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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Frigates

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#221 - 2013-03-18 14:44:31 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)


Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges

Web is the only thing that make TD seem OP. TD is counterable easily otherwise : get closer or reduce transversale.

Apple and orange in a salad.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#222 - 2013-03-18 16:17:34 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)


Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges

Web is the only thing that make TD seem OP. TD is counterable easily otherwise : get closer or reduce transversale.

Apple and orange in a salad.



The web has absolutely nothing to do with it.. imagine webs only slowed people down by 20%, how would that change how good TD's are? If you think about it really hard i'm sure you can figure out the logic fault here..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#223 - 2013-03-18 16:44:31 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)


Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges

Web is the only thing that make TD seem OP. TD is counterable easily otherwise : get closer or reduce transversale.

Apple and orange in a salad.



The web has absolutely nothing to do with it.. imagine webs only slowed people down by 20%, how would that change how good TD's are? If you think about it really hard i'm sure you can figure out the logic fault here..

I believe the logic is that the combination of a tracking disruptor, plus the ability to manipulate and control range, speed and, (most importantly,) traversal dramatically increses the effect of a TD. Its the same for trget painters. In combination with a web, a TP drastically increases in effectiveness.

Friends
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#224 - 2013-03-18 16:58:22 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)


Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges

Web is the only thing that make TD seem OP. TD is counterable easily otherwise : get closer or reduce transversale.

Apple and orange in a salad.



The web has absolutely nothing to do with it.. imagine webs only slowed people down by 20%, how would that change how good TD's are? If you think about it really hard i'm sure you can figure out the logic fault here..

I believe the logic is that the combination of a tracking disruptor, plus the ability to manipulate and control range, speed and, (most importantly,) traversal dramatically increses the effect of a TD. Its the same for trget painters. In combination with a web, a TP drastically increases in effectiveness.


Psst.. Webs are the only mods that affect speed (Not counting scram, that turns a mod off), thus no change to webs would make any difference to range control because it would work both ways.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#225 - 2013-03-18 18:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
Honestly, the hookbill is just still head and shoulders above the other frigates. I suggest

Slicer drops a high, gets a mid. Then it can actually brawl instead of just being a one trick kiting pony. (e.g. extra mid could be a cap booster for an AAR etc, or a web etc).

Navy Comet drops the high, gets a mid or low.

Firetail is a mixed bag - can actually use the utility high since it has capless guns, or put a missile launcher there. Though it wouldn't really hurt to lose the utility high for another mid or low.

Hookbill retains its current slow layout, continues to be the wtfpwn machine it is, but the other frigates now compare in performance. Could also undo the agility/mass nerfs on the hookbill.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#226 - 2013-03-18 18:43:31 UTC
Yeah as long as the slicer has the 2mids it will always stay only a kiter.
TBH they shouldn´t touch the hook and comet but buff slicer and firetail instead.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#227 - 2013-03-18 18:49:56 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Honestly, the hookbill is just still head and shoulders above the other frigates. I suggest

Slicer drops a high, gets a mid. Then it can actually brawl instead of just being a one trick kiting pony. (e.g. extra mid could be a cap booster for an AAR etc, or a web etc).

Navy Comet drops the high, gets a mid or low.

Firetail is a mixed bag - can actually use the utility high since it has capless guns, or put a missile launcher there. Though it wouldn't really hurt to lose the utility high for another mid or low.

Hookbill retains its current slow layout, continues to be the wtfpwn machine it is, but the other frigates now compare in performance. Could also undo the agility/mass nerfs on the hookbill.



I'm not sure but I think the firetail will beat the scram hookbill.

I'm not really sure about the comet though. An extra turret mount might be nice.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#228 - 2013-03-18 23:10:05 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Psst.. Webs are the only mods that affect speed (Not counting scram, that turns a mod off), thus no change to webs would make any difference to range control because it would work both ways.

Both ways ? Only if you assume both parties have a web...

BTW, I didn't asked for a web nerf. There is already plenty of counters to TD. Why not using them ? Or maybe the problem comes from weapons not affected by TD ?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#229 - 2013-03-18 23:30:10 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Psst.. Webs are the only mods that affect speed (Not counting scram, that turns a mod off), thus no change to webs would make any difference to range control because it would work both ways.

Both ways ? Only if you assume both parties have a web...

BTW, I didn't asked for a web nerf. There is already plenty of counters to TD. Why not using them ? Or maybe the problem comes from weapons not affected by TD ?



I do hope you don't mean TC's or TE's.. Because they aren't very effective counters :P

anyhow enough on that




Someone mentioned moving the highslot of the slicer which is something Fozzie should totally do. The slicer has absolutely NO use for that highslot what so ever, its a complete waste of space (Although having an offlined salvager is nice for when you kill a t2.. )

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#230 - 2013-03-19 00:20:44 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Psst.. Webs are the only mods that affect speed (Not counting scram, that turns a mod off), thus no change to webs would make any difference to range control because it would work both ways.

Both ways ? Only if you assume both parties have a web...

BTW, I didn't asked for a web nerf. There is already plenty of counters to TD. Why not using them ? Or maybe the problem comes from weapons not affected by TD ?



I do hope you don't mean TC's or TE's.. Because they aren't very effective counters :P

anyhow enough on that




Someone mentioned moving the highslot of the slicer which is something Fozzie should totally do. The slicer has absolutely NO use for that highslot what so ever, its a complete waste of space (Although having an offlined salvager is nice for when you kill a t2.. )


It's also useful to spread the damage done when you overheat the rack. Other than that it's completely useless and forces an otherwise fine ship into a kiting only role.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#231 - 2013-03-19 11:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. I'm going to grab a few prominent questions from the thread to answer:

Can we have the Police skin back on the Comet?
I also have a special place in my heart for the old Comet skin with its flashing light. However the art direction for the game dictates that navy faction ships follow the paint scheme of their racial fleet. However I do dream of the day when we can get Comets with that skin back into your hands, and I don't think that dream is in vain.


Why can't we move the utility high to a mid on the Slicer to make it more effective, especially in non-kiting roles?
I definitely understand the frustration that can come from having to work around having only two mids on a ship, but I also don't think the answer is to give every ship the full set of three. The Slicer has an effective niche with its optimal bonus that it serves well, and outside the box fittings are quite possible thanks to the element of surprise. I don't expect that we will give it a third mid in this pass.


Discussion about Merlin lockrange.
I'm going to answer that question over in the other thread.


When can we start public testing these ships?
The only answer I can give your right now is "As soon as possible" unfortunately. We'll keep you up to date as soon as our plans are ready to announce.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#232 - 2013-03-19 12:05:12 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)


Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges

Web is the only thing that make TD seem OP. TD is counterable easily otherwise : get closer or reduce transversale.

Apple and orange in a salad.



The web has absolutely nothing to do with it.. imagine webs only slowed people down by 20%, how would that change how good TD's are? If you think about it really hard i'm sure you can figure out the logic fault here..

I believe the logic is that the combination of a tracking disruptor, plus the ability to manipulate and control range, speed and, (most importantly,) traversal dramatically increses the effect of a TD. Its the same for trget painters. In combination with a web, a TP drastically increases in effectiveness.


Psst.. Webs are the only mods that affect speed (Not counting scram, that turns a mod off), thus no change to webs would make any difference to range control because it would work both ways.

Are you really suggesting that if webs had a 20% speed reduction instead of a 60% speed reduction they would dictate range just as easily?
I find that ludicrous. The range of a web and the amount it reduces speed has everything to do with its ability to dictate range.

Either way, I have not complained or asked for any changes. I don't think they are OP. I merely pointed out that the ability to dictate range and speed of targets is a great benefit to certain ewar types while less important to others.

Friends
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#233 - 2013-03-19 13:08:44 UTC
I'm glad the comet got a cpu buff, quite a while after I.maxed electronics but still

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#234 - 2013-03-19 15:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Why can't we move the utility high to a mid on the Slicer to make it more effective, especially in non-kiting roles?
I definitely understand the frustration that can come from having to work around having only two mids on a ship, but I also don't think the answer is to give every ship the full set of three. The Slicer has an effective niche with its optimal bonus that it serves well, and outside the box fittings are quite possible thanks to the element of surprise. I don't expect that we will give it a third mid in this pass.


The slicer isn't bad, i would never dream of calling it bad per say (Although i think both the hookbill and the comet far outperform it as kiters (Can fit td's and don't get ****** over by td's)) But you can't really deny that the high slot is basically a decoration.

But talking about the slicer.. Why is the slicer the only one where kiting with short range weapons is considered more viable for kiting than the long range one? Scorch kiting actually outdps's beam lasers up to the max point range.. =/

Rail comet is great, LML hookbill is great but a beam slicer? ******* impossible.




Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Are you really suggesting that if webs had a 20% speed reduction instead of a 60% speed reduction they would dictate range just as easily?
I find that ludicrous. The range of a web and the amount it reduces speed has everything to do with its ability to dictate range.

Either way, I have not complained or asked for any changes. I don't think they are OP. I merely pointed out that the ability to dictate range and speed of targets is a great benefit to certain ewar types while less important to others.


Sigh... If your webs would get nerfed by 20% so would THEIR webs. It would end up being the same.. (Unless one doesn't have a web but thats irrelevant to the point i was making)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#235 - 2013-03-19 16:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Why can't we move the utility high to a mid on the Slicer to make it more effective, especially in non-kiting roles?
I definitely understand the frustration that can come from having to work around having only two mids on a ship, but I also don't think the answer is to give every ship the full set of three. The Slicer has an effective niche with its optimal bonus that it serves well, and outside the box fittings are quite possible thanks to the element of surprise. I don't expect that we will give it a third mid in this pass.

so, maybe a low slot? The utility high really serves no purpose on a slicer since the slicer simply does not survive any brawling longer than 15s. Sure it has a huge dps and can sometimes kill slow brawlers in time, but the ship itself is not designed for this. It has not the tracking, resistance or medium slots. Even if you build a anti-slicer slicer you don't need the high slot. People who put something into the high slot usually just do it since its empty.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#236 - 2013-03-19 17:53:18 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
I'm glad the comet got a cpu buff, quite a while after I.maxed electronics but still

That's ok. Go ahead and fit an extra mag stab anyways. Big smile
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#237 - 2013-03-19 19:09:38 UTC
Another low or mid on the Slicer would be great, the spare high is useless! Don't think I've ever ended up with a fit that ever has the cpu to put something in it even if there was something that could be useful.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#238 - 2013-03-19 19:37:34 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Are you really suggesting that if webs had a 20% speed reduction instead of a 60% speed reduction they would dictate range just as easily?
I find that ludicrous. The range of a web and the amount it reduces speed has everything to do with its ability to dictate range.

Either way, I have not complained or asked for any changes. I don't think they are OP. I merely pointed out that the ability to dictate range and speed of targets is a great benefit to certain ewar types while less important to others.


Sigh... If your webs would get nerfed by 20% so would THEIR webs. It would end up being the same.. (Unless one doesn't have a web but thats irrelevant to the point i was making)

Sigh all you want. The reason your argument is flawed is because you have assumed everyone fits 1 web, while I am at least considering the possibility that some people fit two and some don't fit any. My statement stands.

Friends
Toterra
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#239 - 2013-03-19 20:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Toterra
I am not so sure it is a good idea to increase the lock range of these ships so much. It seems the only reason to increase lock range is to allow them to lock a target and point it using a off-grid boosted point. Wheras the short lock ranges makes for some interesting fights. For example I had 5 minute long nail biter with my AB fit comet vs a kitting maulus. The maulus was able to damp me down to around 7km. Even though I was occasionally able to slingshot him within the range of my overheated scram, I couldn't lock him. Eventually I won when he made a mistake but it was a close thing. Giving these frigates a longer lock range is supposed to do what exactly? All I can see it as a stealth boost to skirmish links which are already too powerful, and it reduces the effectiveness of sensor dampers.

Otherwise I love most of the changes.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#240 - 2013-03-19 20:39:03 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Sigh... If your webs would get nerfed by 20% so would THEIR webs. It would end up being the same.. (Unless one doesn't have a web but thats irrelevant to the point i was making)

Sigh all you want. The reason your argument is flawed is because you have assumed everyone fits 1 web, while I am at least considering the possibility that some people fit two and some don't fit any. My statement stands.

On top of that, you have no problem with everyone having a web (or you wouldn't consider everyone using one) but everyone using a TD is a sign that TD is OP ?