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[Odyssey] Module Rebalancing Part One: RSBs and TEs

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Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#541 - 2013-03-27 20:04:32 UTC
I want to know what Kovorix thinks about this.

e: If he still plays this game :\
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#542 - 2013-03-27 20:08:36 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
I want to know what Kovorix thinks about this.

e: If he still plays this game :\


You know when a goon is saying a particular change makes small gang pvp too hard that something is really ****** up about said change
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#543 - 2013-03-27 20:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Also Grath you can suck mah dilz with your "It's only a three percent decrease in DPS" bullshit. I just compared my blaster Proteus fit to a version using T1 TEs in EFT and it's a 20% decrease in applied DPS at 24km using Null. On a ship that only hits for 263 dps at 24km as it is.

So yeah, the change does exactly what I was saying it would to kiting blaster cruisers-- totally eviscerates a ship that did mediocre damage to begin with. How ships like this are "problematic" under current mechanics is beyond me. If you and Kil2 have a problem with the Talos (which is more understandable) then take it up with that hull. I'd prefer it if you'd leave the Deimos, Proteus, and Vigilant useable as shield ships.
Dead All Capitals
Ein Kaefig voller Helden.
Goonswarm Federation
#544 - 2013-03-27 20:14:30 UTC
Nerf Goons
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#545 - 2013-03-27 20:15:10 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Also Grath you can suck mah dilz with your "It's only a three percent decrease in DPS" bullshit. I just compared my blaster Proteus fit to a version using T1 TEs in EFT and it's a 20% decrease in applied DPS at 24km using Null. On a ship that only hits for 263 dps at 24km as it is.

So yeah, the change does exactly what I was saying it would to kiting blaster cruisers-- totally eviscerates a ship that did mediocre damage to begin with. How ships like this are "problematic" under current mechanics is beyond me. If you and Kil2 have a problem with the Talos (which is more understandable) then take it up with that hull. I'd prefer it if you'd leave the Deimos, Proteus, and Vigilant useable as shield ships.


Its even worse on amarr ships
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#546 - 2013-03-27 20:15:48 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ok. Pay attention people. We have people complaining this is a heavy nerf to Amarr, other saying it will kill blasters, others saying it hits minmatar much more massively. Match this to the whining of heavy missile nerf and.... EVERYONE IS COMPLAINING


That pretty much means its balanced! Everyone is equally unhappy!

Congratulations CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise!


Proteus-boosted triple-TD Caracals for the State!
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#547 - 2013-03-27 20:19:54 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Also Grath you can suck mah dilz with your "It's only a three percent decrease in DPS" bullshit. I just compared my blaster Proteus fit to a version using T1 TEs in EFT and it's a 20% decrease in applied DPS at 24km using Null. On a ship that only hits for 263 dps at 24km as it is.

So yeah, the change does exactly what I was saying it would to kiting blaster cruisers-- totally eviscerates a ship that did mediocre damage to begin with. How ships like this are "problematic" under current mechanics is beyond me. If you and Kil2 have a problem with the Talos (which is more understandable) then take it up with that hull. I'd prefer it if you'd leave the Deimos, Proteus, and Vigilant useable as shield ships.


Its even worse on amarr ships


Ironically it's an indirect buff to Minmatar ships, since their overall longer range means a Cynabal fit only loses ~20 DPS at 24km. Good thing all these publords are so excited about them "nerfing Winmatar" lol.
Violet Winters
I HAVE THE POWER OF GOD AND ANIME ON MY SIDE
Blue Eyes and Exodia Toon Duelist Kingdom Duelers
#548 - 2013-03-27 20:31:27 UTC
nooooooo my precious machurial!!!!

CEO - Anglic Eclipse.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#549 - 2013-03-27 20:32:05 UTC
On a hurricane it's also about 22% lost dps at 20-25km. The affect of this nerf will be more and more people not flying tier 2 bc's in favor of t3 bc's, who will feel the effects of this nerf far less at kiting ranges. It's also worth asking people like Grath Telkin, who claims that 4km isn't a big deal about why do people:

a. not fit t1 tracking enhancers then, given that they have the same stats as the new proposed t2 te's
b. why do people spend isk on faction mods that only provide small dps changes, far less then 22%.
c. why do people train up skills that offer only 2% increases to falloff/optimal/tracking for 2 weeks at a time
d. how much did you spent on hardwirings and faction/officer mods on your titan, to increase the range/dps/tracking?

The answer is simple. The changes and benefits these provide are huge. They are not small, they are not irrelevant and a te nerf, like all of the above, will have a very serious impact on the way the game is played and the way that ships can be handled.
DR BiCarbonate
Doomriders.
#550 - 2013-03-27 20:37:31 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I thought the stabber fit linked about would be an interesting point of reference for the TE changes so I was just fiddling with it a little bit and the results are at the bottom. I think its likely that you will feel this effect (usually between a 5% and 15% Im guessing) at typical engagement ranges for kiting ships like the stabber or the talos - but it seems unlikely that the role of the ship will be compromised to an extent that they would be abandoned. More likely, there will just be some extra room for ships like armor harb or armor brutix to have a role.

The fundamental ability to engage large groups with small ones won't change at all. It may take slightly more time to wear down ships that you isolate, depending on relative ranges, and there may be slightly more flexibility for tackling frigs to be on grid for longer, but overall this change shouldn't shift the meta much.

[Stabber, kiter]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction
50W Infectious Power System Malfunction

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


BARRAGE 6.5% dps drop at 20k
  • 3.51+37.2 with the old TE 187dps@20km
  • 3.23+32 with new TE 175dps@20km

    • RF EMP - 18% dps drop at 20km
  • 1.75+24.8 with old TE 170dps@20km
  • 1.61+21.3 with new TE 140dps@20km


    • oh lawd.... what the ****, i was actually excited when you said you got a job at ccp, then i saw this. are you not allowed to fit oversize tank on ships over there at ccp?
    medium shield extender...? hope thats a typo, or you should probably quit eve. sorry man. **** fit is ****.

    looks like fozzie abandoned his own thread too, i should probably join PL, would make this nerf less ****?

    Sorry for all the hate, but these 'rebalancing' updates are ******* horrid.
    Grath Telkin
    Amok.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #551 - 2013-03-27 20:46:32 UTC
    Lelob wrote:
    On a hurricane it's also about 22% lost dps at 20-25km. The affect of this nerf will be more and more people not flying tier 2 bc's in favor of t3 bc's, who will feel the effects of this nerf far less at kiting ranges. It's also worth asking people like Grath Telkin, who claims that 4km isn't a big deal about why do people:

    a. not fit t1 tracking enhancers then, given that they have the same stats as the new proposed t2 te's
    b. why do people spend isk on faction mods that only provide small dps changes, far less then 22%.
    c. why do people train up skills that offer only 2% increases to falloff/optimal/tracking for 2 weeks at a time
    d. how much did you spent on hardwirings and faction/officer mods on your titan, to increase the range/dps/tracking?

    The answer is simple. The changes and benefits these provide are huge. They are not small, they are not irrelevant and a te nerf, like all of the above, will have a very serious impact on the way the game is played and the way that ships can be handled.



    3km change in fall off, better unplug the servers, games over man, no hope left.

    Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
    LeMorted'Authur
    KarmaFleet
    Goonswarm Federation
    #552 - 2013-03-27 20:46:49 UTC
    What this post needs is a " you are a ******" or "worst idea in the eve". one can push it and everyone sees that this post is a very bad change or suggestion for eve.

    When I was a nooblet, we noobs could fit a fleet of rifters and place all different kinds of ecm in the mids, each ship a different kind. so eight of us noobs would have 2 sensor dampeners, 2 ecm, 2 tracking, 2 resebos. We go out and have fun. Force multipliers are important to eve and combat because some people hate large blob fights.

    Kiting ships are sp equal kind of ships, yes a pilot who has the most sp has the better ship if in a equal fit, but most pilots are noobs in these kinds of ships so kiting is a very hard tactic of unskilled pilots to use, and by unskilled i am referring to the pilots skill of thinking and using a mouse, not ccp character skills.

    These noob fleets I was once apart of is the reason why i am in eve still they were fun and I enjoyed eve never more than then.

    Flying it like you stole it, because half of the others in eve have. 
    Ganthrithor
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #553 - 2013-03-27 20:48:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
    Here's a thing: Three kiting cruisers using long range ammo, compared:

    http://i.imgur.com/TSSEdNe.jpg

    The two curves for each ship are current fit (T2 TE) vs post-nerf (simulated by substituting T2 TEs for T1).

    The green bar represents typical kiting ranges (20km at the inboard, 36km (overheated faction point range) at the outboard).

    Look how hard this nerf fucks blaster ships. Compared to any other turret setup. It's ridiculous. Scorch users lose nothing, AC fits lose ~6% dps, Heavy Neutrons + Null lose 20%... on the weapon system that did the least damage within this range envelope to begin with. The Proteus is worse off under current mechanics ANYWHERE outside 21km, and this nerf only increases the gap.

    Keep in mind that the engagement envelope is a cold hard fact that is not negotiable-- any closer and you start straying into overheated web range (and exploding). Any farther and you lose points on your target and they just sort of wander off.

    edit: None of those are outlandish / gimmick fits either. They're all things I currently have in my hangar and have flown personally. None of them were specially-setup for this comparison and each represents what I think is the "best" platform for its weapon type (although in the case of the Proteus it's nearly identical to the Deimos and Vigilant in terms of damage projection).
    Lin Fatale
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #554 - 2013-03-27 20:58:25 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    I understand the allure of hyperbole related to the death of the small gang versus the blob - but this change should definitely be considered in the context of a game where a gang with some standard cruisers and BCs with a couple skirmish links can engage at almost any ratio of friend to foe.

    Its fun to engage outnumbered (I've heard), but expecting a few extremely strong mods to do a large portion of the work for you seems a bit over the top.

    I like writing posts but I'm not sure its doing any good Ugh



    dont focus on the "we really have to fix a module, just because its not 100% ballanced"

    focus on the result
    and the result will be, that it will be harder for smaller groups to engage larger groups
    which will lead to less fights, force blops

    it wont fix armor and any attempt to nerf shild kiting and hope ppl will roam with armor ships will fail

    the priority should be, fix things which are really broken
    like the "here comes the daily naga fleet" or I can move my cap fleet around eve in 3 minutes

    after that you can play around with little things like TE
    Vaju Enki
    Secular Wisdom
    #555 - 2013-03-27 20:58:40 UTC
    Again, keep going strong with the great balance changes, you guys are making EvE a much better game. Players will actually use ships other than the few boring nano/shield ones.

    The nano facerollers tears are normal, the some thing happend with the speed nerf a few years ago, the facerollers don't like balance. Just ignore them, they are bias as hell.

    The Tears Must Flow
    Lelob
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #556 - 2013-03-27 21:00:41 UTC
    Grath Telkin wrote:
    Lelob wrote:
    On a hurricane it's also about 22% lost dps at 20-25km. The affect of this nerf will be more and more people not flying tier 2 bc's in favor of t3 bc's, who will feel the effects of this nerf far less at kiting ranges. It's also worth asking people like Grath Telkin, who claims that 4km isn't a big deal about why do people:

    a. not fit t1 tracking enhancers then, given that they have the same stats as the new proposed t2 te's
    b. why do people spend isk on faction mods that only provide small dps changes, far less then 22%.
    c. why do people train up skills that offer only 2% increases to falloff/optimal/tracking for 2 weeks at a time
    d. how much did you spent on hardwirings and faction/officer mods on your titan, to increase the range/dps/tracking?

    The answer is simple. The changes and benefits these provide are huge. They are not small, they are not irrelevant and a te nerf, like all of the above, will have a very serious impact on the way the game is played and the way that ships can be handled.



    3km change in fall off, better unplug the servers, games over man, no hope left.


    How much did you spent on your titan hardwirings? Big smile
    Ganthrithor
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #557 - 2013-03-27 21:00:51 UTC
    Vaju Enki wrote:
    Again, keep going strong with the great balance changes, you guys are making EvE a much better game. Players will actually use ships other than the few boring nano/shield ones.

    The nano facerollers tears are normal, the some thing happend with the speed nerf a few years ago, the facerollers don't like balance. Just ignore them, they are bias as hell.


    Yeah if only we could all honoure-duel on the 4-4 undock in our active tanked Vindicators like you no doubt do.
    Roime
    Mea Culpa.
    Shadow Cartel
    #558 - 2013-03-27 21:04:06 UTC
    Ganthrithor wrote:
    Here's a thing: Three kiting cruisers using long range ammo, compared:

    http://i.imgur.com/TSSEdNe.jpg

    The two curves for each ship are current fit (T2 TE) vs post-nerf (simulated by substituting T2 TEs for T1).

    The green bar represents typical kiting ranges (20km at the inboard, 36km (overheated faction point range) at the outboard).

    Look how hard this nerf fucks blaster ships. Compared to any other turret setup. It's ridiculous. Scorch users lose nothing, AC fits lose ~6% dps, Heavy Neutrons + Null lose 20%... on the weapon system that did the least damage within this range envelope to begin with. The Proteus is worse off under current mechanics ANYWHERE outside 21km, and this nerf only increases the gap.

    Keep in mind that the engagement envelope is a cold hard fact that is not negotiable-- any closer and you start straying into overheated web range (and exploding). Any farther and you lose points on your target and they just sort of wander off.


    Kiting Proteus, that's cool. You fly it like the 1600mm plate torp Vaga?

    .
    LeMorted'Authur
    KarmaFleet
    Goonswarm Federation
    #559 - 2013-03-27 21:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: LeMorted'Authur
    Lin Fatale wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    I understand the allure of hyperbole related to the death of the small gang versus the blob - but this change should definitely be considered in the context of a game where a gang with some standard cruisers and BCs with a couple skirmish links can engage at almost any ratio of friend to foe.

    Its fun to engage outnumbered (I've heard), but expecting a few extremely strong mods to do a large portion of the work for you seems a bit over the top.

    I like writing posts but I'm not sure its doing any good Ugh



    dont focus on the "we really have to fix a module, just because its not 100% ballanced"

    focus on the result
    and the result will be, that it will be harder for smaller groups to engage larger groups
    which will lead to less fights, force blops

    it wont fix armor and any attempt to nerf shild kiting and hope ppl will roam with armor ships will fail

    the priority should be, fix things which are really broken
    like the "here comes the daily naga fleet" or I can move my cap fleet around eve in 3 minutes

    after that you can play around with little things like TE



    Armor ships are fine as they are used, to defend home systems. Because of the cap requirements of armor ships (GAL/AMR) Most people learned that armor in large numbers and roaming is not fun because when a fleet engages is not determined by its best use of cap. So people use armor ships to defend their wh's and low/null sec systems when they are on the defensive. Where speed to them does not matter or needed. I agree CCP needs to look not at the balance of a modules but how it will be applied to eve universe as a whole. This is also very bad for small gangs, I heard someone referring to small gangs now as being under a hundred; I was like a hundred is a small gang. He replied yes.

    Stop eve pvp dying to the blobs and keep some solo pvp.

    Flying it like you stole it, because half of the others in eve have. 
    Ganthrithor
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #560 - 2013-03-27 21:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
    Roime wrote:
    Ganthrithor wrote:
    Here's a thing: Three kiting cruisers using long range ammo, compared:

    http://i.imgur.com/TSSEdNe.jpg

    The two curves for each ship are current fit (T2 TE) vs post-nerf (simulated by substituting T2 TEs for T1).

    The green bar represents typical kiting ranges (20km at the inboard, 36km (overheated faction point range) at the outboard).

    Look how hard this nerf fucks blaster ships. Compared to any other turret setup. It's ridiculous. Scorch users lose nothing, AC fits lose ~6% dps, Heavy Neutrons + Null lose 20%... on the weapon system that did the least damage within this range envelope to begin with. The Proteus is worse off under current mechanics ANYWHERE outside 21km, and this nerf only increases the gap.

    Keep in mind that the engagement envelope is a cold hard fact that is not negotiable-- any closer and you start straying into overheated web range (and exploding). Any farther and you lose points on your target and they just sort of wander off.


    Kiting Proteus, that's cool. You fly it like the 1600mm plate torp Vaga?



    Why don't you come find out?

    With bonuses it goes almost 3km/s, aligns in 5.5 seconds with the MWD on and it scrams to 30km with heat. Feel free to tell me all about how this makes it a terrible kiting ship.