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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#101 - 2013-04-08 16:43:06 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
No one in their right mind is going to take out a hype fleet utilizing the rep bonus to a SOV fight.
No active rep ship is going to be taken to a SOV fight. Hyperion is supposed to be a solo ship that's gets nueted to death by the (OP) Amarr neuting BS.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#102 - 2013-04-08 16:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Quote:
What should the Hyperion be used for?


The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep(or sometimes tripple rep) tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection/application bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle.

Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful.

We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank.

As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.

@ccp_rise
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#103 - 2013-04-08 16:46:04 UTC
With 4 slots it can't be used even solo.

Not like solo Hype would currently be viable anyway.

I was really hoping for the resurrection of BS class. For them to become better options than ABCs, but I'll just fly the Proteus. It's just like Mega, but does everything better.

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#104 - 2013-04-08 16:47:51 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.


Current meta - 7.5% per level is too weak for pvp and pve.

Solution - buff it to 10%.

.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2013-04-08 16:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
What should the Hyperion be used for?


The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep(or sometimes tripple rep) tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection/application bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle.

Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful.

We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank.

As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.

Active rep bonuses should be cap reduction as well as rep amount.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Aurora Fatalis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2013-04-08 16:48:09 UTC
It seems like the Hyperion is having trouble finding its role. May I suggest it have a unique bonus among Battleships with the ability to fit a Warfare Link? Ever since the "I was there" trailer, I've thought it really looks the role of Command BS.

This would make it shine as a flagship for a small BS gang with limited RR, and help distinguish the Gallentean lineup from the Amarrian.

If Chribba told you not to trust him, would you?
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#107 - 2013-04-08 16:48:43 UTC
have you ever considered a dual range bonus plus a damage bonus?
since blasters don't get any real benefit from a single range bonus unlike other weapons platforms (due to the nature of split falloff/optimal) i'd propse something like this for a fleet hyperion

7.5% large blaster optimal and falloff per level
5% large hybrid damage

might make it a viable fleet choice

obviously a huge change but there you go, the hype is garbage atm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#108 - 2013-04-08 16:49:31 UTC
People are so scared of changes !

You can get back what the hyperion lost in the midslot with the low slot ; basically, only triple rep setup will really be hurt, but double rep setup will be almost as powerful and require a lot less cap.

And if utility was the problem, the Megathron will take this place.

Yet, the Hyperion will now replace the Megathron for fleet duties with lots of benefits (8 guns is good, and tier3 hp are good).

Megathron and Hyperion have their roles shaked up a bit, but all roles they had still exists, and I think they earn some capabilities in the end.

And for the Dominix, it's basically an integrated drone omnidirectional tracking link. Per se, it may be a bit weak in fact, as ship bonuses tend to be better than module bonuses most of the time, but that's still usefull for drones (and heavy drones have a use for this too), and that allow for sentry sniping a lot more easilly (ship bonuses are not stacking penalized).

Basically, it's a lot of changes, but I think they are mostly good. Just adapt.
Lord MuffloN
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-04-08 16:52:30 UTC
Upon reading the Amarr changes, how am I supposed to look at both line-ups and not instantly go "Amarr it is"?

They seem more competent at everything, and this kinda seem like an extinction level event for all Gallente battleships in larger fleets.
luredivino
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#110 - 2013-04-08 16:52:32 UTC
It seems like these are being balanced around use in nullsec and ignoring EVERYONE else.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2013-04-08 16:56:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
What should the Hyperion be used for?


The only thing the hyp ever seemed to do very well, was brawl at close range using a decent dual rep(or sometimes tripple rep) tank. It did it solo SOMETIMES, but usually the lack of utility high and lack of projection/application bonus made that difficult, so more often it was used in small gangs as a heavy brawler that would be supported by some other ships providing extra tackle so that it could focus on tank and gank. I think it was used at least as often for a shield tanked version that just focused on putting out damage, again with some support to provide supplemental tackle.

Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful.

We are talking (as we have been for a couple weeks) about finding a way to allow the solo pilot (since this version should be better for anyone with support) to have the same access to tackle that it had before, without giving up the increased tank.

As I said in the OP, we are in a tough spot with the active armor bonuses. We don't want to throw them out, they are fun to play when they work, and we have hopes that we will continue to bring them into viability with other changes. That said, in the mean time we don't want to overcorrect for their current position in the meta.


It would be pretty hard to over correct for how bad it is now. Just look at the fittings. Electrons with the tank its supposed to use? Really why? Guns that use cap, have no range, on a slow boat, with a tank that uses way too much cap etc etc. ASB made active shield tanking good again because its a capless solution and uses very few mods to get the job done. Do the same for active armor as many have been saying for a LONG time. AAR's should be capless. Period. If simply not willing to do that then lower the cap amount to be able to run the tank easily with Neutrons and a single cap booster. Then maybe it won't still completely suck. Also, perhaps 10% armor rep might be a better way to go. As it is, you have to run it with legion links to have much chance at all and drugs.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#112 - 2013-04-08 16:56:33 UTC
I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar.
BarryBonez
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#113 - 2013-04-08 16:57:15 UTC
I like the idea of being able to drag a Megathron along on a shield fleet, even though it will stick out like a sore thumb and probably be much less efficient than say, a Maelstrom.

The Dominix as a dedicated sentry boat makes me happy... but then I wonder about which applications it could see outside of PvE... If you take it on fleets and try to fight someone else, you have to sit still once you deploy them, which puts you at a huge disadvantage. So then you wonder when sitting still isnt a big deal... camping? Well your sig res is so ****** that you can't lock anything quick enough to fire a shot, so maybe you end up just assigning them to a frig or something. That may be effective, but doesn't sound very fun. I really don't know where I would use this ship... That being said, the split damage bonus sucked before and I'm glad that is gone.

The Hyperion always seemed really cool to me, but it was LOL expensive and so was never even on my radar as a possible ship for me to be flying. Active tanking with 8 hi slots sounds fun as hell, but 300mil for a hull does not.
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2013-04-08 16:57:32 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


Moving the slot layout this way would hopefully reinforce performance around its bonus for armor repping. It would likely have to run 2 injectors, as it did before, and give up a piece of tackle. Since its primary purpose was not to tackle, but to absorb damage and dish it out, the low seemed more useful.


? Really dude... Step away from the keyboard and stop taking these attacks at your bad proposed changes personally.
Claiming that the removal of a mid and the addition of a low further reinforces the Hyps bonuses is utter BS. The Ship is a Blaster ship, meaning that tackle + prop is pretty much mandatory unless you're flying in a fleet in which the REP bonus is completely worthless anyway and people will just take far more viable armor ships.


It's becoming very clear that you have no idea what you are talking about on this particular matter kill2.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-04-08 16:58:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
CCP Rise wrote:
I think its interesting how a lot of people feel the hyperion NEEDS 5 mids to be able to run an active tank - and at the same time a lot of people seem to think the megathron NEEDS its 7 lows back. And along with this, why do you need 5 mids to fit 2 cap injectors? I can see some solo pilots having a more difficult time staying cap stable while running enough tackle, but this is a common problem for battleships and it seems weird that the Hyperion would be exempt.

As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones.


Are you 'king ********? How did you get this job? If you can't web something, you can't even kill a bc, if you can't fit two cap boosters, you can't fit two reps, if you can't fit two reps you just die all the time. YOU NEED 5 MIDS! Seriously mate, what the hell do you think this ship is for? It's only use is 1-3 man roaming and weird shield setups. You speak about this ship like it's for gangs "not to tackle but dish out and tank damage" OR you could take a mega, get more dps, better tracking and bring two augorors for more tank. Honestly mate.

Basically tier 3's have ruined active tanking and given your idea of balancing them is making them go a poofteenth slower, I think you should take a long look at what you're doing with ships like the hype.

If you don't want active tanking to be viable, just remove the stupid bonuses and give them something useful, but don't pseudo nerf ships and then try to defend your blatant stupidity and lack of any forethought.

Biomass, that's my only advice.

Oh and one final question, will ships like the domi increase in price, or will the hype decrease in price? As your alleged tieracide has left attack bc's as way more expensive than the rest.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#116 - 2013-04-08 16:59:20 UTC
Taking away a low on the hyperion makes it a worse brawler, not better.

Right now it can fit cap booster, scram, web, prop, and a 2nd cap booster, which is needed to active tank it.

Dropping a mid forces it to either go propless, in which case it is massively outclassed by the maelstrom, or drop a cap booster, in which case it is hilariously vulnerable to neuts.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#117 - 2013-04-08 16:59:40 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar.


Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange?




.
Kami3k
The Lucky Bible Company
#118 - 2013-04-08 17:00:12 UTC
Askulf Joringer wrote:


? Really dude... Step away from the keyboard and stop taking these attacks at your bad proposed changes personally.
Claiming that the removal of a mid and the addition of a low further reinforces the Hyps bonuses is utter BS. The Ship is a Blaster ship, meaning that tackle + prop is pretty much mandatory unless you're flying in a fleet in which the REP bonus is completely worthless anyway and people will just take far more viable armor ships.


It's becoming very clear that you have no idea what you are talking about on this particular matter kill2.


And since armor repping still uses a large amount of cap, it nearly needs two boosters.

One booster will not be enough if it goes up against a neut ship.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-04-08 17:00:43 UTC
Roime wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I like the changes to the Mega and the Domi. I really hope the Domi changes transfer over to the Ishtar.


Hell no, do you realize that Domi lost 50% of it's dps, and got nothing in exchange?





how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2013-04-08 17:00:51 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Taking away a low on the hyperion makes it a worse brawler, not better.

Right now it can fit cap booster, scram, web, prop, and a 2nd cap booster, which is needed to active tank it.

Dropping a mid forces it to either go propless, in which case it is massively outclassed by the maelstrom, or drop a cap booster, in which case it is hilariously vulnerable to neuts.


Going to assume you meant mid :P