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Ship balance in general and BUILD COST

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Bangkirai
Brewery Research Ltd
#1 - 2013-04-08 15:54:55 UTC
Its nice you are busy with all kinds of change to ships, but something you keep ignoring from the start of eve is:

The buildcost of them.

In the years since the start of eve, you changed loads of ships, but you hardly ever touched the buildcost.
In all the ship balancing idea's, you change hi,med,low slots and bonusses, but never change the buildcost of the ships.

That is just not right, in that way you can never balance ships!
You are now looking at bonusses and think you balance them, but why would anyway fly an expensive ship, if a cheaper ship does the job almost as well?

I suggest that, before these ship changes get life, that a team also spents a good amount of time on balancing the buildcost of ships, compared to their current stats. Maybe its wiser to come up with a system, that automatically adjust the buildcost of ship bpo's, when you change ship's bonus and number of slots.
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#2 - 2013-04-08 16:13:31 UTC
What, you mean the way buildcost got increased for all the rebalanced t1 frigates, cruisers, and BC's?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3 - 2013-04-08 16:20:52 UTC
We adjust the build cost of each class of ships as we rebalance them.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-04-08 16:28:05 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We adjust the build cost of each class of ships as we rebalance them.


I would suggest using Tier 2 battleships as the rough pricing of ships as Tier 3 prices are too high and thats before you add modules and rigs which is another 60mil -80mil on top of 300 mil.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Jureth22
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2013-04-08 16:39:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We adjust the build cost of each class of ships as we rebalance them.



not funny.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-04-08 16:44:02 UTC
Battleships will be an investment again. Begone the days of throw away front line ships.

There should be pride in warping Battleships into a fight. A commitment.

+1 CCP

No Worries
ZD LoveMe
uncooperative freight company
#7 - 2013-04-08 17:07:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ZD LoveMe
ChromeStriker wrote:
Battleships will be an investment again. Begone the days of throw away front line ships.

There should be pride in warping Battleships into a fight. A commitment.

+1 CCP


You are not the pvp-guy, aren't you? Even if they all would cost as much as an Tier 3 BS does now (or even more) you can hardly speak of an "investment".
Jacid
Corvix.
#8 - 2013-04-08 17:08:59 UTC
I don't think its build costs that is the issue so much as the general inflation in the game that your noticing. I remember at one point and time trit was under 2 isk per unit and a tier 3 battleship cost 130 mil. Today tier 3s push 250-260 .. It makes me curious as to how income has scaled compared to inflation on per a per region / and per security (HS, LS, NS, WH space). Has anybody seen any figure like this?
chuckfinleyrocks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-04-08 17:19:14 UTC
Jacid wrote:
I don't think its build costs that is the issue so much as the general inflation in the game that your noticing. I remember at one point and time trit was under 2 isk per unit and a tier 3 battleship cost 130 mil. Today tier 3s push 250-260 .. It makes me curious as to how income has scaled compared to inflation on per a per region / and per security (HS, LS, NS, WH space). Has anybody seen any figure like this?






As ccp wants you to not have any isk to spend on GTCs, they increase the costs of everything else little by little. Until Star Citizen comes and EVE's market crashes.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-04-08 17:56:31 UTC
chuckfinleyrocks wrote:
Jacid wrote:
I don't think its build costs that is the issue so much as the general inflation in the game that your noticing. I remember at one point and time trit was under 2 isk per unit and a tier 3 battleship cost 130 mil. Today tier 3s push 250-260 .. It makes me curious as to how income has scaled compared to inflation on per a per region / and per security (HS, LS, NS, WH space). Has anybody seen any figure like this?






As ccp wants you to not have any isk to spend on GTCs, they increase the costs of everything else little by little. Until Star Citizen comes and EVE's market crashes.


Awesome game, last monument of a generation. I wish it would come sooner. Already contributed kickstarter $2700 at highest tier. Think of it as a tribute to my childhood.Smile

In any case, it has to do with mineral faucet being killed off, first by mission loot nerf, then by bot purge. 2nd may have been necessary, but first wrecks havoc with the economy for no good reason. All the while isk faucet via bounty and insurance sturdily increased as player base increase. Slightly more isk vs a lot less mineral = more isk per mineral.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2013-04-08 18:08:23 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
chuckfinleyrocks wrote:
Jacid wrote:
I don't think its build costs that is the issue so much as the general inflation in the game that your noticing. I remember at one point and time trit was under 2 isk per unit and a tier 3 battleship cost 130 mil. Today tier 3s push 250-260 .. It makes me curious as to how income has scaled compared to inflation on per a per region / and per security (HS, LS, NS, WH space). Has anybody seen any figure like this?






As ccp wants you to not have any isk to spend on GTCs, they increase the costs of everything else little by little. Until Star Citizen comes and EVE's market crashes.


Awesome game, last monument of a generation. I wish it would come sooner. Already contributed kickstarter $2700 at highest tier. Think of it as a tribute to my childhood.Smile

In any case, it has to do with mineral faucet being killed off, first by mission loot nerf, then by bot purge. 2nd may have been necessary, but first wrecks havoc with the economy for no good reason. All the while isk faucet via bounty and insurance sturdily increased as player base increase. Slightly more isk vs a lot less mineral = more isk per mineral.



I think the drone loot nerf hit harder than the rest, didn't it?
Dave Stark
#12 - 2013-04-08 18:13:54 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
I think the drone loot nerf hit harder than the rest, didn't it?


people like to consistently forget that ever happened and then cry "the end is near".
it's best to point and laugh at people like that.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-04-08 18:16:03 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
chuckfinleyrocks wrote:
Jacid wrote:
I don't think its build costs that is the issue so much as the general inflation in the game that your noticing. I remember at one point and time trit was under 2 isk per unit and a tier 3 battleship cost 130 mil. Today tier 3s push 250-260 .. It makes me curious as to how income has scaled compared to inflation on per a per region / and per security (HS, LS, NS, WH space). Has anybody seen any figure like this?






As ccp wants you to not have any isk to spend on GTCs, they increase the costs of everything else little by little. Until Star Citizen comes and EVE's market crashes.


Awesome game, last monument of a generation. I wish it would come sooner. Already contributed kickstarter $2700 at highest tier. Think of it as a tribute to my childhood.Smile

In any case, it has to do with mineral faucet being killed off, first by mission loot nerf, then by bot purge. 2nd may have been necessary, but first wrecks havoc with the economy for no good reason. All the while isk faucet via bounty and insurance sturdily increased as player base increase. Slightly more isk vs a lot less mineral = more isk per mineral.



I think the drone loot nerf hit harder than the rest, didn't it?


It hit some ppl hard and fast. The mineral index change isn't as big.
Hakan MacTrew
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-04-08 18:39:16 UTC
The price of production is affected by a combination of the following factors:

1 - mineral availability - mineral faucets, higher supply is cheaper.
2 - relative value of product - isk faucets, more isk means higher value.
3 - production process - easier, faster and simpler processes make for cheaper products.

No one of these things is responsible for the inflated prices. As I said, its the combination.

As it stands, the current prices for T1 ship hulls seems to be roughly as follows:

Frigates - 500k
Destroyers - 1.2m
Cruisers - 11m
Battlecruisers - 50m

It's seems right that Battleships should be in the 200m bracket.

Friends
Unkind Omen
Voyagers Inc.
#15 - 2013-04-09 04:24:00 UTC
There are several points that are ignored by OP in terms of ship "cost".

1) The biggest pain for any balance in EVE - insuarance. This monster makes all T1 hul prices even lower than they look like. And the biggest flaw is the unreasonable start insuarance of 40% which comes for free. Assuming this insuarance you should write:

Frigates - 300k
Destroyers - 720k
Cruisers - 6.6m
BC - 30m
BS - 120m

2) The second point are the fixed rig sizes. For some popular frig size rigs the price is around 1m ISK. For cruisers: 4m ISK For BS 18m ISK. This makes ships cost:

Frigates - 3.3m
Destroyers - 3.7m
Cruisers - 18.6m
BC - 42m
BS - 174m

3) The third part is the enourmous cost of T2 modules. This makes about 0.8 mil per module for a fully t2-fitted ship with guns costing even more. They however are in general the only kind of T2 modules that have a fair price progression as their size increases. The tanking modules such as shield extenders and plates are usually used as oversized so you can see MSE on frigs and LSE on cruisers so there is almost no cost progression here. And EWAR has no progression at all. The only EWAR that progresses is Capacitor drain/neut. With all this in mind:

Frigates(9 slots) - 10.5m
Destroyers(13 slots) - 14.1m
Cruisers(14 slots) - 29.8m
BC(16 slots) - 54.8m
BS(18 slots) - 188.4m

4) The last point is the pilot. Who wants to fly small ships without pumping them somehow? Almost no one. My estimation is that an average egg should add at least 20m to the cost of death. That is however only my opinion. Maybe some guys from Battleclinic or EVE kill may check what is exact amount of ISK lost from eggs per one ship loss.

With all this my conclusion is that lower 3 tiers of ship classes are pretty much blanaced. That is not the case for BC and BS. I also would not recommend any changes in ship build costs without changes to insuarance system.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-04-09 05:43:06 UTC
Unkind Omen wrote:
lots of stuff which is not relevant to what the op was asking for


also none of that is involved in build cost.

those are use costs and not entirely relevant anyways, as they are for the most part optional. what you feel is baseline necessary is not in fact the baseline necessary.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Unkind Omen
Voyagers Inc.
#17 - 2013-04-09 05:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Unkind Omen
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Unkind Omen wrote:
lots of stuff which is not relevant to what the op was asking for


also none of that is involved in build cost.

those are use costs and not entirely relevant anyways, as they are for the most part optional. what you feel is baseline necessary is not in fact the baseline necessary.


Can you really fly a ship without modules? Can you make this without a pilot for which you have to pay at the very least the clone renewal cost? The insuarance is also relevant because every time you loose your ship you are refunded with 40% of its "build cost" which makes the prices OP asks to rebalance even less relevant to ship efficiency balance.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-04-09 07:28:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
ZD LoveMe wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
Battleships will be an investment again. Begone the days of throw away front line ships.

There should be pride in warping Battleships into a fight. A commitment.

+1 CCP


You are not the pvp-guy, aren't you?

I am?... no i am!!! how many times can you lose a half a bill ship?

Quote:
Even if they all would cost as much as an Tier 3 BS does now (or even more) you can hardly speak of an "investment".


3-400mill + 100mill in fittings (faction hardeners, T2 guns, rigs) half a bill give or take. Normally 3-4 different fleet types, not including crazy new ones that come up of this change...

No Worries
Hakan MacTrew
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-04-09 18:02:24 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We adjust the build cost of each class of ships as we rebalance them.


I would suggest using Tier 2 battleships as the rough pricing of ships as Tier 3 prices are too high and thats before you add modules and rigs which is another 60mil -80mil on top of 300 mil.

Don't fly what you can't afford.

At the end of the day, if you want to nerf BSs back to the level of old tier 2 ships, I think there are a lot more people who would be put out than there are now. Buffing The lower tiers up to meet the tier 3s is exactly the way to go. Anything less would be ridiculous.

Friends