly bhallgorns and instead now field 10 geddons instead, resulting in a collapse of logistical support across the board.

Change is good in most cases, but this seemingly over-complicated change in ships is just baffling and unneeded. Battleships work fine the way they are. Yes there is the odd anomaly, that being the baddon thats over powered (easy fix, remove some dps to ive the geddon an advantage) and the maelstrom too to give room for the pest and phoon. gallente and caldari are fine.

Applying recon style bonuses to battleships is just senseless, and should be kept for solely for the recon ships. CCP is trying to hard to balance all within Eve and it just doesn't happen that way.

The massive increase in frigate usage over the last year has showed just how the changes have affected the game, the lesson needs to be learnt. its as simple as this:

Frigate < Cruiser < Battlecruiser < Battleship < etc = hierarchy as it should be with out restriction and bulls**t complications

hierarchy as it should be with out restriction and bulls**t complications = Customizable unbalanced play style

Customizable unbalanced play style = Adventure

Adventure = Eve

Eve = fun.

Fun = Happy custom base.

And after all, aren't CCP banging on about adventure with the release of the June expansion Odyssey?


Peace.



I agree....

I do not understand why they have to mess around with the core battleship, why not introduce a Tech 2 Battle ship that have pre defined roles like they are trying to do with the Armageddon.

Why not make the Blackops more effective and give the Redeemer this neut bonus ? give it a use in a fleet battle a covert Neuting wing..

A officer neut Redeemer with an officer webbing bhaalgorn would be an interesting core for a fleet.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#434 - 2013-04-09 16:37:55 UTC
Dentt wrote:
PLEEEEEEEEEEEEASE reconsider those god awful geddon changes! We already have a long range neuting BS, why make another?

As for the whole missile argument I've gotta agree with what most have said, until you FIX the BS size missile systems what is the point in basing on ship on using them? Please dont push this geddon change in!


First, what is the long-range neuting BS ?

Second, I'm pretty sure I saw turret slots too on this Armageddon. What's forcing you to fit missile launchers ?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#435 - 2013-04-09 16:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Are the faction versions of these battleships also going to have these changes ?]


Quote:
The Faction ships are drawn from a seperate table - their values are going to be untouched for the time being.



Quote:
Then they are not balancing anything, they are just making the tech 1 versions overpowered compared to the faction versions.
Which is wrong, since a faction ship should be better ( always has been ) then a normal version.

They are making the same mistake they made with the cruiser logistics.

Better in some ways, yes, but they are not simply going to be upgraded versions of the T1 version.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#436 - 2013-04-09 16:55:17 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
First, what is the long-range neuting BS ?

Second, I'm pretty sure I saw turret slots too on this Armageddon. What's forcing you to fit missile launchers ?



I think the poor person is getting the Bhaalgorn's neut/nos increase confused with range - but the problem still stands; you cannot have a ship that is 1/10th the price of the Bhaalgorn do its job better.

The second point is that it is going to be offered a split weapons system, with no bonuses to either. Fitting Lasers would be pointless, as you'll eat the cap too fast, the launchers are nigh on worthless at battleship size, hybrids are too weak/so in your face its criminal and then you have projectile weapons - which does not fit the design philosophy of the Armageddon

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Lillith Sakata
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#437 - 2013-04-09 17:04:07 UTC
Novacrow wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
I'd still say the capacitors for both the laser ships is on the weak side. Cap is a real problem for the abbaddon and I expect the Apoc to suffer as badly.

The neut bonus to the Geddon is too much. This is an ewar bonus which is way too powerful for a non-faction battleship which should be packing a bit more dps not being able to cripple anything and everything that floats within neut range (all those changes you've made to BC, cruisers, destroyers and frigs will be pointless with these on the field). Utter madness if you follow this through.


Why not an ewar bship? The caldari have one, and they are the paradigm of shield tankers. Amarr are the paradigm of armor tankers. It makes sense...


BECAUSE WE"RE AMARRIANS. We don't need no stupid Caldari idiocy. Give me lasers, a good brick to stick em on, and a dirty Minmater slave to shoot at.

Amarr Victor.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#438 - 2013-04-09 17:05:32 UTC
Let the Gallente have their drones.
Let the Caldari have their missiles.

I have my faith in Plates and Lasers.



and Ranger 1, the quotes should be the other way around Big smile

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Mr Hyde113
#439 - 2013-04-09 17:06:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Hyde113
I think the simple fact that there is no longer an Amarr battleship with 8 low slots is indication enough that CCP Rise has made a serious mistake with the Amarr changes. Evil

We do not need a T1 BS size continuation of the Dragoon/Arbitrator/Propephecy. The old Geddon had 125 Drone Bandwidth which was enough to reward Amarr players for training a secondard weapons system. Now, there is no Amarr Battleship that can provide High Laser damage while remaining manageable on the capacitor front.
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#440 - 2013-04-09 17:07:25 UTC
Arline Kley wrote:
SMT008 wrote:
First, what is the long-range neuting BS ?

Second, I'm pretty sure I saw turret slots too on this Armageddon. What's forcing you to fit missile launchers ?



I think the poor person is getting the Bhaalgorn's neut/nos increase confused with range - but the problem still stands; you cannot have a ship that is 1/10th the price of the Bhaalgorn do its job better.

The second point is that it is going to be offered a split weapons system, with no bonuses to either. Fitting Lasers would be pointless, as you'll eat the cap too fast, the launchers are nigh on worthless at battleship size, hybrids are too weak/so in your face its criminal and then you have projectile weapons - which does not fit the design philosophy of the Armageddon


It gets drones to "hunt down the heathens". Sure, I'm a lite roleplayer, but I still think people arguing from a lore-perspective are wrong about Amarr "not being a drone race". Look at the description of the Harbinger, and the mentioning of high amounts of automation in the New Eden Crew Guidelines in the Amarr Navy.

The drones will serve as excellent DPS source, and it's not like this thing will be getting a drain amount bonus. The Bhaalgorn also has longer ranged webs, meaning it can get within 24km and heavily neut things. And CCP has said they will look over the faction/pirate versions of ships soon as they rebalance things along the way.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever