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[Odyssey] T1 Cruiser Polish Pass

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Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-03-28 10:01:27 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

We are also giving some moderate improvements to the two lowest performing attack cruisers, the Stabber and Omen.



Omen:
-600,000 Mass

Stabber:
Change falloff bonus from the 7.5% per level to the standard 10% per level
+25m3 Dronebay and 25mbit bandwidth




Was the omen change a typo, or blaring oversight?

Stabber changes: +25% to falloff bonus (at cruiser 5), + a dronebay, with 5 light drones

Omen changes: -5% to ship mass. Period. Not 5% per level or anything, just 5% mass reduction.



that is not a BONUS. its a plain direct reduction of the base mass. Its simply fact that omen was nto as bad as the stabber therefore it does nto need So much help.


I know it's not a bonus, but that IS the change made. just a 5% mass reduction. If it's underperforming, I don't get the feeling such an insignificant change is going to do that much for it.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-03-28 10:34:59 UTC
I really hope that Fozzie can squeeze a bit more capacitor for the Omen into these changes..
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2013-03-28 10:49:25 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

We are also giving some moderate improvements to the two lowest performing attack cruisers, the Stabber and Omen.



Omen:
-600,000 Mass

Stabber:
Change falloff bonus from the 7.5% per level to the standard 10% per level
+25m3 Dronebay and 25mbit bandwidth




Was the omen change a typo, or blaring oversight?

Stabber changes: +25% to falloff bonus (at cruiser 5), + a dronebay, with 5 light drones

Omen changes: -5% to ship mass. Period. Not 5% per level or anything, just 5% mass reduction.



that is not a BONUS. its a plain direct reduction of the base mass. Its simply fact that omen was nto as bad as the stabber therefore it does nto need So much help.


I know it's not a bonus, but that IS the change made. just a 5% mass reduction. If it's underperforming, I don't get the feeling such an insignificant change is going to do that much for it.


makes significant difference in MWD speed. THere is a reason why Policarbons were once considered the most overpowered equipment to ever be equiped in an EVE ship... they used to give 5% mass reduction...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Randy Wray
Warcrows
Sedition.
#64 - 2013-03-28 12:46:46 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
I don't agree with the knee jerk tendency to add drone bays to all ships.

You might as well consider equipping every ship with hardpoints for both turrets and launchers, too. And, you might as well give all ships the same number of slots, same CPU/PG, etc. That would certainly make balancing a lot easier.

Tiericide is one thing; homogeneous ships are another - and bad - thing.

If you want to buff the Stab, then consider doing it some other and more unique way, such as a bit more speed.

I'd like to hear your argument on how more speed helps the stabber perform better.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray
Alek Row
Silent Step
#65 - 2013-03-28 12:49:39 UTC
So... to have the old stabber at it's max potential you would need to have good gun skills and good missile skills.
And with the new one you now also need good drone skills. Does it ring a bell?

No other way to increase stabber damage without the drones?
I appreciate the buff, honestly I do, but I kinda liked the fact that the stabber did not had drones.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#66 - 2013-03-28 13:20:05 UTC
Stabber:

High:
425mm AC II x 4
LML II x 2
Mid:
Experimental MWD
LSE II
Small Cap Booster II
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
Gyro II x 3
TE II
Rigs:
Shield Extender x 3

With a flight of warriors I would get between 419 and 496 DPS overheated- Barrage vs Faction ammo. The Stabber is going to be win sauce.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2013-03-28 14:30:49 UTC
Alek Row wrote:
So... to have the old stabber at it's max potential you would need to have good gun skills and good missile skills.
And with the new one you now also need good drone skills. Does it ring a bell?

No other way to increase stabber damage without the drones?
I appreciate the buff, honestly I do, but I kinda liked the fact that the stabber did not had drones.





You will have to learn drones anyway. If by the time this exapnsion arrives you have not trained drones yet your training pla is very wrong.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-03-28 15:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Stabber:

High:
425mm AC II x 4
LML II x 2
Mid:
Experimental MWD
LSE II
Small Cap Booster II
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
Gyro II x 3
TE II
Rigs:
Shield Extender x 3

With a flight of warriors I would get between 419 and 496 DPS overheated- Barrage vs Faction ammo. The Stabber is going to be win sauce.


At what range exactly do you get that dps? 2k, that's what. How about at 20k after the TE nerf, answer is sweet f u ck all. The stabber simply isn't agile or fast enough to stop yourself getting caught by a thorax/vexor, and when you do you diaf, because your tickle like dps projection has left them with ample hp left.

Minmatar ships are no longer being given the agility to actually kite (you need agility as much as speed), combined with the TE nerf which will hit minmatar most of all, it's a nail in the coffin.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#69 - 2013-03-28 15:24:29 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Stabber:

High:
425mm AC II x 4
LML II x 2
Mid:
Experimental MWD
LSE II
Small Cap Booster II
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
Gyro II x 3
TE II
Rigs:
Shield Extender x 3

With a flight of warriors I would get between 419 and 496 DPS overheated- Barrage vs Faction ammo. The Stabber is going to be win sauce.


At what range exactly do you get that dps? 2k, that's what. How about at 20k after the TE nerf, answer is sweet f u ck all.


No way man eft says 496 dps and thats what I get!
Ali Aras
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#70 - 2013-03-28 15:58:08 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
I really hope drone boats are given something special, something that really makes them feel like drone boats as opposed to "ships with drones", because now everyone and their dog has them.

Drone ships have massive bays and bandwidth, meaning that you can do more damage with drones and carry more drones for when yours get smartbombed or left at gates. Looking at the Vexor, when I go out roaming, I can pack: 1 flight light drones (frigates!), 1 flight medium drones (dps!), 1 flight light armor drones (good when small gang roaming in shield), with 25 m^3 free space (an extra flight of light drones? Light ecm drones?). That's a lot of drones. If I wanted to, I could instead use three sentry drones (with two spares in bay). I've seen spidertanking sentry vexors, and they're stupid effective.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2013-03-28 16:01:34 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Stabber:

High:
425mm AC II x 4
LML II x 2
Mid:
Experimental MWD
LSE II
Small Cap Booster II
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
Gyro II x 3
TE II
Rigs:
Shield Extender x 3

With a flight of warriors I would get between 419 and 496 DPS overheated- Barrage vs Faction ammo. The Stabber is going to be win sauce.


At what range exactly do you get that dps? 2k, that's what. How about at 20k after the TE nerf, answer is sweet f u ck all. The stabber simply isn't agile or fast enough to stop yourself getting caught by a thorax/vexor, and when you do you diaf, because your tickle like dps projection has left them with ample hp left.

Minmatar ships are no longer being given the agility to actually kite (you need agility as much as speed), combined with the TE nerf which will hit minmatar most of all, it's a nail in the coffin.


And why in hell they need to do all that damage at that range? For god's sake Use the brain. You can freely disengage from any other cruiser, except faction ones. That means that staying outside tackle range is NOT the issue.

You can approach a bit more. But then you will say.. BUT THEN THE ENEMY WILL #@!*(#!@*#!@ me. NO, because the enemy lost a bit of range as well! Yes you lost a tiny bit more, but that because the exact intention was to nerf a tiny bit that


STOP BEING OVERREACTIVE! This nerf is only large for battleships fielding large arties.


"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#72 - 2013-03-28 16:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Akturous wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Stabber:

High:
425mm AC II x 4
LML II x 2
Mid:
Experimental MWD
LSE II
Small Cap Booster II
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
Gyro II x 3
TE II
Rigs:
Shield Extender x 3

With a flight of warriors I would get between 419 and 496 DPS overheated- Barrage vs Faction ammo. The Stabber is going to be win sauce.


At what range exactly do you get that dps? 2k, that's what. How about at 20k after the TE nerf, answer is sweet f u ck all. The stabber simply isn't agile or fast enough to stop yourself getting caught by a thorax/vexor, and when you do you diaf, because your tickle like dps projection has left them with ample hp left.

Minmatar ships are no longer being given the agility to actually kite (you need agility as much as speed), combined with the TE nerf which will hit minmatar most of all, it's a nail in the coffin.


The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

496 DPS :
80 DPS from Drones. 37 DPS from light missiles with 43km range. 379 DPS from Faction Ammo. You do 60% of your DPS at 100% falloff - so 344 DPS at 23 km. (227 + 80 + 37)

Personally I would run with Barrage which would give you ~300 DPS at 35km.

The Stabber gains an additional 12.5% falloff even as the TE2 loses 10% - so it will be close to a wash with the ship.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#73 - 2013-03-28 16:27:58 UTC
Still, going to rock z ham-bellicose with javz and drones over THIS STABBA. However, I do find it amusing how much worse the Vagabond is looking now.

Hmm. Interesting. I may try out a armor Stabber if the proposed changes goes threw.


- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-03-28 16:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Stabber:

High:
425mm AC II x 4
LML II x 2
Mid:
Experimental MWD
LSE II
Small Cap Booster II
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
Gyro II x 3
TE II
Rigs:
Shield Extender x 3

With a flight of warriors I would get between 419 and 496 DPS overheated- Barrage vs Faction ammo. The Stabber is going to be win sauce.


At what range exactly do you get that dps? 2k, that's what. How about at 20k after the TE nerf, answer is sweet f u ck all. The stabber simply isn't agile or fast enough to stop yourself getting caught by a thorax/vexor, and when you do you diaf, because your tickle like dps projection has left them with ample hp left.

Minmatar ships are no longer being given the agility to actually kite (you need agility as much as speed), combined with the TE nerf which will hit minmatar most of all, it's a nail in the coffin.


And why in hell they need to do all that damage at that range? For god's sake Use the brain. You can freely disengage from any other cruiser, except faction ones. That means that staying outside tackle range is NOT the issue.

You can approach a bit more. But then you will say.. BUT THEN THE ENEMY WILL #@!*(#!@*#!@ me. NO, because the enemy lost a bit of range as well! Yes you lost a tiny bit more, but that because the exact intention was to nerf a tiny bit that


STOP BEING OVERREACTIVE! This nerf is only large for battleships fielding large arties.




In what magical land do you live in where people don't sling shot? If your fighting a complete moron who just tries to approach all day yes, but either you'll lose point and will never kill anything, or you'll die, they're your options. Who said anything about staying outside tackle range? You can't keep them there if your outside tackle range.

In addition to this your stuck to using one damage type (well two I suppose), in barrage. There's a good reason the stabber is so unpopular.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#75 - 2013-03-28 16:57:50 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Stabber:

High:
425mm AC II x 4
LML II x 2
Mid:
Experimental MWD
LSE II
Small Cap Booster II
Warp Disruptor II
Low:
Gyro II x 3
TE II
Rigs:
Shield Extender x 3

With a flight of warriors I would get between 419 and 496 DPS overheated- Barrage vs Faction ammo. The Stabber is going to be win sauce.


At what range exactly do you get that dps? 2k, that's what. How about at 20k after the TE nerf, answer is sweet f u ck all. The stabber simply isn't agile or fast enough to stop yourself getting caught by a thorax/vexor, and when you do you diaf, because your tickle like dps projection has left them with ample hp left.

Minmatar ships are no longer being given the agility to actually kite (you need agility as much as speed), combined with the TE nerf which will hit minmatar most of all, it's a nail in the coffin.


And why in hell they need to do all that damage at that range? For god's sake Use the brain. You can freely disengage from any other cruiser, except faction ones. That means that staying outside tackle range is NOT the issue.

You can approach a bit more. But then you will say.. BUT THEN THE ENEMY WILL #@!*(#!@*#!@ me. NO, because the enemy lost a bit of range as well! Yes you lost a tiny bit more, but that because the exact intention was to nerf a tiny bit that


STOP BEING OVERREACTIVE! This nerf is only large for battleships fielding large arties.




In what magical land do you live in where people don't sling shot? If your fighting a complete moron who just tries to approach all day yes, but either you'll lose point and will never kill anything, or you'll die, they're your options. Who said anything about staying outside tackle range? You can't keep them there if your outside tackle range.

In addition to this your stuck to using one damage type (well two I suppose), in barrage. There's a good reason the stabber is so unpopular.


This is one of the few ships that won't be affected by the TE nerf. If you're upset about it this thread isn't the place to effectively make your point.

As far as damage type your missiles (if you choose to pack some) and now your drones can be whatever damage type you prefer.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Alek Row
Silent Step
#76 - 2013-03-28 17:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alek Row
Kagura Nikon wrote:

You will have to learn drones anyway. If by the time this exapnsion arrives you have not trained drones yet your training pla is very wrong.


Not talking about me and that's not the point.
Nice buff anyway, I'll take it.
Frost 3
Sub--Zero
#77 - 2013-03-28 17:14:55 UTC
Quote:
Augoror:
-2.5km Lock Range
-85 Scan Resolution
-1 Sensor Strength

Exequror:
-70 Scan Resolution
-1 Sensor Strength

Osprey:
-2.5km Lock Range
-70 Scan Resolution
-1 Sensor Strength

Scythe:
-85 Scan Resolution
-1 Sensor Strength


why the hit to logi's? seems like a unneeded change
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#78 - 2013-03-28 22:08:27 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Alek Row wrote:
So... to have the old stabber at it's max potential you would need to have good gun skills and good missile skills.
And with the new one you now also need good drone skills. Does it ring a bell?

You will have to learn drones anyway. If by the time this exapnsion arrives you have not trained drones yet your training pla is very wrong.

This is one of my (few) complaints with the rebalancing of ships.

I think that cruisers and frigates should mostly be single weapon ships, allowing newer players to more quickly become max proficient with any given ship. New players should not need to train drones, unless they want to fly drone-specific ships, just as new players should not need to train both guns and missiles, or both shield and armor tanking. There are already too many skills that new players are asked to train - cross-training weapons just makes it a lot worse.

Leave the mixed weapon systems for the larger ships, BCs and up.

And, just for the record, I do have all of the weapon skills trained up to T2, with specialization skills to level 4 across the board, in guns (projectiles, hybrids and lasers), missiles, and drones. I'm also racially cross-trained to fly all of the T1 cruisers at level 5. So, I'm not speaking from any particular personal bias towards/against one weapon system or another, or one ship vs another. But, I do know how long it took to train up all of those skills, too. :)
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#79 - 2013-03-28 22:21:48 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
I'd like to hear your argument on how more speed helps the stabber perform better.

A faster Stabber would have superior range control and be better able to speed tank incoming damage. With the proposed nerfs to TEs, this is significant. A faster Stabber can also be used more effectively as a heavy tackler.

Combat isn't just about DPS, you know. It also positioning and maneuverability. We don't need every ship in the game to be a toe-to-toe brawler, and we don't really need the Stabber to become another Thorax.

But, that's just my opinion.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#80 - 2013-03-28 23:23:55 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
I'd like to hear your argument on how more speed helps the stabber perform better.

A faster Stabber would have superior range control and be better able to speed tank incoming damage. With the proposed nerfs to TEs, this is significant. A faster Stabber can also be used more effectively as a heavy tackler.

It already have the best range control of all cruisers (though maybe the Scythe NI will be better) ; and if you think about it carefully, the Stabber get a falloff bonus buff, countering the TE nerf. Add the drones to it, and I really don't know what you can ask on top of all this.