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What does the Phantasm even do?

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#201 - 2013-03-19 18:05:20 UTC
I don't care how many billions in officer fit you throw at a Nightmare, it's still not going to be remotely as useful as the Mach.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#202 - 2013-03-19 18:19:38 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I don't care how many billions in officer fit you throw at a Nightmare, it's still not going to be remotely as useful as the Mach.

-Liang


Wow, that's harsh. But fair. The mach just has an absurdly perfect set of bonuses. I direct you to my earlier post here

Really puts perspective on that stupidly-powerful hull.
Mr Hyde113
#203 - 2013-03-19 18:22:52 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I don't care how many billions in officer fit you throw at a Nightmare, it's still not going to be remotely as useful as the Mach.

-Liang


^This^


The reason the Mach is problematic is speed (duh). Its other characteristics alone, aren't a problem, but when combined with cruiser-like speed, they scale to a ridiculous level. As an attribute, speed is IMO one of the highest priority factors that a ship has to be balanced around. The angel ships do not seem to sacrifice much in other areas to justify their ridiculous speed, which creates problems for ships like the vagabond when compared to the cynabal.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#204 - 2013-03-19 22:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
All ships in EVE are balanced by give and take, weakness vs. strength, Yin and Yang, good and bad, yada yada yada.. The fail portion of a mach is its tank, without giving up a firstborn for the cost of fittings it would die in a blaze of fire as soon as it got tackled, so to compensate it was made fast as a scalded cat to make it hard to catch.

Unfortunately the weapon system for a Mach works best when sitting still and any movement causes a noticeable drop in tracking and reduces DPS astonishingly bad when using a MWD and only severely bad when using an AB. As a general rule fighting in 50% falloff will lose 20% of your DPS, add acceleration to that and suddenly you find you’re only doing 20% of your actual DPS at 50% falloff at moderate speeds. Change tactics and close on the target will improve hits but reduce transversal making it easy for an opponent to hit, while the mach is still trying to bleed off angular to hit them. The point being that the reason a mach has 70km of falloff is because it has 20% of its DPS flying into nothing, or glancing off, when it uses any of the speed bonus whatsoever, the same speed everyone wants gimped off it.

The slot layout for a shield mach is silly for PVP with two slots for point and web, one for propulsion mod leaves two for tank, inadequate for all but the most expensive modules, switch to an armour tank and you have thrown away the agility and dps for buffer and tracking but now its a sitting duck waiting to die. Switching to arties and sniper fit is a great idea but the same effect can be accomplished with a Nado for less than the cost of a full cargo hold of ammo.

The training required to max a Mach is daunting for new players with 255 days for core skills, 161 days for gunnery, 99 days for drones, and another 90 days for racial ship skills alone, add any e-war you want and you will spend 2 years perfecting this ship. A cruiser will take you less than half the time to train at most, but after two years of perfecting this ship a player will be well placed to move into Capitals.

The Mach should be left alone because it covers all the training requirements for a superb pilot, it requires learning the tactics for both flying and conflict engagement, it requires learning to fly a non-cap stable fit, using cap like ammo, and ammo like it’s going out of style, it provides players with a goal that continues to keep accounts active, and players involved. Nerfing it would remove a goalpost for many players with no real up side other than to appease the limited number of haters represented here.

I am confident that CCP is aware of the limitations of a Mach and hopefully they have plans to buff the other pirate faction ships more than Nerf the Mach.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#205 - 2013-03-19 23:21:21 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:


I think the combination of damage projection and mobility is a bit much, I'd look at reducing its falloff.


And the vindicator is arguably the best brawler in the game. So what?


If you are worried about something being unbalanced, whine about tier 3 BC, they are too fast and project too much damage too far.




Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#206 - 2013-03-20 00:11:11 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:


I think the combination of damage projection and mobility is a bit much, I'd look at reducing its falloff.


And the vindicator is arguably the best brawler in the game. So what?


If you are worried about something being unbalanced, whine about tier 3 BC, they are too fast and project too much damage too far.



I'm not talking about the Vindicator, I'm talking about the Machariel, silly.

I think you're right about t3 BCs though.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#207 - 2013-03-20 00:15:46 UTC
Well yeah, its easy to complain about T3 BCs after a CCP dev has already admitted them being overpowered.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#208 - 2013-03-20 13:28:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Complain about tier3 BC, but the mach is basicaly a tier3 BC with BS tank + a heavy neutralizer...

If tier3 BC may be OP, mach is far more OP than them.

[Machariel, quick&dirty]

7x 800mm Repeating Artillery II (Republic Fleet EMP L)
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
2x Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

3x Gyrostabilizer II
2x Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
2x Large Core Defense Field Extender I


100kehp ; 764 dps@8+88 km w/ barrage ; 959dps@4+59 km w/ RF EMP ; 1646 m/s cold ; 9,58s align time w/ MWD ; neutra to melt down frigates and cruisers (like if that was required).

And we are talking here about a shield tanked ship with 7 low slots, go figure.

As for the supply of BPC being what limit machariel proliferation, it is true. Those who don't agree should learn about economy. Machariel cost 162M isk in minerals to build, and I bet other pirate BS cost about the same.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#209 - 2013-03-20 14:51:42 UTC
Has anybody seen the Phantasm thread?
I cannot seem to find it.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#210 - 2013-03-20 16:21:26 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Has anybody seen the Phantasm thread?
I cannot seem to find it.


You are in the wrong place sir, this is the Machariel thread.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#211 - 2013-03-20 17:01:17 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Has anybody seen the Phantasm thread?
I cannot seem to find it.


Many of the same problems that apply to the Phantasm apply to the Nightmare/Mach conversation. I don't begrudge it overly much. I still contend that brawling laser ships (even with a tracking bonus and enough mids for a web) is a bad idea. I'd much rather see semi fast optimal bonused laser kiting ships. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#212 - 2013-03-20 18:17:15 UTC
Mr Hyde113 wrote:

The reason the Mach is problematic is speed (duh). Its other characteristics alone, aren't a problem, but when combined with cruiser-like speed, they scale to a ridiculous level. As an attribute, speed is IMO one of the highest priority factors that a ship has to be balanced around. The angel ships do not seem to sacrifice much in other areas to justify their ridiculous speed, which creates problems for ships like the vagabond when compared to the cynabal.



The reason the Mach has that speed is because it has only 5 mid slots unlike the other shield tanked pirate BS (Nightmare and Rattle) which have 7. So yes, you get extra speed to help mitigate incoming damage but you are also basically forced into spending 2B+ isk on your tank since you only have 3 slots available. Any reduction in the Mach's speed would require an addition of a 6th midslot to balance it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#213 - 2013-03-20 19:56:42 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Mr Hyde113 wrote:

The reason the Mach is problematic is speed (duh). Its other characteristics alone, aren't a problem, but when combined with cruiser-like speed, they scale to a ridiculous level. As an attribute, speed is IMO one of the highest priority factors that a ship has to be balanced around. The angel ships do not seem to sacrifice much in other areas to justify their ridiculous speed, which creates problems for ships like the vagabond when compared to the cynabal.



The reason the Mach has that speed is because it has only 5 mid slots unlike the other shield tanked pirate BS (Nightmare and Rattle) which have 7. So yes, you get extra speed to help mitigate incoming damage but you are also basically forced into spending 2B+ isk on your tank since you only have 3 slots available. Any reduction in the Mach's speed would require an addition of a 6th midslot to balance it.


I don't see how you are forced into spending 2B to have a viable Mach. Please stop making things up. You're derailing a great thread about the Phantasm.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#214 - 2013-03-20 20:07:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


I don't see how you are forced into spending 2B to have a viable Mach. Please stop making things up. You're derailing a great thread about the Phantasm.

-Liang



Depends on what you are trying to do. I doubt you will be able to tank a DED 8/10 or 10/10 with a T2 tank.
Din Tempre
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#215 - 2013-03-20 20:12:52 UTC
I love the phantasm. Was my first faction cruiser and still have that exact ship despite many different adventures, including several solo sightseeing tours through various null.

I'm going to suggest something radical for sansha ships - MJD spool up speed and non-covert cloak speed bonuses (while still keeping their damage). They scream predator and giving them the ability to "pounce" would be a very unique flavor to bring to EVE, and still distinct from the recons which are a true ambush.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#216 - 2013-03-20 20:17:34 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


I don't see how you are forced into spending 2B to have a viable Mach. Please stop making things up. You're derailing a great thread about the Phantasm.

-Liang



Depends on what you are trying to do. I doubt you will be able to tank a DED 8/10 or 10/10 with a T2 tank.


Roll

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#217 - 2013-03-20 20:31:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Floydy
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Any reduction in the Mach's speed would require an addition of a 6th midslot to balance it.

Can have some mid slots if you want, in expense for the lows to stop people fitting 3x gyro 3x TE ;)

Of course you could just fit an armour tank, and still probably outpace any other Battleship in the game...
Although then you'd get caught by a shield tank fit, which... oh yeah has a weedy tank and can just run from you if it takes too much damage.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#218 - 2013-03-20 22:59:20 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:


I think the combination of damage projection and mobility is a bit much, I'd look at reducing its falloff.


And the vindicator is arguably the best brawler in the game. So what?


If you are worried about something being unbalanced, whine about tier 3 BC, they are too fast and project too much damage too far.



I'm not talking about the Vindicator, I'm talking about the Machariel, silly.

I think you're right about t3 BCs though.


No, my point was the faction battleships being amazing at their roles isn't a bad thing.

The mach being the best kiting ship doesn't matter. The same way the vindi being the best brawler doesn't matter.


Neither need nerfs, they are perfect as they are.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#219 - 2013-03-20 23:24:48 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Depends on what you are trying to do. I doubt you will be able to tank a DED 8/10 or 10/10 with a T2 tank.
What in the... Oh nevermind. Straight

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Lenier Chenal
Offensive Upholder
#220 - 2013-03-21 02:25:49 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
All ships in EVE are balanced by give and take, weakness vs. strength, Yin and Yang, good and bad, yada yada yada.. The fail portion of a mach is its tank, without giving up a firstborn for the cost of fittings it would die in a blaze of fire as soon as it got tackled, so to compensate it was made fast as a scalded cat to make it hard to catch.

Unfortunately the weapon system for a Mach works best when sitting still and any movement causes a noticeable drop in tracking and reduces DPS astonishingly bad when using a MWD and only severely bad when using an AB. As a general rule fighting in 50% falloff will lose 20% of your DPS, add acceleration to that and suddenly you find you’re only doing 20% of your actual DPS at 50% falloff at moderate speeds. Change tactics and close on the target will improve hits but reduce transversal making it easy for an opponent to hit, while the mach is still trying to bleed off angular to hit them. The point being that the reason a mach has 70km of falloff is because it has 20% of its DPS flying into nothing, or glancing off, when it uses any of the speed bonus whatsoever, the same speed everyone wants gimped off it.

The slot layout for a shield mach is silly for PVP with two slots for point and web, one for propulsion mod leaves two for tank, inadequate for all but the most expensive modules, switch to an armour tank and you have thrown away the agility and dps for buffer and tracking but now its a sitting duck waiting to die. Switching to arties and sniper fit is a great idea but the same effect can be accomplished with a Nado for less than the cost of a full cargo hold of ammo.

The training required to max a Mach is daunting for new players with 255 days for core skills, 161 days for gunnery, 99 days for drones, and another 90 days for racial ship skills alone, add any e-war you want and you will spend 2 years perfecting this ship. A cruiser will take you less than half the time to train at most, but after two years of perfecting this ship a player will be well placed to move into Capitals.

The Mach should be left alone because it covers all the training requirements for a superb pilot, it requires learning the tactics for both flying and conflict engagement, it requires learning to fly a non-cap stable fit, using cap like ammo, and ammo like it’s going out of style, it provides players with a goal that continues to keep accounts active, and players involved. Nerfing it would remove a goalpost for many players with no real up side other than to appease the limited number of haters represented here.

I am confident that CCP is aware of the limitations of a Mach and hopefully they have plans to buff the other pirate faction ships more than Nerf the Mach.


You always armor tank Machs, because you can use implants and links to make it go stupid fast still. You have awesome tank. You can also barely armor tank it and use armor implants, keeps it fast still.