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Dev Blog: The Battle for Caldari Prime

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Vikarion
Doomheim
#301 - 2013-03-22 23:47:36 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Short of time-travel, how do you propose finding out that the event is pre-determined to boycott it? I mean, there were clues on this occasion like the leaked titan wreck in Dust, but until things kicked off it wasn't totally clear just how one-sidedly things had been arranged.

Unfortunately what I'd expect is not that there will be some deliberate attempt at an orchestrated boycott, but that people will simply lose interest in these CCP-led Un-Roleplay sessions and just not bother to show up.



Wrong question. The question is, how could you know that an event wasn't?

Historically, just about all of CCP's live events have been pre-determined. Goons discovered that when they tried to pop the tribal leader's ships a couple events back. I discovered it in a recent event. Now Caldari and Dust players have discovered it when CCP brings in 30+ dev dreadnoughts to make sure players don't have a shot at winning, no matter if Dusties were winning on the ground and players were repping the titan and killing Gallente ships.

The correct response to a live event is not to bother if you are on the Amarr or Caldari side, because we have been the designated losers for the past 5 years. Even when the Caldari took every system and held it, CCP wrote it up as a situation where the Caldari invested too much into the systems, lost everything, and went into economic recession. The Amarr and Caldari factions only exist at this point as something for the Minnies and Gals (as the designated good guys) to beat.
Isbariya
State War Academy
Caldari State
#302 - 2013-03-23 00:15:10 UTC
Deacon Abox wrote:
Isbariya wrote:
Well that was to be expected of CCP, screwing up yet again ... so much for the sandbox ...
Would love to bring my own supers to galente prime and hold those galenteans hostage, but as that's not possible will have to wait till CCP decides to side with the Caldari for once ....

See this is what I'm talking about. This isn't the Intergalactic Summit in-character subforum. So I'm wondering if you really are such a sad specimen of human that you really think of yourself as "Caldari." And see CCP as some evil god (that is really Gallente, OMG SO UNFAIR, WHAAAA) that only wants you and your chosen race to suffer. Roll


Well I don't RP I can just identify myself quite good with the caldari for some how.
Some do outrageous things for their favorite soccer team or whatever sport they like most, why shouldn't I do the same with a faction in a game, I don't see much of a difference there.
My opinion is that CCP tried to do a good athing but screwed it up by not sticking to the very thing I think most of us love about this game, taht you can do whatever you want in whatever way you want it.
By having a fixd outcome no matter what the Caldari side did they betrayed their own game in some way and that is what I hate about these live events. Sure I don't want some Goons to just show up and alpha a head of state, but if they bring like a hundred players and organize a nice ambush, why shouldn't they be able to ?
Same goes for the Titan, if the Galenteans killed the titan by brute force and larger numbers, I don't have a problem, I would be mad at my faction and would likely shot some Galenteans if they happen to pas by but other then taht, no.
But by fixing the outcome it was just pointless to show up and that's what makes me mad about CCP.

Therefore I personaly don't need any more live events if the players can't influence the outcome in the slightest, better just create some nice cutscenes for it or some chronicles, at least there anyone can participate ...
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#303 - 2013-03-23 00:17:57 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
I know it would be bloody difficult to make happen, but next time CCP plans a live event, where the ending is pre-determined, "No matter the action of the players", we should boycott it. Get enough people in system, prior to the event, in shuttles, then just not show up on grid. The whole thing was a joke anyway, and I count myself among those who are offended that this was sold as something the players could participate in, when their actions were about as much as yelling at fighter jets in the sky during an airshow.

Two thumbs down, CCP

Let's boycott/lock out the next event.

Short of time-travel, how do you propose finding out that the event is pre-determined to boycott it? I mean, there were clues on this occasion like the leaked titan wreck in Dust, but until things kicked off it wasn't totally clear just how one-sidedly things had been arranged.

Unfortunately what I'd expect is not that there will be some deliberate attempt at an orchestrated boycott, but that people will simply lose interest in these CCP-led Un-Roleplay sessions and just not bother to show up.



I think it's fair to say, based on this event, and what CCP's official statements have been on this event, and prospect of not-so-distant-future-events, (roughly; we don't see players influencing the outcome of these sorts of events anytime so), that any near future 'live player events' will be similarly scripted.

I do hope you're right, that people will lose interest, because that will achieve a similar means of what I proposed. CCP realizing that this sort of 'come participate, but we're going to godmode it anyways, so just shoot eachother and watch' live event is a slap in the face to interactive roleplay and the sandbox design. A professional company, would have allowed players to determine the outcome, either by assisting the Caldari side, or the Gallente side, then writing out the series of events based on the outcome. Their claims that this is not possible, are simple, plain, laziness.
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2013-03-23 00:28:43 UTC
will the planetary skin be updated at downtime to show the titan wreck and impact crater so it is visible from space?.
James Messina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#305 - 2013-03-23 00:30:31 UTC
You should be able to see the titan wreckage from orbit, would be badass.
Vrash Bone
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#306 - 2013-03-23 00:36:37 UTC
Um ... what's the point of this "event?" A corpie says it prolly has something to do with Dust? Perhaps this is just pr0n for FW people? Really, what's to care about for the player base at large ... what am I missing?

- Vrash
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#307 - 2013-03-23 06:02:51 UTC
Vrash Bone wrote:
Um ... what's the point of this "event?" A corpie says it prolly has something to do with Dust? Perhaps this is just **** for FW people? Really, what's to care about for the player base at large ... what am I missing?

- Vrash


Your corpie doesn't understand the fact that many FW pilots are restricted to lowsec/null, and didn't actually have access to this event. It was prettymuch a publicity ploy gone bad.
Eli Green
The Arrow Project
#308 - 2013-03-23 07:06:52 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
chatgris wrote:
The real question is this:

Is this live event something that players can influence the outcome of? If so, by omitting the majority of those people who've been fighting for FW this is pretty ******.

However, if this live event has a pre-determined outcome, just let us know that is the case and we can happily just watch the show.


Events where players can completely rewrite the outcome from the ground up are something I would love to see happen someday and I think a lot of people here share that dream. However we are still building up our capabilities in this area and that's not something we're ready to pull off yet.


You will regret saying this in writing.

wumbo
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#309 - 2013-03-23 07:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Eli Green wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
chatgris wrote:
The real question is this:

Is this live event something that players can influence the outcome of? If so, by omitting the majority of those people who've been fighting for FW this is pretty ******.

However, if this live event has a pre-determined outcome, just let us know that is the case and we can happily just watch the show.


Events where players can completely rewrite the outcome from the ground up are something I would love to see happen someday and I think a lot of people here share that dream. However we are still building up our capabilities in this area and that's not something we're ready to pull off yet.


You will regret saying this in writing.


I'm glad it has been spelled out publicly, however.

Setting up events where the players can substantially affect the outcome is well within the capabilities of any reasonably competent DM in a friday night pen-and-paper RPG group. Apparently though, a company with a staff of 500 people on-board and annual revenues in the 10s of millions of dollars cannot manage this.

It takes a true stroke of genius to outright buy up a well-known RPG company (White Wolf) and still not be able to run an RPG event.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#310 - 2013-03-23 08:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
CCP Backfire wrote:

The reason behind the backfire of developing any feature in EVE is this:

The gratitude of the minority who will benefit from it will not match the outrage of those who won't benefit of it.

EVE players are over-jealous siblings; for each "thanks, mommy" you will be flooded by 100's of "you hate me and I hate you!"


Or, you can't always please everybody, but it's easy to anger everyone everytime. Lol


Disclaimer: CCP Backfire is a fictional character. In case that some CCP Backfire does exist, I salute him/her!Bear
flakeys
Doomheim
#311 - 2013-03-23 08:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: flakeys
CCP Fozzie wrote:
chatgris wrote:
The real question is this:

Is this live event something that players can influence the outcome of? If so, by omitting the majority of those people who've been fighting for FW this is pretty ******.

However, if this live event has a pre-determined outcome, just let us know that is the case and we can happily just watch the show.


Events where players can completely rewrite the outcome from the ground up are something I would love to see happen someday and I think a lot of people here share that dream. However we are still building up our capabilities in this area and that's not something we're ready to pull off yet.



As i stated yesterday that it would be wise to make clear before such an event that there is a pop cap and that concord WILL act etc . would have numbed most complaints there where.

With this comment of yours fozzie i'd like to add :

CCP Falcon wrote:

of New Eden.

A storm is coming, and when it arrives your actions could either assist in maintaining a fragile stability, or usher in a new era in politics that will resonate across every world in New Eden.




and also from the event announcement: If you want to participate in shaping EVE's history, you should monitor the news closely over the next few days and set aside your Friday afternoon (UTC).

So in short that was just a lie , newspaper add wich was FAR from what actually was gonna happen.

I understand every move you made about how to do the live event itself completely but regarding your 'information' next time just don't hype it as you did now.You basically promised gold and delivered sand yesterday.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
flakeys
Doomheim
#312 - 2013-03-23 09:02:14 UTC
CCP Backfire wrote:

The reason behind the backfire of developing any feature in EVE is this:

The gratitude of the minority who will benefit from it will not match the outrage of those who won't benefit of it.

EVE players are over-jealous siblings; for each "thanks, mommy" you will be flooded by 100's of "you hate me and I hate you!"


Wich only should be an extra stimulance to be sure to be 100% clear about what you are doing.You are right that you will allways get a lot of complaints but i've been with you guys for 10 years allmost and so far a big bunch of the 'outcry' on the forums in the past had to do with bad / half information handling to the players.

Never promise more then you can deliver unfortunalty is something allmost no game company uses.If you look at new games being announced you'll see a crapload of stuff promised wich will never be delivered at release.It's the reason why i don't even bother looking at previews of games but only read the reviews once released.

In eve i'd say WIS is the biggest one of these overhyped 'adds' .

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Boozer Hoover
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#313 - 2013-03-23 09:52:47 UTC
flakeys wrote:
CCP Backfire wrote:

The reason behind the backfire of developing any feature in EVE is this:

The gratitude of the minority who will benefit from it will not match the outrage of those who won't benefit of it.

EVE players are over-jealous siblings; for each "thanks, mommy" you will be flooded by 100's of "you hate me and I hate you!"


Wich only should be an extra stimulance to be sure to be 100% clear about what you are doing.You are right that you will allways get a lot of complaints but i've been with you guys for 10 years allmost and so far a big bunch of the 'outcry' on the forums in the past had to do with bad / half information handling to the players.

Never promise more then you can deliver unfortunalty is something allmost no game company uses.If you look at new games being announced you'll see a crapload of stuff promised wich will never be delivered at release.It's the reason why i don't even bother looking at previews of games but only read the reviews once released.

In eve i'd say WIS is the biggest one of these overhyped 'adds' .



Hey dude, read the post before you go quoting, CCP backfire doesn't exist
Lev Arturis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2013-03-23 10:01:11 UTC
I and the other 230 capsuleers in our fleet had fun. Thx CCP for that event.

It was totaly clear for every one that the outcome was scripted. It was also clear that if you are not early enough in the system you will have a hard time to get into it.

flakeys
Doomheim
#315 - 2013-03-23 10:21:54 UTC
Boozer Hoover wrote:
flakeys wrote:
CCP Backfire wrote:

The reason behind the backfire of developing any feature in EVE is this:

The gratitude of the minority who will benefit from it will not match the outrage of those who won't benefit of it.

EVE players are over-jealous siblings; for each "thanks, mommy" you will be flooded by 100's of "you hate me and I hate you!"


Wich only should be an extra stimulance to be sure to be 100% clear about what you are doing.You are right that you will allways get a lot of complaints but i've been with you guys for 10 years allmost and so far a big bunch of the 'outcry' on the forums in the past had to do with bad / half information handling to the players.

Never promise more then you can deliver unfortunalty is something allmost no game company uses.If you look at new games being announced you'll see a crapload of stuff promised wich will never be delivered at release.It's the reason why i don't even bother looking at previews of games but only read the reviews once released.

In eve i'd say WIS is the biggest one of these overhyped 'adds' .



Hey dude, read the post before you go quoting, CCP backfire doesn't exist



Hey dude , your right flaw on my part , still doesn't change what i said is true and is the biggest flaw for this event and many 'changes' that have gotten such a 'warm' response from the players.Or are you saying CCP FOZZIE and CCP FALCON also don't exist?

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#316 - 2013-03-23 10:52:19 UTC
Lev Arturis wrote:
I and the other 230 capsuleers in our fleet had fun. Thx CCP for that event.

It was totaly clear for every one that the outcome was scripted. It was also clear that if you are not early enough in the system you will have a hard time to get into it.



Yeah, compare that with the advertising for the event by CCP Falcon in the OP:

Quote:
...You've all come so far in the last ten years, and the time draws closer when your immortal brethren on the ground will begin to assist you in shaping the political landscape of New Eden.

A storm is coming, and when it arrives your actions could either assist in maintaining a fragile stability, or usher in a new era in politics that will resonate across every world in New Eden.


Well, that turned out to be a load of you-know-what, didn't it? Your actions didn't mean a thing. Neither did anyone else's. "Shaping history"? When the same history would have happened with 3000 or 3 people in the system? Heh. If people just want to get on Titan kills, why not just petition CCP to put an random NPC titan up once a day in a random hi-sec location? It would be more honest, and players would have the same effect on the story - none!
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#317 - 2013-03-23 11:57:49 UTC
It seems that Falcon's idea of 'shaping the political landscape' is the players having a thunderdome between themselves whilst a scripted cutscene takes place in the background.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
New Eden Alliance 99013733
#318 - 2013-03-23 13:12:46 UTC
I'm glad to see the Titan finally gone, sadly I was hoping CCP had let us take care of it years ago by not giving it 95% resist and a silly amount of hitpoints in the first place.

How to win EVE
Lev Arturis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2013-03-23 16:18:49 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Lev Arturis wrote:
I and the other 230 capsuleers in our fleet had fun. Thx CCP for that event.

It was totaly clear for every one that the outcome was scripted. It was also clear that if you are not early enough in the system you will have a hard time to get into it.



Yeah, compare that with the advertising for the event by CCP Falcon in the OP:

Quote:
...You've all come so far in the last ten years, and the time draws closer when your immortal brethren on the ground will begin to assist you in shaping the political landscape of New Eden.

A storm is coming, and when it arrives your actions could either assist in maintaining a fragile stability, or usher in a new era in politics that will resonate across every world in New Eden.


Well, that turned out to be a load of you-know-what, didn't it? Your actions didn't mean a thing. Neither did anyone else's. "Shaping history"? When the same history would have happened with 3000 or 3 people in the system? Heh. If people just want to get on Titan kills, why not just petition CCP to put an random NPC titan up once a day in a random hi-sec location? It would be more honest, and players would have the same effect on the story - none!


You should maybe read all dev posts in future:

CCP Fozzie wrote:
chatgris wrote:
The real question is this:

Is this live event something that players can influence the outcome of? If so, by omitting the majority of those people who've been fighting for FW this is pretty ******.

However, if this live event has a pre-determined outcome, just let us know that is the case and we can happily just watch the show.


Events where players can completely rewrite the outcome from the ground up are something I would love to see happen someday and I think a lot of people here share that dream. However we are still building up our capabilities in this area and that's not something we're ready to pull off yet.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#320 - 2013-03-24 00:02:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Lev Arturis wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


Yeah, compare that with the advertising for the event by CCP Falcon in the OP:

Quote:
...You've all come so far in the last ten years, and the time draws closer when your immortal brethren on the ground will begin to assist you in shaping the political landscape of New Eden.

A storm is coming, and when it arrives your actions could either assist in maintaining a fragile stability, or usher in a new era in politics that will resonate across every world in New Eden.


Well, that turned out to be a load of you-know-what, didn't it? Your actions didn't mean a thing. Neither did anyone else's. "Shaping history"? When the same history would have happened with 3000 or 3 people in the system? Heh. If people just want to get on Titan kills, why not just petition CCP to put an random NPC titan up once a day in a random hi-sec location? It would be more honest, and players would have the same effect on the story - none!


You should maybe read all dev posts in future:

CCP Fozzie wrote:
chatgris wrote:
The real question is this:

Is this live event something that players can influence the outcome of? If so, by omitting the majority of those people who've been fighting for FW this is pretty ******.

However, if this live event has a pre-determined outcome, just let us know that is the case and we can happily just watch the show.


Events where players can completely rewrite the outcome from the ground up are something I would love to see happen someday and I think a lot of people here share that dream. However we are still building up our capabilities in this area and that's not something we're ready to pull off yet.


Sadly I'm pyramid quoting but hey.
Fozzie did not say the event was scripted. He said Players could not change every single aspect of the event in a single foul swoop, certain things were going to happen regardless.

However.....

Players can alter events inside that frame. Lets take as in inevetable event like you all claim that the titan was going to go down.
Now lets look at the build up.
Titan shoots Concord BS, Titan is in low orbit ready to bombard planet. Gallente fleet warps on grid shortly after titan is shot in order to stop bombardment.
Now, lets take a step out of the box, lets imagine the FCORD fleet was actually a hard core Caldari fleet, properly equipped with BS & Logi.
So, 240 BS & Logi warp onto the field, logi assist Caldari Caps & Super caps in holding the titan shields mostly stable. The 150 BS doing 150,000 DPS target up the Moros & start popping them.
Moros are in Siege so can't recieve remote assistance. Meaning 150,000 DPS is going to make short work of a Moros.
The Moros drop quickly, meaning the Logi can easily keep up with the DPS left, the Gallente fleet is getting shredded.
Ok, so Gallente warp in a titan in response.
Titans engage each other, Logi continue to support Titan, Caldari fleet finishes up Moros, moves onto the Triaged Carriers supporting the Erebus. Again, 150,000 DPS makes short work of them.
Gallente Triage carriers drop due to lack of RR also, Caldari Carriers are fine since they didn't Triage so can RR each other when DPS shifts.
Erebus drops shortly afterwards, Levithain then initiates bombardment of the Gallente enclaves, killing million.

Concord response finally arrives, with a mass of Concord BS engaging the titan while jamming out the carriers, far overcoming any support the Caldari fleet can supply without the Caps assistance, and the Levithain is destroyed by Concord.
A few other Caldari Caps may get concorded, remainder jump out, Caldari RP'er Fleet disengages before concord pays them any notice.

So.... we now have a situation where the Caldari could have won a major fleet victory, destroyed a superior Gallente Cap fleet, Bombarded the planet as threatened, yet the Titan still crashes into the planet.
Now I don't know about you, but I consider that kind of change to an event 'The ability to influence an event'.

Obviously this is pure theory, but works within the framework of what has been presented.