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[Odyssey] T1 Frigate Polish Pass and Naglfar fix

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Weasel Juice
Mayhem and Destruction
#81 - 2013-03-11 18:08:23 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
Oode22 wrote:
Bagehi wrote:

Rolling out a collection of tier 2 dreads with the alternate weapon system for each race would likely even things up with the tank preferences for cap fleets.


Good Idea man, they could do hybrids for caldari; missiles for minmatar; and like some sort of large drone like bigger then heavy drones for gallente and because they won't need their highs they could use them for logi, good idea, if only somebody thought of a ship like that sooner. P


Kinda a crap deal that Gallente have an entire ship type (or two: carriers and supers) devoted to their second weapon type. While everyone else gets the one, and Caldari gets the weapon type that needs work.


Amarr have their capitals dedicated to their secondary flavor: Tank+Cap
Caldari have their capitals dedicated to their secondary flavor: Tank+**** Cap
Minmatar have their capitals dedicated to.. well. Ok. You got me there.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#82 - 2013-03-11 18:11:07 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Caius Sivaris wrote:
Will you reimburse the SP I sunk in Citadel torps and cruise missiles?

I basically love the rebalance work, but I hate the impact on my SPs. The BC skill change will leave me with a Gallente BC 5 I have zero use for (I trained Gallente cruiser for angel ships, I have zero hybrid skills) and now the Naglfar changes will leave me with even more completely useless SP, that will still count toward my (stupidly expensive) clone cost.


No they won't. Don't even start this **** again, we're still getting threads from the damned Orca changes.


Yeah, you'll only get the SP back if you can persuade CCP to remove citadel missiles entirely. Which might not be the worst idea in the world... Lol
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-03-11 18:14:06 UTC
Weasel Juice wrote:
Bagehi wrote:

Also, Revelation has a 40% advantage over the Moros in optimal range. It is slightly tempered by the 18% decrease in falloff, but that is a rather impressive range advantage.

Vincent Gaines wrote:
Sieged Phoenix vs a Moros at 60km the Phoenix will win every time, unless the pilot is an idiot.

edit: unless you are saying it's superior va the rev only


The Phoenix is superior, unless the target is moving. Phoenix can't even get full damage on a siege-coasting dread.



Assuming skills at level 5, no implants and 3 faction damage mods and regular faction ammo.

Multifreq: 25.8+12.5 @ 10320 DPS
Plutonium: 25.8+18.8 @ 13007 DPS

Gamma: 32.2+12.5 @ 9460 DPS
Uranium: 30.9+18.8 @ 11825 DPS

X-Ray: 38.7+12.5 @ 8600 DPS
Thorium: 36.1+18.8 @ 10642 DPS

... ... ...

And for the upper end let's assume you run some optimal scripted tracking computers, since that's what you'll most likely do at sniping ranges:
Microwave: 102+24 @ 5160 DPS
Iron: 93.1+36 @ 5912 DPS
Radio: 116+24 @ 4300 DPS

Ontop of that the Moros gets 33% more tracking too. And a slot layout that allows for even better tracking speed, for hitting battleships even easier.


What Range advantage were you talking about again?

I think you're a Moros pilot and just don't your toy taken away.

:Edit:
The only range advantage you get from Revelation is if you're hitting deep in falloff of Radio. Yeah. That always happens.


Yeah, I drew out the dps curves to compare dreads with the proposed Nag changes. I didn't realize Revelations were that bad off. It looks like the Revelation will be the new "worst ship" after the Nag fix (with the exception of fighting subcaps with citadels, which is generally a terrible idea). Not having to pay for ammo really doesn't make up for the weak damage.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2013-03-11 18:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Yeah, frankly I'm quite disappointed that the Phoenix wasn't even given a single nod. CCP Fozzie HAS to know just how terrible citadel missiles are...

And the Rev could use a look too.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#85 - 2013-03-11 18:18:58 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yeah, frankly I'm quite disappointed that the Phoenix wasn't even given a single nod. CCP Fozzie HAS to know just how terrible citadel missiles are...

And the Rev could use a look too.


more like they could just undo the range increase on capital blasters
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2013-03-11 18:24:29 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Caius Sivaris wrote:
Will you reimburse the SP I sunk in Citadel torps and cruise missiles?

I basically love the rebalance work, but I hate the impact on my SPs. The BC skill change will leave me with a Gallente BC 5 I have zero use for (I trained Gallente cruiser for angel ships, I have zero hybrid skills) and now the Naglfar changes will leave me with even more completely useless SP, that will still count toward my (stupidly expensive) clone cost.


No they won't. Don't even start this **** again, we're still getting threads from the damned Orca changes.


Yeah, you'll only get the SP back if you can persuade CCP to remove citadel missiles entirely. Which might not be the worst idea in the world... Lol

We could try starting a "Hybrids for the Phoenixes" charity and see how much traction we can get?

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#87 - 2013-03-11 18:34:22 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Caius Sivaris wrote:
Will you reimburse the SP I sunk in Citadel torps and cruise missiles?

I basically love the rebalance work, but I hate the impact on my SPs. The BC skill change will leave me with a Gallente BC 5 I have zero use for (I trained Gallente cruiser for angel ships, I have zero hybrid skills) and now the Naglfar changes will leave me with even more completely useless SP, that will still count toward my (stupidly expensive) clone cost.


No they won't. Don't even start this **** again, we're still getting threads from the damned Orca changes.


Yeah, you'll only get the SP back if you can persuade CCP to remove citadel missiles entirely. Which might not be the worst idea in the world... Lol

We could try starting a "Hybrids for the Phoenixes" charity and see how much traction we can get?


Doubt Phoenix pilots would complain.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2013-03-11 18:40:00 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yeah, frankly I'm quite disappointed that the Phoenix wasn't even given a single nod. CCP Fozzie HAS to know just how terrible citadel missiles are...

And the Rev could use a look too.


more like they could just undo the range increase on capital blasters

Possibly.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#89 - 2013-03-11 18:40:37 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:


did you just say coraxes go fast? possibly while using light missiles and not being totally paper fit?


That is in fact the opposite of what I said. If anything, the Corax needs a fittings boost so that getting on both tank and dps on the same ship doesn't require gimping the fit (tbh, I'm perfectly okay with LML fits requiring DC/no tank to work).
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2013-03-11 18:40:59 UTC
:/ Can't we put Naglfar in a seperate sticky area. It is quite big of a subject.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Ouoman
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-03-11 18:42:21 UTC
How will the new Nag affect the current sov warfare meta? Aka cap blobs. Since:

a) most of null can fly alpha maels already and the skill req for dreads is being lowered to Racial BS4 there's a loooooot of people not too far off from flying an alpha nag.

b) Arty Nags with the new damage bonus and only a t2 fit with faction ammo easily put out ~100,000 damage alphas.

A Nag fleet as small as 40-50 alpha nags can hit siege and alpha a slowcat every 15 seconds at up to about 100km(70+168 for a ganky fit). Reps basically being ignored. If the hostiles escalated with supers and titans the Arty nags could theoretically blap a super or titan in 3-5 volleys. Smart target calling and target switching would play havoc on carriers trying to provide logi. Obviously it would be a war of attrition but an ArtyNag fleet could easily win the isk war.

I'm not a cap pilot so this is obviously theoretical.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#92 - 2013-03-11 18:56:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
Ouoman wrote:
How will the new Nag affect the current sov warfare meta? Aka cap blobs. Since:

(...) A Nag fleet as small as 40-50 alpha nags (...) If the hostiles escalated with supers and titans the Arty nags could theoretically blap a super or titan in 3-5 volleys. (...)

I'm not a cap pilot so this is obviously theoretical.


Let me correct this:

Assuming null sec and my area of space, if the we escalate with supers and titans the Arty nags will die to the DDs of 40-50 titans and the rest will die to the supers, soon after.

Big smile

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#93 - 2013-03-11 19:05:07 UTC
So the punisher is different how exactly?

The reason it dies now will still be the reason it dies after the patch, its slow and can't tackle anything.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Callic Veratar
#94 - 2013-03-11 19:09:18 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
Ouoman wrote:
How will the new Nag affect the current sov warfare meta? Aka cap blobs. Since:

(...) A Nag fleet as small as 40-50 alpha nags (...) If the hostiles escalated with supers and titans the Arty nags could theoretically blap a super or titan in 3-5 volleys. (...)

I'm not a cap pilot so this is obviously theoretical.


Let me correct this:

Assuming null sec and my area of space, if the we escalate with supers and titans the Arty nags will die to the DDs of 40-50 titans and the rest will die to the supers, soon after.

Big smile


I want to see this happen.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#95 - 2013-03-11 19:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Not trying to derail, but I've said "new utility high slots" 2x in this thread, so I'm going to shoot a few out that I think are realistic to implement in game mechanics terms as long as we have CCP Fozzies attention... Bear


Ideas for new Utility High Slots ::

Anti-Missile Laser System :: Replaces old defender missiles. Automatically zots incoming missiles. Can be target assigned to defend one target (self, or another targeted ship.) Might come in Small/Large size.

Fortified Ultra-relativistic Kinetic Counter-Electronic-Counter-Measure. (FUKC ECM)
Targeting System :: Allows you to keep a lock on ONE target THROUGH ANY ECM effects. Hard counter to ECM, takes a high slot, so it's a pretty important sacrifice vs Neuts, etc.

Revamped Auto-Targeting System Module :: Can be scripted to act as a Sensor Booster, ECCM or Additional Targets. Uses lots of capacitor and fitting than a normal ECCM/SB/etc. Somewhat of an "all-in-one", but MUST be scripted... so it's a take it or leave it with drawbacks. Auto Target module is all but useless except for fringe cases... might as well make it useful.

Target Lockbreaker - Forces one target to break its lock on all its targets. ECM chance for success, as other lockbreakers. does NOT cause a 20 sec jam to happen.

Signature Distortion Module
Using Stealth Technology, activating this module reduces the Signature Radius of a ship.

Where I am.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#96 - 2013-03-11 19:27:23 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


Not trying to derail, but I've said "new utility high slots" 2x in this thread, so I'm going to shoot a few out that I think are realistic to implement in game mechanics terms as long as we have CCP Fozzies attention... Bear


Ideas for new Utility High Slots ::

Anti-Missile Laser System :: Replaces old defender missiles. Automatically zots incoming missiles. Can be target assigned to defend one target (self, or another targeted ship.) Might come in Small/Large size.

Fortified Ultra-relativistic Kinetic Counter Electronic-Counter-Measure. (FUKC ECM)
Targeting System :: Allows you to keep a lock on ONE target THROUGH ANY ECM effects. Hard counter to ECM, takes a high slot, so it's a pretty important sacrifice vs Neuts, etc.

Revamped Auto-Targeting System Module :: Can be scripted to act as a Sensor Booster, ECCM or Additional Targets. Uses lots of capacitor and fitting than a normal ECCM/SB/etc. Somewhat of an "all-in-one", but MUST be scripted... so it's a take it or leave it with drawbacks. Auto Target module is all but useless except for fringe cases... might as well make it useful.

Target Lockbreaker - Forces one target to break its lock on all its targets. ECM chance for success, as other lockbreakers. does NOT cause a 20 sec jam to happen.

Signature Distortion Module
Using Stealth Technology, activating this module reduces the Signature Radius of a ship.



You forgot the Star Trek Module, which redirects power from shields to engines while active.
Callic Veratar
#97 - 2013-03-11 19:27:34 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


Not trying to derail, but I've said "new utility high slots" 2x in this thread, so I'm going to shoot a few out that I think are realistic to implement in game mechanics terms as long as we have CCP Fozzies attention... Bear



Also High Slot Target Painter.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#98 - 2013-03-11 19:32:24 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:


Not trying to derail, but I've said "new utility high slots" 2x in this thread, so I'm going to shoot a few out that I think are realistic to implement in game mechanics terms as long as we have CCP Fozzies attention... Bear



Also High Slot Target Painter.


It would be cool, but wouldn't really do anything about a utility high slot being significantly less valuable for a frigate at present than pretty much any other kind. I would happily trade my rifter's utility high for a 4 mid or low slot right now, because the marginal utility of a nos over web+TD or dual prop or dual rep or any number of other combinations enabled by an additional low/mid just doesn't measure up.
FistyMcBumBasher
State War Academy
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-03-11 19:34:35 UTC  |  Edited by: FistyMcBumBardier
CCP Fozzie wrote:


TORMENTOR:
+1 PWG
+50 Armor
+25 Capacitor
+12.5 Cap Recharge Time
Cap/s unchanged
+15 Velocity
+0.05 Agility
-100000 Mass
-0.24s Align time


Entire ship stats:

TORMENTOR:
Frigate skill bonuses: +5% to small energy turret damage and -10% to small energy turret capacitor use per level
Slot layout: 3H, 3M, 4L; 3 turrets, 0 launchers.
Fittings: 50 (+1) PWG, 130 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350 / 500 (+50) / 400
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 425 (+25) / 212.5 s (+12.5) / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 335 (+15) / 3.1 (+0.05) / 1080000 (-100000) / 3.13 s (-0.24)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km / 620 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Radar
Signature radius: 35


Have you considered increasing the drone bay of the tormentor to 20m3 to allow it to fit an extra flight? Since that 10m3 is capable of supplying the ship with 39 extra dps (using hobgoblin II's at all 5's), enough dps so that if you lose your flight of drones you are essentially gimped.

Other than me wanting a larger drone bay, this and the rest of the tweaks look extremely great. I knew that the lack of posts from your team meant you guys were working hard. Keep up the good work!
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#100 - 2013-03-11 20:05:07 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:

We could try starting a "Hybrids for the Phoenixes" charity and see how much traction we can get?


Thing is though, how would you make it different to the Moros, yet still make both useful? Bonuses to damage and optimal maybe? Or damage and shield resists?