These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Perdition64
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2011-10-31 16:18:32 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Sounds to me that when it comes to PvP, it's less a matter of hybrids being sucky, but of projectiles being ridiculously good.


That's becoming more and more apparent.

I dislike power creep, I have to say. Perhaps nerfing projectiles in line with other weapon systems is a better idea.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#142 - 2011-10-31 16:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
CCP Tallest wrote:
Jackie Fisher wrote:
No cap usage reduction?


Actually, yes there is. I accidentally left it out of the blog. Sorry about that. It is being added to the blog right now.

Reduced Capacitor usage:
* All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use



@Tallest:

Are you going to throw the changes to T2 missiles in there as well?



Unrelated question, still wondering if the devs are planning on changing up the missile graphics for the winter expansion.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Jeffrey Powel
Primal Elemental
MARABUNTA
#143 - 2011-10-31 16:19:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeffrey Powel
A failoff boost on blaster more helpfull than a tracking boost = start to DPS at longer range (helpfull in fleet), can play the range to have tracking, can DPS a bit nano ship instead dying like a kitten in a mixer, give an utility to the usless failoff bonus on deimos and astarte, and give a real utility to use null ammo. I think a 15 or 20% failoff boost not too much OP, considering in blaster boat you have to be in web/scramble/neutra range to be efficient.
And work about this other usless bonus : the armor rep amount. It's really ****** compared to a 5% all resist, armor resist bonus is good for remote tanking, passive tank, capacitor, armor rep bonus just good for active tank...
And add a low slot to the hyperion... abaddon got 20 slot, hyperion 19, what is that joke?
If you don't boost failoff, remove failloff bonus on astarte/deimos for a web efficiency bonus.
BTW, capacitor use reduction, good (a bit late, but good), grid and CPU use, good (not bad).
Crias Taylor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2011-10-31 16:20:10 UTC
pmchem wrote:
blasters will still suck for many of the reasons already stated by others


State them again so it doesn't go ignored. It takes 5 years for hybrid tweaks.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2011-10-31 16:21:53 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Sounds to me that when it comes to PvP, it's less a matter of hybrids being sucky, but of projectiles being ridiculously good.


Arguably, for starters all CCP needs to do is halve the Falloff bonus on TE's to make them match the Optimal bonus. It will at least improve the balance of the bonuses across the weapons systems a bit and not heavily favour Autocannons.
Garbad theWeak
#146 - 2011-10-31 16:22:38 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Garbad theWeak wrote:

- hybrid snipers are once again top in the game. At 200k, they outperform even lasers, and shockingly, caldari are the best. I think hybrids are officially fixed. You can debate if armor snipers are still better, but its competitive, especially the naga. They also should easily outrange pulses now.


First off, 200km sniping is a dinosaur strategy for obvious reasons. The fact they "easily out-range," a short-range weapon system shouldn't be an issue. In what way does this "fix," rails? Why would you choose to abandon a mael for a rokh because of these changes? Would you ever think that an eagle was a better choice than a zealot for sniper hac in light of these changes? If your answer is "yes," to either of those you either know something Tallest isn't telling us, or you're completely off-base.
Obviously, but if things change caldari hybrids are now the kings of 200k+ sniping. And that's it. For 100k sniperhacs, eagle is still the worst (lowest dps, EM hole, superfluous range). For 150k BS, maels still dominate. For brawlers, both nanopest and hellcat still dominate hybrid platforms.
Rikki Sals
BioLogistics
#147 - 2011-10-31 16:22:57 UTC
I hope that this is just the beginning and that balance in general gets fine tuned more frequently. These changes look pretty good. Cool
Noisrevbus
#148 - 2011-10-31 16:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Greetings Tallest et. al.

CCP Tallest wrote:
...they are meant for longer range combat and as such should not need a velocity boost as much as other hybrid turret ships.


That excerpt from the blog make it sound as a deliberate and conscious choice, tied to a larger plan or vision for how things are meant to be played or function.

I would appreciate it if you (CCP Tallest) or someone else could outline, explain and motivate that part a bit better.

The general consensus on these forums seem to be that hybrid platforms with range bonuses fare no better than other hybrid platforms, while some of their largest issues are tied to "extreme long range" being outdated as a concept, and lacking mobility being a key factor keeping them out of gangs and contest aside those ranges. There need to be something more behind such an abrubt conclusion as "they have range, should get less". Will they get something else? is this coupled with upcomming changes to reinforce "extreme long range" that let them capitalize on said range bonuses in terms of actual range (as opposed to ammo selection)? etc. You leave alot of questions unanswered.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#149 - 2011-10-31 16:24:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Quote:
Hybrid Turrets

Reduce CPU usage:

XL Turrets: -5 CPU
L Turrets: -3 CPU
M Turrets: -2 CPU
S Turrets: -1 CPU

Reduce Powergrid usage:

All hybrid turrets: -12% Powergrid usage. Rounded to nearest whole number.

Reduced Capacitor usage:

All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use

Damage Increase:

All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier


So, the reason to use beam lasers is now... oh wait, there's none.

Whoever decided rails should deal the same damage as beams needs to do some serious elaborating to justify coping with their abnormal cap usage and their fittings stats for a mere gain of some tracking.

I for one don't see how it's balanced.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#150 - 2011-10-31 16:27:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Raimo
Morel Nova wrote:
I like it overall, but a few reflections:

1. I still think blasters need a flat 10% or so damage buff up close, perhaps even 20% to make them competitive, as it is now an armor hurricane will out-dps a brutix and be more agile/faster (not sure if that last one changes with this), and it still has decent range. Tracking boost isnt much of a boost considering any AC ships you fight will have dual TE most of the time, so will still track just as well as you.

I did some rough calculations some time ago of vagabond vs deimos, both standard fits and deimos needs to catch and get to optimal within 15 seconds to win that engagement. that is a very short period of time and it didnt even factor in the vagabonds tracking advantage.

2. Hail doesnt need its ranged penalty removed. not sure where you got the idea that it was under performant. its been the only close range t2 ammo thats been useful the last few years.


This really. (With formatting)
Kraven Drakenovic
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2011-10-31 16:27:24 UTC
I have noticed 2 destinct camps in this debate:

1) the EFT Warriors are all Hur Hur they are now l33t

2) the ppl actually persisting using hybrid blasters and rails. And screaming for ccp to recognise the actual fault

YER eft is a great tool.
It does not however replicate realtime combat situations as constantly changing transversals and angular velocities

Yeah these changes look awesome on Eft

But when was the las time u sat still while someone is taking pot shots at your hull?

I have an idea go use a megathron in a lvl 4 with 425 mm guns on it and try and do sufficient damage to remove a BS before your cap bottoms out its like throwing rocks at the sea hoping to fill it up. Sure it will work. But your gunna be there a LONG time.

" Your group of 425mm Railgun II misses (target) completely

If i had a 100 isk for everytime that was broadcast i'd own jita
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#152 - 2011-10-31 16:27:37 UTC
These changes seem about right. Give hybrids a significant, but not ridiculous, buff. Then if there's still an issue with particular ships, you can tweak the ship stats (or bonuses) in the next iteration. If you make the hybrid buff itself so ridonkulous that ALL hybrid boats are suddenly feasible, then some hybrid boats will be ridiculously OP.

GJ CCP
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#153 - 2011-10-31 16:28:51 UTC
With further analysis, the change/boost that will have the most effect was the hybrid grid reduction - Increases the viably of active tanking setups somewhat (though as long as neuts remain in the game as they are I don't think i'll be doing active tanking on sub cap gallente... ever). Tracking... not enough, there is little reason why blasters should not be able to hit ships of equal signature, in an orbit at optimal range for 100% accuracy. Some of us understand for this to be possible the tracking formula may need to be re-written?

As for speed, unless there's a mass reduction bonus I didn't read, will it really be enough?

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#154 - 2011-10-31 16:30:21 UTC
Since you agree that the ships and armor tanking needs to be looked at as well can you balance one or two ships along with these changes?
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#155 - 2011-10-31 16:30:58 UTC
The shortest range weapon system needs to be on the fastest ships. Period. End of story. Gallente already have some large hulls. Let them at least have the ability to get into range very quickly.
Crias Taylor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2011-10-31 16:31:07 UTC
Who the hell snipes over 150kms?  They'll just warp on top of you. 
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
#157 - 2011-10-31 16:31:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ancy Denaries
*removed*

"Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."

"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2011-10-31 16:32:28 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:

Now, a speedboost certainly is a good start, but you cant make Gallente ships faster than minmatar without breaking the lore.


Then let them make new lore, cant they say that some gallente engineer have designed a new superior propulsion system for gallente ships that make them faster but less agile than minmatar ships?
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#159 - 2011-10-31 16:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Garbad theWeak wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Garbad theWeak wrote:

- hybrid snipers are once again top in the game. At 200k, they outperform even lasers, and shockingly, caldari are the best. I think hybrids are officially fixed. You can debate if armor snipers are still better, but its competitive, especially the naga. They also should easily outrange pulses now.


First off, 200km sniping is a dinosaur strategy for obvious reasons. The fact they "easily out-range," a short-range weapon system shouldn't be an issue. In what way does this "fix," rails? Why would you choose to abandon a mael for a rokh because of these changes? Would you ever think that an eagle was a better choice than a zealot for sniper hac in light of these changes? If your answer is "yes," to either of those you either know something Tallest isn't telling us, or you're completely off-base.
Obviously, but if things change caldari hybrids are now the kings of 200k+ sniping. And that's it. For 100k sniperhacs, eagle is still the worst (lowest dps, EM hole, superfluous range). For 150k BS, maels still dominate. For brawlers, both nanopest and hellcat still dominate hybrid platforms.


Thanks for making my point. 200km sniping is not a niche worth having on any ship. Rails, hybrids in general, are in no way "top in the game," due to the listed changes. In-fact they're all still sub-par to their laser and especially projectile alternatives.

Are you changing your mind or just insisting that 200km snipers are better than we all know them to be?
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#160 - 2011-10-31 16:33:13 UTC
I came! D: