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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#401 - 2013-04-09 13:58:34 UTC
Kyang Tia wrote:
Hi again,
some opinions on the Amarr changes:

The neut bonus is a good idea, and very powerful. It will give players an effective tool against logistics and nano ships. However, as a drone boat, the Geddon with its currrent changes will outshine the Domi and there is no way that is going to change as long as you want to it to be both a drone and a neut boat. Using drones as a main weapon system mitigates many of the problems neutralizers normally have (grid+cap usage). Drone ships do also inherently have powerful defensive capabilites like being less vulnerable to jamming, dampening, frigate swams etc. Look at the Domi: Neuts are already powerful on it, and that's even though it only has 6 highs, no bonus and can't even fit a full rack of heavy neuts due to lack of grid. Giving one ship a bonus to both drones and neuts is therefore going to make it pretty overpowered.

I also have to agree with many of the previous posters: To me as a rather old player, drones seem a bit un-amarrish. I like flying Prophecies, but when I think of Amarr, I still think of lasers bringing justice to the infidels.

One possible solution: Make the Geddon a turret/neut platform more similar to a Bhaal than a Dragoon. Simply switch out the laser cap bonus for neut range and keep the rof bonus. Keep the 125m³ drone bay and compensate with another high slot. Give it 5 hardpoints. 5 lasers and 3 neuts plus drones should do plenty of damage but also eat cap like there's no tomorrow, which would give the ship a weak point for its enemies to exploit. The additional high slot would also make it possible to bring 8 heavy neuts instead of 7 for when you need to break Basi/Guardian chains. You'd lose a large part of the dps though, which the drone variant would no. Seems like a fair tredeoff to me.


I'm not sure about the Apoc. It does anemic dps, but its double bonuses to projection might make it worthwhile in some situations. Younger Amarr players might find it difficult to fit a good PvE boat when no single Amarr BS with cap usage bonus remains. I think a better solution could be found here, but I'm not sure what it might look like.


The Abbaddon change is absolutely fine, imo. Redusing the resist bonus to 4% brings it in line with other bonuses without losing variety in the process. (I'm trusting this will be done on all ships with resist bonuses...)

The only problem I see with your suggestions is for it to both be firing lasers and neuts your going to need at leastdual cap boosters to even pretend at being cap stable, probably even a 3rd to counter probable return nuets, at which point this boat isn't doing anything else.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#402 - 2013-04-09 14:05:08 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
The Armageddon's Neut range bonus is too much. I honestly fail to understand why you (CCP Rise) think that this isn't an extremely powerful bonus. I would far prefer this ship is given a tracking disruptor bonus and pushed into the Disruption battleship (DBS) role. Also, only giving it 75M/Bit or at the most 100 M/Bit bandwidth would make sense when in the DBS role and then it doesn't tread on the Dominix's toes so much


The new fangled Geddon hasn't even been launched yet and already we're already getting calls to nerf it lol...


Personally I liked the old Armageddon (though have vocally campaigned for more cap) and would much prefer that CCP design a new hull for the multi-purpose attack battleship and leave the Armageddon in peace (although with more cap) as it's fine and venerable history deserves.

I mean other than cap issues it was working well, why change that.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#403 - 2013-04-09 14:10:56 UTC
Aurianka wrote:
Never change a running system, baddon need more cap at least. the only thing that change is effected at the abbadon that you must grind even longer structure.

I find myself in some minor agreement with this, the 'Baddon has long needed some cap love, even at max cap skills, you still need cap implants to avoid filling it's mids with cap rechargers for mission runners.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#404 - 2013-04-09 14:12:35 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
how about changing the geddon to have 4 heavies and give it a 5% laser damage instead of neut range bonus and then remove the launchers.
this way domi is still better droneboat and geddon isn't an OP neuty droneboat missile ship....
Oh and reduce the mass of all battleships by a couple of million to boost align time.
And if you want attack bs to use AB's you will need to buff AB's somewhat like reduce the mass of them they shouldn't have the same mass as an mwd, a web resistance inbuilt would help and a bigger speed boost.

Reducing the mass and increasing the thrust amount of 100mn ABs would be building in 'some web resist'.
Doctor Ape MD
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#405 - 2013-04-09 14:13:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Ape MD
A typical PvE apocalpyse fit is already filled to the brim with cap rechargers and/or power relays most of the time. This makes for boring fits that all end up looking the same while taking away any possible utilities to make flying the ships more 'fun' (webs, scrams, ABs, MWDs, etc) without constantly having to feed a cap booster.

Yes I realize some 'elite' players prefer cap boosters, but these are the same players with very high skills and implants that are able to do far more DPs than a new or 'average' Amarr pilot.

I fear these changes will just make things worse. Newer players will end up with ridiculous fits like 4x cap recharger 2 in the mids and 2x cpr 2s in the lows just to compensate. Once you are done with the other requirements (repper, mission hardeners, etc) you will end up with every ship being almost exactly the same with 0 utility to make things more fun and less painful (flying to far away gates with no AB or MWD). At least with the old Apocalpyse I had the option of switching between tracking speed and optimal range using scripts and a tracking computer, now it seems like Apoc pilots are basically forced to swap their old configurable tracking computer for another cap recharger. Sure the tracking bonus is better, but you lose the ability to switch to the range bonus on the fly.

I think before these changes go into effect lasers need to be looked at or more bandaids need to be applied (bigger caps on amarr ships, or cap bonuses). It also seems wrong to me that a battlecruiser (Oracle) is possibly still a better large laser delivery system than ANY of the Amarr battleships.
This Suxbad
State War Academy
Caldari State
#406 - 2013-04-09 14:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: This Suxbad
I am confused about these latest "rebalances", what exactly are you balancing with?
I am assuming you are balancing with new players and F1 smashers as the baseline.
While I find these changes interesting I do not believe they do anything but nerf several existing ships or change up the use of a couple.

Frigs and cruisers were buffed heavily and BC's were buffed a little. But with these mentioned ideas 2 cruisers would still smash 1 BC.

This may be one of the strange things in eve I may never understand like how a ship at too close of a range can't hit a ship twice it's size while both are doing 0. Or why a legion gets better armor bonuses than a titan when I could mount a legion on an erebus and never even notice it was attached.

Shrug* I find the proposed ship stuff for the summer terribly dissapointing and believe skills are being thrown in the trash.

While I am here I would also like to state my biggest pet peve in eve is the statement of over powered... It is a stupid statement when everyone can train and fly the same ships. If you think a nyx or drake is "OP" go get your own. If you think off grid boosters are "OP" go get your own or fly to another system where there are none. ffs the only people with an advantage in this game are the corps with devs in them.

Definition of blob is more friends than you! Do you play eve or play eve for others?
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#407 - 2013-04-09 14:19:22 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
These changes make Bhaalgorn and Nightmare not worth using anymore with their price tags since these will be so much cheaper...

Also great way to butcher Apocalypse that many liked to run missions with without constantly eating cap booster charges...

Everyone else has to eat ammo. It seems only fair that the Amarr have to eat cap boosters.

in which case, the Amarr boats should have enough cargohold to actually carry enough booster charges to make some difference, currently if the fights are prolonged, they end up losing out b'c they run out of "ammo" long before any other race... and to fully debunk this, crystals are ammo, and do get used up over time, with the exception of the 'nilla standard crystals, they do break over time.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#408 - 2013-04-09 14:19:36 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
how about changing the geddon to have 4 heavies and give it a 5% laser damage instead of neut range bonus and then remove the launchers.
this way domi is still better droneboat and geddon isn't an OP neuty droneboat missile ship....
Oh and reduce the mass of all battleships by a couple of million to boost align time.
And if you want attack bs to use AB's you will need to buff AB's somewhat like reduce the mass of them they shouldn't have the same mass as an mwd, a web resistance inbuilt would help and a bigger speed boost.

Reducing the mass and increasing the thrust amount of 100mn ABs would be building in 'some web resist'.


Well the web resist would be useful on all sizes but they need to give more reasons to use an AB as with an AB you will be brawling rather than kiting and webs are so strong they make AB's largely pointless at that point.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#409 - 2013-04-09 14:26:20 UTC
Sakkar Arenith wrote:
Surely has been cleared already, but use discharge elutrations and a cap booster! All the amarr pilots I know don't complain in the slightest once they fitted that stuff ♥

Right, because laser boats should have to use rig slots that everyone else uses for tank to try to fix cap use issues. (yes, sarcasm)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#410 - 2013-04-09 14:29:10 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
The Armageddon's Neut range bonus is too much. I honestly fail to understand why you (CCP Rise) think that this isn't an extremely powerful bonus. I would far prefer this ship is given a tracking disruptor bonus and pushed into the Disruption battleship (DBS) role. Also, only giving it 75M/Bit or at the most 100 M/Bit bandwidth would make sense when in the DBS role and then it doesn't tread on the Dominix's toes so much



Th eissue is. Giving the same bonus as the frigates and cruiser ewar ships woudl be a BIT pointless. Wastign a whole battleship for that. The neut bonus is ok, but the ship fitting would have to be VERY fine tunned so it cannot field easily a full rack of them.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#411 - 2013-04-09 14:29:11 UTC
I'll leave this right here:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/73530

By CCP Ytterbium
Armageddon: this ship is performing well at the time being, and thus we have little reason to alter it.
Apocalypse: is behaving well at the moment, so there is little point in changing it.
Abbadon: a nice ship with fine purpose in fleets and large gangs.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#412 - 2013-04-09 14:29:29 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Meduza13 wrote:

Everyone else has to eat ammo. It seems only fair that the Amarr have to eat cap boosters.



But using ammo isn't forcing you to fit dedicated modules for it, is it? And for cap boosters you have to use med slot don't you? never mind that you can put only couple cap boosters in cargo, which will most likely not last for whole mission.
Think before you write something, please

PvE? So you can run your armor reps cap stable and are complaining about the guns... hmhm. And you got over 500m³ of cargo, you can't tell me you cannot clear a mission before you run through those.
[/quote]
Actually, no, 500m3 is NOT enough room to carry enough 800 (even Navy) charges to run through an entire L4 mission. (and yes, when I'm in my 'Baddon clone, I not only have max cap skills, and cap implants, but fit cap rigs to it as well).
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#413 - 2013-04-09 14:30:12 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Kyang Tia wrote:
Hi again,
some opinions on the Amarr changes:

The neut bonus is a good idea, and very powerful. It will give players an effective tool against logistics and nano ships. However, as a drone boat, the Geddon with its currrent changes will outshine the Domi and there is no way that is going to change as long as you want to it to be both a drone and a neut boat. Using drones as a main weapon system mitigates many of the problems neutralizers normally have (grid+cap usage). Drone ships do also inherently have powerful defensive capabilites like being less vulnerable to jamming, dampening, frigate swams etc. Look at the Domi: Neuts are already powerful on it, and that's even though it only has 6 highs, no bonus and can't even fit a full rack of heavy neuts due to lack of grid. Giving one ship a bonus to both drones and neuts is therefore going to make it pretty overpowered.

I also have to agree with many of the previous posters: To me as a rather old player, drones seem a bit un-amarrish. I like flying Prophecies, but when I think of Amarr, I still think of lasers bringing justice to the infidels.

One possible solution: Make the Geddon a turret/neut platform more similar to a Bhaal than a Dragoon. Simply switch out the laser cap bonus for neut range and keep the rof bonus. Keep the 125m³ drone bay and compensate with another high slot. Give it 5 hardpoints. 5 lasers and 3 neuts plus drones should do plenty of damage but also eat cap like there's no tomorrow, which would give the ship a weak point for its enemies to exploit. The additional high slot would also make it possible to bring 8 heavy neuts instead of 7 for when you need to break Basi/Guardian chains. You'd lose a large part of the dps though, which the drone variant would no. Seems like a fair tredeoff to me.


I'm not sure about the Apoc. It does anemic dps, but its double bonuses to projection might make it worthwhile in some situations. Younger Amarr players might find it difficult to fit a good PvE boat when no single Amarr BS with cap usage bonus remains. I think a better solution could be found here, but I'm not sure what it might look like.


The Abbaddon change is absolutely fine, imo. Redusing the resist bonus to 4% brings it in line with other bonuses without losing variety in the process. (I'm trusting this will be done on all ships with resist bonuses...)

The only problem I see with your suggestions is for it to both be firing lasers and neuts your going to need at leastdual cap boosters to even pretend at being cap stable, probably even a 3rd to counter probable return nuets, at which point this boat isn't doing anything else.



That is the whoel point, using lasers limit a bit the usage of the neutralziers into reasoanble levels.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#414 - 2013-04-09 14:32:26 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
I'll leave this right here:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/73530

By CCP Ytterbium
Armageddon: this ship is performing well at the time being, and thus we have little reason to alter it.
Apocalypse: is behaving well at the moment, so there is little point in changing it.
Abbadon: a nice ship with fine purpose in fleets and large gangs.


I referenced that Dev Blog already :D

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#415 - 2013-04-09 14:33:28 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:

And this just further proves my point that A) the Apoc needs Cap love to be proper, as not all PvP fleets will be able to support it's Cap needs (even at max skills, it doesn't have enough cap to be anything like stable), and that Tach's need some love if we are seriously going to see them being used on T1 hulls.
Playing round with EFT, I think the Apoc (and other laser BS) need CPU and Power Grid at least as much as cap, or Tachs need their fitting requirements relaxed a good deal - even more than running dry on cap (laser boats are hardly the only ships with this problem), it's hard to even fit the things.

You are Correct, they will need help with fitting the Tachs, but don't forget that Tachs also use cap more rapidly then any other turret in the game, so even if you fit them to begin with, your going through your cap even more quickly. And I'm not saying that other racial hulls don't run through cap, just that even with the old cap reduction hull boosts, amarr ships went through it quicker then they did, and with the removal of those boosts (not saying we should keep them, mind you, it is better to get other boosts in place of them), this issue is simply going to become more pronounced.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#416 - 2013-04-09 14:35:24 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
amarr are meant to be cap problematic even with perfect skills, but the removing of the cap use boni is still good so when like i said before the cap is properly adjusted on the hull.

Whatever drugs your using... stop. The hulls need proper "cap adjusting" to balance out the removal of the cap reduction bonuses.
Mr Hyde113
#417 - 2013-04-09 14:39:05 UTC
So after reviewing feedback on the Gallente Thread you have posted that you are going to take another look at the Mega and Hyp changes, but you haven't made a similar post regarding Amarr...

Do we need another 10 pages of complaints in order to get the same reconsideration?
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#418 - 2013-04-09 14:46:29 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
how about changing the geddon to have 4 heavies and give it a 5% laser damage instead of neut range bonus and then remove the launchers.
this way domi is still better droneboat and geddon isn't an OP neuty droneboat missile ship....
Oh and reduce the mass of all battleships by a couple of million to boost align time.
And if you want attack bs to use AB's you will need to buff AB's somewhat like reduce the mass of them they shouldn't have the same mass as an mwd, a web resistance inbuilt would help and a bigger speed boost.

Reducing the mass and increasing the thrust amount of 100mn ABs would be building in 'some web resist'.


Well the web resist would be useful on all sizes but they need to give more reasons to use an AB as with an AB you will be brawling rather than kiting and webs are so strong they make AB's largely pointless at that point.

True, and to add more proof to your point, BS are so slow at baseline to begin with hardly anyone bothers to put ABs on them anyway as it just isn't enough to compensate for the speeds of smaller ships even if they didn't have a prop mod fitted.
LuisWu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#419 - 2013-04-09 14:52:00 UTC
I was going to say I don´t like the new changes, but after read the gallente battleship omni-nerf I feel almost relief.

Just one question, ¿are lasers going to be rebalanced? (reducing cap usage)

F*** This Game
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#420 - 2013-04-09 14:58:52 UTC
LuisWu wrote:
I was going to say I don´t like the new changes, but after read the gallente battleship omni-nerf I feel almost relief.

Just one question, ¿are lasers going to be rebalanced? (reducing cap usage)

We know that laser changes are on the board for sometime after the launch of Odessey, but per usual no time reference nor (till they have it on their desks to start going over, I presume) any idea as to what they will actually entail.