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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#161 - 2011-10-31 16:33:18 UTC
As others have said, it's a nice start but probably isn't enough. The inherent problem is that blaster ships are armor-tanked passively, and as such as quite slow to get up close before they start doing any damage (the small agility and speed bump given here won't solve that). When compared to the huge operational range of ACs and (especially) pulse lasers with Scorch, it's rare to be able to get into range to do proper blaster damage. And if by some miracle you do, that damage isn't all that much more than the aforementioned ACs, pulses etc which have been hammering at you all the time while closing in.

Blasters work if you land right on top of someone and are able to immediately scram and web them -- and even then, with the reduced web effectiveness we have now, it's not a given.

Honestly, I think that Scorch and (Barrage? The usually used t2 AC ammo) are just too good, in comparison. They give utterly huge operational ranges to both ACs and pulse lasers. Compared to those, blasters aren't worth using, even with these moderately conservative boosts. Hate to say it, but they need a nerf.

Sure, the boost is welcome. I just don't think it makes up for the overpowered nature of ACs and pulse lasers (with certain ammo) in comparison.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2011-10-31 16:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Great to see CCP address the issue and obviously they are tracking on the fact that the ships using them are all jacked up. Unless this is addressed all these changes are frankly a minor band-aid, but I'll add a few more 2 cents on the table:

1) Why is the Mrym and the Ishkur not gettting the speed/agility boost? You can't tell me they are too fast already and the poor Myrm needs some help.

2) Since all the other weapon systems seem to have a unique capability such as either not using cap, or no ammo needed, change of damage type, or missiles don't miss (for the most part); how about giving Hybrids something special as well. Like INSTANT AMMO changes like scripts. This would help in shifting ammo types to deal with ranging which is not realistic now with that 10 second delay.

3) Will all these tracking increases make frigs unable to tackle without being popped?
Alara IonStorm
#163 - 2011-10-31 16:35:58 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:

So, the reason to use beam lasers is now... oh wait, there's none.

Don't feel so bad, after the changes there will still be no reason to use Rails ether.

Scorch, Heavy Missiles and Artillery are the long range weapons in the the game.

They should look into that.
Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#164 - 2011-10-31 16:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Harumichi
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The shortest range weapon system needs to be on the fastest ships. Period. End of story. Gallente already have some large hulls. Let them at least have the ability to get into range very quickly.


This, pretty much. Right now the fastest hulls (Minmatar) also have the borderline-overpowered weapon systems (ACs). Guess what people fly in close-range combat? What?

...and of course, in addition to being the fastest hulls by numerical stats, Minmatar also shield-tank. Gallente ones are significantly slower and are forced to armor-tank (which means plates because of the non-working nature of pvp active tanking, which means extra speed penalties). It doesn't work.
Perdition64
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2011-10-31 16:37:24 UTC
Ancy Denaries wrote:
Jackie Fisher wrote:
No cap usage reduction?

Reading comprehension. You might want to look into it.


Actually, that wasn't there until that post, alerting CCP Tallest to his mistake, which got him to change the blog to include it.

You might want to work on your reading comprehension too.
Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#166 - 2011-10-31 16:37:40 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Perdition64 wrote:
hurricane vs brutix


this is a good summary of why pvp'ers generally stick with AC platforms.

- incredible falloff
- better tracking
- no cap use
- minnie ships are the fastest
- while tank remains on par with all other ships

this is overpowered. you have to give people a reason NOT TO fly an AC boat at medium/close ranges. remember, one scram and the blaster boat is dead in the water....AC boat is still doing significant damage at 25km, medium blasters dont work past 10km.


And this. Max gank fitted Brutix overloads 965 DPS without implants, Hurricane does 905 DPS or 821 DPS with amazing neuting power while outperforming in nearly every other way (muuch faster even after the change, able to deal good damage outside of scram range etc)
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#167 - 2011-10-31 16:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Pattern Clarc wrote:
With further analysis, the change/boost that will have the most effect was the hybrid grid reduction - Increases the viably of active tanking setups somewhat (though as long as neuts remain in the game as they are I don't think i'll be doing active tanking on sub cap gallente... ever). Tracking... not enough, there is little reason why blasters should not be able to hit ships of equal signature, in an orbit at optimal range for 100% accuracy. Some of us understand for this to be possible the tracking formula may need to be re-written?

As for speed, unless there's a mass reduction bonus I didn't read, will it really be enough?


I agree. It's like instead of hybrids being really crappy, they are now just plain crappy. They will be a bit better, but there is other weapon platforms that simply will do the job better.
Delicious Bacon
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2011-10-31 16:39:10 UTC
gfldex wrote:


In my eyes the root of all evil started at the very beginning of EVE when 4 races got introduced that where ment to fill the same role without being redundant. Nobody would argue about the inferiority of Apocs compared to Hulks because those different factions ships are meant to fulfill a different role. If you don't give up on the concept of having the same role for different ships or weapon systems you will just keep shifting FotMs around.


And that is what we like to call "balance". It's a b#@$% isn't it?
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#169 - 2011-10-31 16:40:47 UTC
Llyandrian wrote:

The huge spike in hail volume last week 4 million units in one trade is more than a typical month and implies a leak.


Yes, you can read about it here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24631

If you read more in the forums you could've taken part in that ammo price speculation!
The most relevant part is the link in that post entitled "UPDATE: Winter patch preliminary specifics!", linking to the third page. Most changes mentioned in the blog have been available there...
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#170 - 2011-10-31 16:46:19 UTC
here are the fixes for hybrids:

blasters:

concept shotguns (short range arties...)

1. Increase base damage by 50%
2. Decrease rate of fire by 30%
3. Increase falloff by 15%
4. increase tracking by 37.5%

railguns: Concept long range auto cannons

1. Increase base damage by 15%
2. Increase rate of fire by 15%
3. decrease activation cost by 40%
4. increase tracking by 37.5%

ammo:

Simular boost that projectile ammo got

concept choice between what damage type you want to do between thermal and Kinetic (i.e. antimater does 80% thermal damage 20% kin damage, uranium does 80% kin damage and 20% thermal damage)

also include a tracking bonus built into the ammo

Caldari boost:
remove the optimal range bonus for hybrid turrets and replace with a rate of fire bonus

gallente boost:
remove the falloff bonus and tracking bonus and replace with a speed pulpusion moduel mass reduction per level

change the internal rep bonus to include a bonus incomming remote rep

General fix:
change the speed reduction affect on armor rigs and replace with an agility reduction
change reload time from 10 seconds to 5 seconds

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Jeffrey Powel
Primal Elemental
MARABUNTA
#171 - 2011-10-31 16:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeffrey Powel
And after that hybrid will be overpowered. Ok for a boost, but don't joke.
BTW i like the concept to have 2 close range ammo whith different kin/therm %, very nice idea.
Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#172 - 2011-10-31 16:55:47 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:

So, the reason to use beam lasers is now... oh wait, there's none.

Don't feel so bad, after the changes there will still be no reason to use Rails ether.

Scorch, Heavy Missiles and Artillery are the long range weapons in the the game.

They should look into that.


Yup. Scorch, in particular, is stupidly overpowered.
Hentes Zsemle
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2011-10-31 16:56:38 UTC
Theese are not the changes you are looking for.
Iohet Nolafew
Perkone
Caldari State
#174 - 2011-10-31 16:58:09 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
The shortest range weapon system needs to be on the fastest ships. Period. End of story. Gallente already have some large hulls. Let them at least have the ability to get into range very quickly.


Exactly. Change should be applied to Angel ships, as well.

Katrina Bekers wrote:

You're really unable to give our race some EXCLUSIVE love, aren't you? You feel this urge to buff the already overused Minmatar or the ubiquitous Caldari in the meanwhile, huh?


No one said it was a Gallente buff. Half of the Caldari ships are basically useless. They're fat, slow, shield ships that fit no doctrine and do laughable damage. They suffer the same problems as Gallente, except when you ignore weapon system slow armor ships are acceptable while slow shield ships are not.

Faelyn L'Darcassan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#175 - 2011-10-31 17:00:45 UTC
Since it has been mentioned that Gallente ships have trouble getting into range in the first place, how about giving them a mwd bonus? like +10% mwd speed per level? wouldn't that help? once in range, they'd scram/web their target and melt them with blasters?
Xavier Linx
Omni Research
#176 - 2011-10-31 17:01:24 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Would recommend giving each of the t2 ammo's different bonuses. The game is better when the feel and behaviour of races is distinctive.


+1
Though I think this is a great start,
Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#177 - 2011-10-31 17:01:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Archetype 66
All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier

How does it work ? I'm not comfortable with turret formulas and how bonus works (Turret + Skills + Ship Bonus+ Riggs + Implants etc...)* But does a +10% to Damage modifier means mandatory +10% DPS...I'm not sure about that and I feel that it can be more...

* I had read an excelent post about how bonus work and how they apply (Skills > Riggs with penality or not etc..) but I can't find it anymore. Anyone can link it or PM it to me. Tvm !
Jeffrey Powel
Primal Elemental
MARABUNTA
#178 - 2011-10-31 17:07:08 UTC
Faelyn L'Darcassan wrote:
Since it has been mentioned that Gallente ships have trouble getting into range in the first place, how about giving them a mwd bonus? like +10% mwd speed per level? wouldn't that help? once in range, they'd scram/web their target and melt them with blasters?

Do you realise the speed a 10% mwd speed give to a ship?
Tashanaka
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2011-10-31 17:07:53 UTC
I'm not convinced this will fix hybrids. Sure they will be easier to fit, use less cap, and L/M/S blasters have 20% better tracking, however, they've buffed the tracking of other short range weapons by 50% which seems to nullify the blaster bonus.

+10 speed boost doesn't seem like a big change (Deimos goes from 198m/s to 208m/s) and with a T2 AB it'll go 20m/s faster than current. Blaster boats will still be kited to death by Pulse & AC boats without any way to applying DPS while the Pulse & AC boats can apply DPS. Blasters will still be a very situation weapon system, thus I'd still rather use my Zealot or train for a 'Cane than fly a Deimos.

"...The goal is to make them better at what they already do, not to change their roles. Blasters should do high damage at short range. Railguns should do average damage at long range..."

Seems CCP is enforcing LORE over a real buff to hybrids without taking into consideration the reality of how EVE really plays.

Spazz21
Infinite Improbable Industry Inc
Pandemic Horde
#180 - 2011-10-31 17:08:40 UTC
I think I just crapped a Rainbow in my pants.... wwwweeeeeeeeeeeee!!!