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New blog: All quiet on the EVE Launcher front?

First post First post
Author
CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#241 - 2013-03-18 10:46:12 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Here's a thought - stop making the client grow to unwieldy sizes! For example - adding code so that character make can be run while the rest of the download is in progress. Creating a character is such an incredibly small part of the EVE experience, in terms of time, that adding yet more bloated code to the package is ridiculous. We expect to have to wait for the download to complete before we start using it.

Drop code that isn't needed. CQ - serves no purpose. Drop it.

Implement better coding practices. Companies can do better at squeezing code. They just put the thought of code bloat aside until they hit the bandwidth/disk image wall. Then they are trapped by a mountain of bloated legacy code.

THE last thing I want on my PC is BitTorrent.

Do something we really want - toon switching without re-launch of client. THAT would be useful.

I understand your point, but I have to point out that the code part that you keep referring to is actually very small, in the region of ~6MB for the code we've written. There are of course other code resources but the majority of the client is art and audio assets (approximately 11GB)
CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#242 - 2013-03-18 10:46:35 UTC
AenS wrote:
BitTorrent: Ok why not.
And Thanks for keeping the old way as well!
Just one little thing, -its not mentioned anywhere in the devblog nor this topic-

Implement : Proxy settings !!!

I can't use the current launcher at work because of that...My only workaround is this:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2047931#post2047931

with this:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1689275#post1689275 (when the links in the thread are actually up to date)

SO please, make the life easy for everyone :)


Thank you for your attention!

This is actually a very good point.
CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#243 - 2013-03-18 11:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Atropos
Stray Bullets wrote:
Haven't seen a single point as to why this should be enabled by default.

Either CCP presents a valid point on why I have to share my bandwidth or I'm just blocking it's peer to peer outgoing traffic. I really don't care about faster download ... it's fast enough as it is. If it's for cutting costs on the expense of bandwidth I paid for personal use, then it's a simple no.

The issues this "feature" raises versus the advantages this presents to the user are completely crap. All the technical aspect of the new launcher can be achieved without using P2P. P2P is just convenient as it allows to shave some costs of publishing the end product.

There are a few reasons why I wanted to go with Bittorrent, and none of them revolve around cost.

To explain, every time we patch, there are many people who exist behind restrictive proxies or bad networks that simply can't update their EVE client, with the only recourse being to fully re-download the entire thing. You can see what I mean if you take a spin through some of the other forums, for example here (21 pages), here (16 pages) and here (5 pages).

We have also seen people in various parts of the world getting low transfer rates, which compound the problem for a large client download. By implementing BitTorrent we can work towards solving both of these problems by using a protocol and framework that has been designed and tested for distributing large amounts of data. We no longer have to maintain a custom library, and can benefit from the wisdom of others, whilst also reducing my own burden of having to provide patches as a fallback, for people (which is an imperfect solution as it is).

We also have a nice technical benefit of being able to phase out the Repair Tool and SisiLauncher, further reducing our technical burden, since the single EVE Launcher will be able to service all these roles.

I understand that you don't want to help out other players, or open yourself up to any perceived vulnerabilities, but we're trying to help all the players, including the large quantity of people who simply don't read or comment on these forums. Those saying that "this will do nothing for me" are the lucky ones who are currently in a position where everything works as intended. I wish all our customers would be there, but unfortunately they aren't, and we have to provide a solution to help them play the game.
Wodensun
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#244 - 2013-03-18 13:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Wodensun
iskflakes wrote:
Wodensun wrote:
just make a bloody capture of the network trafic with wireshark


It's against the EULA to decode the network traffic.. CCP already thought of that one :P


Its trafic moving over _my_ network I can do with it what I want CCPs EULA means **** in this case.

Tippia wrote:
Wodensun wrote:
just make a bloody capture of the network trafic with wireshark
…or just read the line in full and understand that no information is being shared anyway. Either way works.


I'd consider a list of IPs that run eve clients information. I'd also consider a IP personally identifiable information the fact that you cant think of a attack scenario doesnt make it any less valid of a concern.

because no one ever tied a IP to a person and used it to dox/dos/ect him Roll Theres a reason most BT clients do protocol encryption and bind to different ports on startup

Quote:
Protocol encryption (PE), message stream encryption (MSE), or protocol header encrypt (PHE)[1] are related features of some peer-to-peer file-sharing clients, including BitTorrent clients. They attempt to enhance privacy and confidentiality. In addition, they attempt to make traffic harder to identify by third parties including internet service providers (ISPs).


Now dont get me wrong I'm not against using the BT protocol since it definetly enhances the launcher but i'd like to see protocol encryption ect enabled by default. And the issue isnt the BT protocol itself BT is sound its disclosing information that can be used in further attacks when theres a simple solution to prevent that.

Do not give me likes them 101 likes arent a accident...

Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#245 - 2013-03-18 19:58:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Stray Bullets
CCP Atropos wrote:
Stray Bullets wrote:
Haven't seen a single point as to why this should be enabled by default.

Either CCP presents a valid point on why I have to share my bandwidth or I'm just blocking it's peer to peer outgoing traffic. I really don't care about faster download ... it's fast enough as it is. If it's for cutting costs on the expense of bandwidth I paid for personal use, then it's a simple no.

The issues this "feature" raises versus the advantages this presents to the user are completely crap. All the technical aspect of the new launcher can be achieved without using P2P. P2P is just convenient as it allows to shave some costs of publishing the end product.

There are a few reasons why I wanted to go with Bittorrent, and none of them revolve around cost.

To explain, every time we patch, there are many people who exist behind restrictive proxies or bad networks that simply can't update their EVE client, with the only recourse being to fully re-download the entire thing. You can see what I mean if you take a spin through some of the other forums, for example here (21 pages), here (16 pages) and here (5 pages).

We have also seen people in various parts of the world getting low transfer rates, which compound the problem for a large client download. By implementing BitTorrent we can work towards solving both of these problems by using a protocol and framework that has been designed and tested for distributing large amounts of data. We no longer have to maintain a custom library, and can benefit from the wisdom of others, whilst also reducing my own burden of having to provide patches as a fallback, for people (which is an imperfect solution as it is).

We also have a nice technical benefit of being able to phase out the Repair Tool and SisiLauncher, further reducing our technical burden, since the single EVE Launcher will be able to service all these roles.

I understand that you don't want to help out other players, or open yourself up to any perceived vulnerabilities, but we're trying to help all the players, including the large quantity of people who simply don't read or comment on these forums. Those saying that "this will do nothing for me" are the lucky ones who are currently in a position where everything works as intended. I wish all our customers would be there, but unfortunately they aren't, and we have to provide a solution to help them play the game.


Well, this actually doesn't addressed anything of what I said. There's still no valid point, for me, to have this enabled by default. Ok, so you have a customers who can't use the current launcher and BT will solve their problem. That's fine and very cool of you guys to figure out a solution for them. That solution however can't be using someone elses bandwidth to do so.

In all honesty, I don't care about CCPs burden, nor do I care about the problems of anyone else. It's their problem. I'm not their product publisher. I'm not responsible for the gaming experience that they have. What do I get out of allowing CCP access to my bandwidth? Nothing? The warm fuzzy feeling of helping out a fellow player?

All the technical details are valid but don't require you to enable BT by default on the launcher. It's a simple point. You put the option in, you seed whatever is needed. Anyone who wants to use BT, gets the added bonus of "sharing" bandwidth with anyone else that's either downloading using BT or explicitly said "I want to seed!".

I think that your description of the new launcher, working almost as a source control for the binaries, is awesome. I thank you for all the work you guys put into it, but I can't see one single reason as to why the BT part is ON by default.

Even though I have no lack of bandwidth or have any privacy issues, the lack of "real reasoning" from CCPs part, besides "helping out", leads to say I will be blocking all BT traffic on my computer. It will simply have to behave as if I'm in some campus and have no BT.

Sorry mate :)

Funny thing is, if it were off by default, I'd probably have it seeding permanently ;) It's basically my way of saying "I don't agree with the way this is being "forced"".
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#246 - 2013-03-18 20:51:30 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Here's a thought - stop making the client grow to unwieldy sizes! For example - adding code so that character make can be run while the rest of the download is in progress. Creating a character is such an incredibly small part of the EVE experience, in terms of time, that adding yet more bloated code to the package is ridiculous. We expect to have to wait for the download to complete before we start using it.

Drop code that isn't needed. CQ - serves no purpose. Drop it.

Implement better coding practices. Companies can do better at squeezing code. They just put the thought of code bloat aside until they hit the bandwidth/disk image wall. Then they are trapped by a mountain of bloated legacy code.

THE last thing I want on my PC is BitTorrent.

Do something we really want - toon switching without re-launch of client. THAT would be useful.

I understand your point, but I have to point out that the code part that you keep referring to is actually very small, in the region of ~6MB for the code we've written. There are of course other code resources but the majority of the client is art and audio assets (approximately 11GB)


"My part of EVE is special and should be included, everyone else is the problem" 6MB here, another 12MB there and whatdya know - code bloat.

"Create while download" will be yet another "Special feature" that will require downloading, updating, and bug fixing - a new support drain while there are many urgently needed new features and other bugs in existing features that are more highly utilized in everyday EVE play.

I say work on getting the game out of the way so we can play.


CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#247 - 2013-03-19 08:45:29 UTC
Stray Bullets wrote:
Funny thing is, if it were off by default, I'd probably have it seeding permanently ;) It's basically my way of saying "I don't agree with the way this is being "forced"".

And this is why we're providing the option to disable it. If we were truly forcing it, there wouldn't even be that option Blink
coolzero
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2013-03-19 08:52:07 UTC
another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients...
CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#249 - 2013-03-19 08:53:38 UTC
coolzero wrote:
another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients...

You can do this in the current EVE Launcher, on Windows, by using the import/export functionality in the settings menu. We actually want to move away from multiple installs so that this won't be something that you need to do.
coolzero
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2013-03-19 09:13:07 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
coolzero wrote:
another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients...

You can do this in the current EVE Launcher, on Windows, by using the import/export functionality in the settings menu. We actually want to move away from multiple installs so that this won't be something that you need to do.


ok didnt know about this option(i cant know everything right and any laucher/updater should do that by default :P )

and doing away with multible installs is fine with me as long as why i do it now is that the different installs have different graphics options(my booster doesnt need all the shiny graphics)

less install = also less room taken on HD


Kenpachi Viktor
Perkone
Caldari State
#251 - 2013-03-19 09:41:47 UTC
I currently have a steam install, and an non steam install. How will you enable the functionality to run Eve with or without steam using the same client install?

A war that would’ve involved 20,000 players, 75% of nullsec space, and hundreds of supercapitals was halted not by diplomacy, but by a game mechanic so dreadful that those who have experienced it previously have no desire to do so again. - Fix POS & SOV

Sinq Arnolles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2013-03-19 10:15:59 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
coolzero wrote:
another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients...

You can do this in the current EVE Launcher, on Windows, by using the import/export functionality in the settings menu. We actually want to move away from multiple installs so that this won't be something that you need to do.


Make it so I can set the client to a different monitor with a command line switch so I don't have to have a separate client so the settings are saved differently and I wouldn't be using multiple installations anymore.

You could do this before but I couldn't remember how to do it after I came back to the game.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#253 - 2013-03-19 10:57:47 UTC
Sinq Arnolles wrote:
CCP Atropos wrote:
coolzero wrote:
another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients...

You can do this in the current EVE Launcher, on Windows, by using the import/export functionality in the settings menu. We actually want to move away from multiple installs so that this won't be something that you need to do.


Make it so I can set the client to a different monitor with a command line switch so I don't have to have a separate client so the settings are saved differently and I wouldn't be using multiple installations anymore.

You could do this before but I couldn't remember how to do it after I came back to the game.



Easiest option is to junction the client to a new location. No extra space, but you're starting it from a new location, which means a new set of settings. http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Multiple_clients

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Sinq Arnolles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#254 - 2013-03-19 15:02:52 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Sinq Arnolles wrote:
CCP Atropos wrote:
coolzero wrote:
another option i like to see is when you have multy instals of the clients(like i have) that the launcher will download the update file to a central point so when you launch another client(launcher) it will see the updated file to use instead of they way its like now where it wont check and downloads the file again just for the other clients...

You can do this in the current EVE Launcher, on Windows, by using the import/export functionality in the settings menu. We actually want to move away from multiple installs so that this won't be something that you need to do.


Make it so I can set the client to a different monitor with a command line switch so I don't have to have a separate client so the settings are saved differently and I wouldn't be using multiple installations anymore.

You could do this before but I couldn't remember how to do it after I came back to the game.



Easiest option is to junction the client to a new location. No extra space, but you're starting it from a new location, which means a new set of settings. http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Multiple_clients

I already do this.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#255 - 2013-03-19 16:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: KIller Wabbit
Kenpachi Viktor wrote:
I currently have a steam install, and an non steam install. How will you enable the functionality to run Eve with or without steam using the same client install?


I have the exact schzoid installation as well. Will there be a migration path spelled out? I don't care whether I stay on Steam or completely off of it.
Oxigun
Halliburton Heavy Industries
#256 - 2013-03-19 17:15:22 UTC
Please:

1) Put a PERMANENT LINK on the launcher for Patch Notes.
2) Post Patch Notes EVERY TIME you update the client. I don't care if it's DUST only, put a blurb in there.

It's not my job to find out what you did to the game, it's your job to tell me what you did!

Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#257 - 2013-03-19 19:09:44 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Stray Bullets wrote:
Funny thing is, if it were off by default, I'd probably have it seeding permanently ;) It's basically my way of saying "I don't agree with the way this is being "forced"".

And this is why we're providing the option to disable it. If we were truly forcing it, there wouldn't even be that option Blink


You better than any player know that 95% of the community doesn't read blogs, doesn't read the forum and simply doesn't care. Enabling it by default is basically taking advantage of all those people to solve your distribution problems. Seems like a sleazy move any way you slice it.

If it's good, people will enable it and use it. There's no need to basically "sneak" this into the launcher.

My 2 cents. I'll still be blocking all BT traffic in my computer just in case ... I'm too lazy to actually check if your launcher is doing what you say it's doing! Big smile
The Baby-sitter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#258 - 2013-03-19 23:59:20 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Stray Bullets wrote:
Funny thing is, if it were off by default, I'd probably have it seeding permanently ;) It's basically my way of saying "I don't agree with the way this is being "forced"".

And this is why we're providing the option to disable it. If we were truly forcing it, there wouldn't even be that option Blink


C'Mon - we all know how this plays out. You default it - uninformed users don't switch it off. You get the benefit.

The ethical thing to do here is default to off and educate your user base.

Please don't play the big-brother game with your users!
Acks
RONA Corporation
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#259 - 2013-03-20 03:03:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Acks
CCP Atropos wrote:
BigDaddyMcFatSacks wrote:
want nothing to do with bit torrent or anything like that.

If I cant disable it completely and download from EVE servers, well this is where we are gonna part ways after all these years.

Can you elaborate on why you don't want to be part of it. We can't account for this response if it's just "because".


Ok ... This right here is where you (CCP) have fallen down so so so many times before.

If you are going to still have the current HTTP patch method for when the Torrent does not work, simply add a check box allowing users to "opt out" of the use of torrent technology.

It does not matter if a user has a solid technical reason why they do not want to use torrent technology, have some moral issue with it, or (as far as you may be concerned) are a member of the tinfoil hat club. If you give the users the option to opt out and use the tech that they already do and that you are planning on still supporting, you end all debate, push back, rabble rousing, or pitchfork wielding.


EDIT:
CCP Atropos wrote:
Stray Bullets wrote:
Funny thing is, if it were off by default, I'd probably have it seeding permanently ;) It's basically my way of saying "I don't agree with the way this is being "forced"".

And this is why we're providing the option to disable it. If we were truly forcing it, there wouldn't even be that option Blink


I got to page 8 before posting the above. After 8 pages of user posts and concerns and prog 10-12 dev responses nobody had said "You will be able to disable the torrent option". If you had thought to include that in the original post or included that in one of the first dev responses we would prob not now be on page 13. Big smileShockedBig smile
Tanegra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2013-03-20 22:46:06 UTC
Please include the ability to turn it off -- some of us live under repressive network administrators who block every port known to man... :-).