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What turret type for missioning?
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Keilateau Shakor
Shakor Freight and Mining Service
#21 - 2013-04-03 08:27:50 UTC
Tempest, Vargur - ACs
Maelstrom - ACs/Arty (arty mostly for Gone Berserk)

Dominix - Rails + Sentries
Megathron - Blasters + MWD (this is a nice hands-on fun)
Kronos - Rails (blasters work on some missions, too)
Hyperion - sort of a meh mission ship, Blasters work, as do ACs with a shield tank (i know, herecy and all that..)

Rokh - Rails + MJD + paper tank + balls

Apoc/Napoc/Geddon/Baddon - Pulses
Paladin - Pulses/Tachs

Mach - ACs and Nightmare - Tachs, but this and the rest was already covered, so..
Wendy Testeberger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-04-03 12:50:19 UTC
Thanks for all the input so far, especially the posts addressing the mechanics of using the alt in missions. I do have a multi monitor set up and play in windowed mode so it's not bad switching back and forth but I can see how it would be problematic otherwise to play 2 battleships.

It looks like projectiles is the clear winner here followed by whatever fits the ship you like. I like the Mach but every other projectile bonused ship out there just does not appeal to me. I'd even go so far as to say even the Amarr ships look better.

That being said I think I will just go hybrid and work my way towards the Vindi with stops along the way with a Navy Mega for when I don't feel like running 2 accts, and maybe an Ishtar I can set up with a small shield repper and sentries for when I want to 2 box it. Not sure if a small repper will be enough to keep aggro off the sentries and the missile boat but experimenting is part of the fun anyways.

Thanks again guys. All comments were appreciated.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#23 - 2013-04-03 14:09:57 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Fair warning, most of the Machariel's reputation is based on EFT warriors. If only they knew about falloff. If you're in Amarr space, the Nightmare has it beat. If you're in Caldari/Gallente space, the Kronos and Vindication have it beat.

Everyone raves about "damage selectability!!1!" but what they don't tell you is that there is no short-range ammo that does kinetic damage for projectiles. If you want Kinetic damage, you're using medium range ammo which comes with a large loss of DPS. All of the projectile ammo is split damage as well. There is no pure damage.

And also remember, at optimal+falloff range you do about 38% of your paper damage. So while EFT tells you you should be doing about 1100 DPS with 4.2+75km range and RF PP and all Vs, you'll actually only be doing about 400-450 at that range. Also remember that you wont have all Vs, and projectiles are heavily reliant on ship bonuses and having good falloff skills. The turrets themselves are pretty rubbish.


Phased Plasma works pretty well vs Guristas and Serps.

The whole point of the Mach is that you fly it actively, rather than just sitting there. It has a small sig for a battleship, and a very high speed. You can get yourself to 15-20km (at which range you're going to be doing 850-900 DPS with a well fitted and skilled Mach) very quickly in most missions. While you're at range you should be picking off the frigate rats.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-04-03 14:50:00 UTC
Wendy Testeberger wrote:
Thanks for all the input so far, especially the posts addressing the mechanics of using the alt in missions. I do have a multi monitor set up and play in windowed mode so it's not bad switching back and forth but I can see how it would be problematic otherwise to play 2 battleships.

It looks like projectiles is the clear winner here followed by whatever fits the ship you like. I like the Mach but every other projectile bonused ship out there just does not appeal to me. I'd even go so far as to say even the Amarr ships look better.

That being said I think I will just go hybrid and work my way towards the Vindi with stops along the way with a Navy Mega for when I don't feel like running 2 accts, and maybe an Ishtar I can set up with a small shield repper and sentries for when I want to 2 box it. Not sure if a small repper will be enough to keep aggro off the sentries and the missile boat but experimenting is part of the fun anyways.

Thanks again guys. All comments were appreciated.

Sentries don't draw that much aggro.
If you're going for hybrids, be mindfull of dmg types and where the rats weak to them can be found. Best of luck and fly safe.
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#25 - 2013-04-03 19:27:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kodama Ikari
Wendy Testeberger wrote:

That being said I think I will just go hybrid and work my way towards the Vindi with stops along the way with a Navy Mega for when I don't feel like running 2 accts, and maybe an Ishtar I can set up with a small shield repper and sentries for when I want to 2 box it. Not sure if a small repper will be enough to keep aggro off the sentries and the missile boat but experimenting is part of the fun anyways.


I have a vindi but using it in missions just feels wrong. Armor tanks feel flimsy when you're trying to jam in lots of damage mods, blasters feel wrong for missions or require selective refitting, and w/ rails you're wasting a web bonus and have to compensate for its pitiful 50km base lock range (69km with gang bonus is just sad). The ship has fantastic agility which again seems like a waste. However, that's just my opinion and many people say it works great.

Also, regarding sentry drones. If the other ship gets full aggro first and does plenty of damage, rats will never switch to the sentry drones of your ishtar, although you should probably be vigilant if your mission has respawns. Typically I micro both ships until small-stuff is gone, then assist drones to the missile ship and its very very easy. The drone ship itself will get some aggro though.


Paikis wrote:
Kodama Ikari wrote:
without a doubt the dumbest post I have written today.


I agree. Reasons or GTFO.


Sigh...You had basically two substantive reasons for why the mach wasn't that great. The first was that the mach's use of phased plasma is suboptimal against guristas and serpentis, and that the kronos/vindi are better. This is dumb because those ships are doing about half thermal damage anyway, so whatever advantage they have in this department is very very small. Your other reason was that the mach has low dps at one full falloff. This is dumb because the mach is extremely mobile, and will never spend any appreciable amount time killing every rat from 70km. In fact, being an autocannon boat with high falloff means the mach can do good dps at range and proceed to do great dps while closing to short range. It has the benefits of shortrange turrets without having to wait to get into range to do damage.

Your post was dumb because you cited the mach's greatest strengths and called them weaknesses, and then produced some gems like (and I'm paraphrasing) "EFT warriors don't know about falloff" and "projectiles rely on lvl 5 skills more than other weapons," and "EFT warrios use LVL V's for the mach but their actual skills for other ships."

Some first-hand PI tips
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#26 - 2013-04-03 20:48:58 UTC
Kodama Ikari wrote:
Sigh...You had basically two substantive reasons for why the mach wasn't that great. The first was that the mach's use of phased plasma is suboptimal against guristas and serpentis, and that the kronos/vindi are better. This is dumb because those ships are doing about half thermal damage anyway, so whatever advantage they have in this department is very very small. Your other reason was that the mach has low dps at one full falloff. This is dumb because the mach is extremely mobile, and will never spend any appreciable amount time killing every rat from 70km. In fact, being an autocannon boat with high falloff means the mach can do good dps at range and proceed to do great dps while closing to short range. It has the benefits of shortrange turrets without having to wait to get into range to do damage.

Your post was dumb because you cited the mach's greatest strengths and called them weaknesses, and then produced some gems like (and I'm paraphrasing) "EFT warriors don't know about falloff" and "projectiles rely on lvl 5 skills more than other weapons," and "EFT warrios use LVL V's for the mach but their actual skills for other ships."


My stance on mission ships has always been that there are many ships that will work quite well, and anyone telling you that a particular ship is 'The Best' is probably trying to sell you one.

Guristas and Serpentis are both kin/therm weak. This is exactly the damage type that hybrids do, so with hybrids, you're targeting both primary and secondary holes, but mostly (65%) you're targetting kinetic. With PP, you're targeting the second hole (primary for serps), with some very minor damage in the kinetic hole. Also, if you're using a Vindicator, you can slap rails on and be hitting right out to lock range with no problem and no damage reduction due to falloff.

As for your comments about falloff, you're mostly right, but you're also ignoring (or missing) my point. The Machariel is mobile, and can close to a good range quite nicely. But you're always going to be losing some damage to falloff, because your guns simply wont be able to track at your optimal range of about 3 feet from your windows. My point was that you're NEVER going to be getting the paper DPS. I'm not saying your applied DPS is horrible, just that it is not ever going to be the 1100 that EFT tells you it is.
Lynkon Lawg
Second Six Corporation
#27 - 2013-04-03 22:20:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lynkon Lawg
If you are training up drones, I HIGHLY recommend getting to Tech II Sentries and training up a Dominix pilot. You can warp in behind your main, drop a flight of sentries, set them to "assist" your main, and anything the main fires on, or TPs, or neuts, or webs, gets fired on by the sentries. It's makes lvl4s cake when you have an extra 600-800 DPS behind you.

There are all kinds of little tricks with the sentries as well. For instance, if your Domi has the standard short lock range, and you push your drone control range out past it, the sentries will attack your main's target out to that control range, even if the domi couldn't lock that far. It makes that 130+km range of kinetic sentries really useful (you can wipe out the initial room of World's Collide without moving). Also, a full rack of Neutron blasters IIs, and a flight of thermal sentries will give you around 1200dps at short range. VERY effective for Angels Extravaganza.
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