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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Frigates

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Roseline Penshar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#201 - 2013-03-17 15:19:35 UTC
lol just look at the merlin and realize 50 km targeting range......really? for a brawler? suit for a kiter that much of targeting range
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#202 - 2013-03-17 16:03:57 UTC
Roseline Penshar wrote:
lol just look at the merlin and realize 50 km targeting range......really? for a brawler? suit for a kiter that much of targeting range
targeting range is for resistance against damps.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#203 - 2013-03-17 16:40:07 UTC
Roseline Penshar wrote:
lol just look at the merlin and realize 50 km targeting range......really? for a brawler? suit for a kiter that much of targeting range

Its a hybrid boat.

T2 150mm Rails with Spike S has a 32km optimal with max skills and no mods. With 2 TC2's and 1 TE2 thast 46km optimal with 14km falloff.

Suddenly that 50km range isn't so ludicrous any more...

Friends
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#204 - 2013-03-17 18:57:31 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:



Well unbonused ECM is bad, unbonused damps are bad, why shouldn't unbonused TD's be bad? (Unless you have two of each)


Well ECM is OP, a TD can be countered by flying better, being jammed can not. Strong Ewar is nessecary for interesting fits. Why should every pvp ship be 1 web scram and prop?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
#205 - 2013-03-17 19:02:40 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Roseline Penshar wrote:
lol just look at the merlin and realize 50 km targeting range......really? for a brawler? suit for a kiter that much of targeting range
targeting range is for resistance against damps.

Let's be honest it is because merlin was "sniper" platform with optimal range bonus.
Now it isn't.
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

Its a hybrid boat.

T2 150mm Rails with Spike S has a 32km optimal with max skills and no mods. With 2 TC2's and 1 TE2 thast 46km optimal with 14km falloff.

Suddenly that 50km range isn't so ludicrous any more...


Suddenly all ships have longrange and shortrange weapons.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#206 - 2013-03-17 21:04:14 UTC
Captain Nares wrote:

Let's be honest it is because merlin was "sniper" platform with optimal range bonus.
Now it isn't.

It's because every Caldari ship in the game has superior lock range and sensor strength compared to every other ship in the same class. Caldari is the "e-war resistant" race.
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
#207 - 2013-03-17 21:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Nares
X Gallentius wrote:
Captain Nares wrote:

Let's be honest it is because merlin was "sniper" platform with optimal range bonus.
Now it isn't.

It's because every Caldari ship in the game has superior lock range and sensor strength compared to every other ship in the same class. Caldari is the "e-war resistant" race.


Pic #2 smartass edition

http://i.imgur.com/F8rq7pK.png

Why condor isn't as "e-war resistant" as merlin?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#208 - 2013-03-17 22:37:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Commander Ted wrote:
Well ECM is OP, a TD can be countered by flying better, being jammed can not. Strong Ewar is nessecary for interesting fits. Why should every pvp ship be 1 web scram and prop?

ECM was OP, now its just annoying as hell, but that is something that won't change until the underlying mechanic is changed .. one has a fair shake against unbonused users and know what's expected when there are bonuses landing on grid.
Strong eWar does add some flavour, but there is a rather broad line (ie. not fine at all) between adding flavour and being OP. As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and TD?

ECM is still very viable on unbonused hulls in the frigate/destroyer sphere as sensors without the militia implants are ****-poor for the most part, against larger hulls however you do need bonuses to make a difference .. TD's on the other hand will reduce everything from a faction fit marauder to a pirate frig to a waste of time regardless of platform used and it does that at optimals greater than what is achievable with ECM (on bonused hulls!).

Question: If ECM was broken due to being too effective at too great ranges on too many hulls, what does that make TD's?

As for the matter at hand, since we have moved completely away from commenting on the thread topic, am I to assume that all that needed to be said has been said? Big smile
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
#209 - 2013-03-17 22:56:31 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

As for the matter at hand, since we have moved completely away from commenting on the thread topic, am I to assume that all that needed to be said has been said? Big smile


Well... regarding 1st post by CCP Fozzie:

FIXING ONE (1.0, ONE-POINT-ZERO) FRIGATE ISN'T ENOUGH for "rebalance", "revamp" or "patch".
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#210 - 2013-03-18 01:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
Veshta Yoshida wrote:


Question: If ECM was broken due to being too effective at too great ranges on too many hulls, what does that make TD's?

As for the matter at hand, since we have moved completely away from commenting on the thread topic, am I to assume that all that needed to be said has been said? Big smile


When your under the effects of a TD, you can still scram, web,damp,jam, do perfect missile damage, (possibly use turrets to still do some damage), change drone targets, and neut your opponent.

When you are jammed you are helpless in every single way, your range is now 0, and your tracking is now 0. When that 20 second cycle is done you may already be half dead.

but yea its off topic.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#211 - 2013-03-18 02:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Captain Nares wrote:
Why condor isn't as "e-war resistant" as merlin?

Condor is attack frigate and not a combat frigate.
Ship, Sensor Strength, Lock Range
Condor 9, 30km
Atron 8, 25km
Executioner 8, 27.5 km (which follows the Comet/Slicer btw)
Slasher 7, 22.5 km


Edit: Point taken, 50km for Merlin seems out of line.

Merlin 50 km
Kestrel 50 km - Missile
Tristan 40km - Drone
Tormentor 40 km - Drone
Breacher 35 km - Missile
Incursus 30 km
Punisher 25 km
Rifter 22.5 km
Roza Fitzwalter
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#212 - 2013-03-18 04:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Roza Fitzwalter
What is this? New Incursus was better than Comet and it would. Evil
Make Navy Comet blaster ultraclose platform or kite ship without drones (give him 3rd turret).
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#213 - 2013-03-18 09:47:37 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and TD?

As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and web?

You are wrong : a web is as much, if not more mandatory than a TD. Is web OP ?
Roseline Penshar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2013-03-18 10:49:13 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Roseline Penshar wrote:
lol just look at the merlin and realize 50 km targeting range......really? for a brawler? suit for a kiter that much of targeting range

Its a hybrid boat.

T2 150mm Rails with Spike S has a 32km optimal with max skills and no mods. With 2 TC2's and 1 TE2 thast 46km optimal with 14km falloff.

Suddenly that 50km range isn't so ludicrous any more...



well.....incursus is a hybrid boat (ship that use hybrid weapon) too, why not giving it the same targeting range then?

and i don't see merlin have purpose to be a sniper, the bonus not inform it like that
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#215 - 2013-03-18 11:21:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and TD?

As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and web?

You are wrong : a web is as much, if not more mandatory than a TD. Is web OP ?


No because webs are balanced by other parts of the metagame. (Unless you're talking about 70km webs because yes then its ridiculous and op as ****)


Even though a web is technically a form of EWAR its not balanced against TD's, ECM, DAMPS and TP's. Apples and oranges


Edit: and the merlin definitely has more targeting range than it has any logical need for.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#216 - 2013-03-18 11:44:21 UTC
How about this:

New Module

Name: Remote Electronic Damper

Hi slot module

Reduces the range of electronic warfare modules

Scripted for ECM / RSD / TD / TP / Web / Disruptor / Neut (maybe)

Short optimal (1km) Long Falloff (60km)

Short optimal and long falloff mean the module would never really be 100% effective

EAF's and Recons will have bonuses for use.

Would this help as a solid counter to EWAR
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#217 - 2013-03-18 11:59:51 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
Well ECM is OP, a TD can be countered by flying better, being jammed can not. Strong Ewar is nessecary for interesting fits. Why should every pvp ship be 1 web scram and prop?

ECM was OP, now its just annoying as hell, but that is something that won't change until the underlying mechanic is changed .. one has a fair shake against unbonused users and know what's expected when there are bonuses landing on grid.
Strong eWar does add some flavour, but there is a rather broad line (ie. not fine at all) between adding flavour and being OP. As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and TD?

ECM is still very viable on unbonused hulls in the frigate/destroyer sphere as sensors without the militia implants are ****-poor for the most part, against larger hulls however you do need bonuses to make a difference .. TD's on the other hand will reduce everything from a faction fit marauder to a pirate frig to a waste of time regardless of platform used and it does that at optimals greater than what is achievable with ECM (on bonused hulls!).

Question: If ECM was broken due to being too effective at too great ranges on too many hulls, what does that make TD's?

As for the matter at hand, since we have moved completely away from commenting on the thread topic, am I to assume that all that needed to be said has been said? Big smile



Ecm problem is not how effective they are. Its how IRRITATING and BORING and how it made people not want to play anymore!

This is a game, and FUN comes before REAL balance. If a mechanic is not fun (liek the old Doomsdays AOE) it must be changed.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#218 - 2013-03-18 12:09:03 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
Well ECM is OP, a TD can be countered by flying better, being jammed can not. Strong Ewar is nessecary for interesting fits. Why should every pvp ship be 1 web scram and prop?

ECM was OP, now its just annoying as hell, but that is something that won't change until the underlying mechanic is changed .. one has a fair shake against unbonused users and know what's expected when there are bonuses landing on grid.
Strong eWar does add some flavour, but there is a rather broad line (ie. not fine at all) between adding flavour and being OP. As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and TD?

ECM is still very viable on unbonused hulls in the frigate/destroyer sphere as sensors without the militia implants are ****-poor for the most part, against larger hulls however you do need bonuses to make a difference .. TD's on the other hand will reduce everything from a faction fit marauder to a pirate frig to a waste of time regardless of platform used and it does that at optimals greater than what is achievable with ECM (on bonused hulls!).

Question: If ECM was broken due to being too effective at too great ranges on too many hulls, what does that make TD's?

As for the matter at hand, since we have moved completely away from commenting on the thread topic, am I to assume that all that needed to be said has been said? Big smile



Ecm problem is not how effective they are. Its how IRRITATING and BORING and how it made people not want to play anymore!

This is a game, and FUN comes before REAL balance. If a mechanic is not fun (liek the old Doomsdays AOE) it must be changed.



Only real problem with ECM these days is that ECM drones are still massively broken.. Other then that its not so bad.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#219 - 2013-03-18 12:40:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Spugg Galdon wrote:
How about this:


Name: Remote Electronic Damper
Hi slot module

Reduces the range of electronic warfare modules
Scripted for ECM / RSD / TD / TP / Web / Disruptor / Neut (maybe)

Short optimal (1km) Long Falloff (60km)

Short optimal and long falloff mean the module would never really be 100% effective
EAF's and Recons will have bonuses for use.
Would this help as a solid counter to EWAR



Please, no more terrible chance-based mechanics. Are you sure you understand how falloff works?
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#220 - 2013-03-18 13:56:52 UTC
Deerin wrote:
What are the changes of swapping the tracking bonus with a falloff bonus on firetail?


Maybe it should have both bonuses. This would make it at least also useful for kiting tasks. The Dramiel has it (and it also has drones). It would make sense to have a falloff bonus to the firetail in addition to the tracking speed bonus.