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New blog: All quiet on the EVE Launcher front?

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Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#21 - 2013-03-11 15:53:34 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
We pay you to provide the eve service.

You should be sending out the eve data from servers you pay for not stealing bandwidth off customers.
disgraceful.

Is ccp having funding issues ?


The issues this change addresses are technical in nature. Without understanding the problem from a technical perspective, it's highly unlikely that you'll understand the fix for it. You should consider this thought before posting next time.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#22 - 2013-03-11 15:54:44 UTC
SamuraiJack wrote:
Oh and for the love of god. put the "Patchnotes" link back on the launcher. Its murder to find on the site.

Idea This...

Where I am.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#23 - 2013-03-11 15:55:34 UTC
Can you change the default patch download dir to something global? Right now i need to manually copy&paste to every client :S (Or use the export/import function wish is even worse)
Also one client that supports multiple eve windows with different settings would be SUPER!

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-03-11 15:55:42 UTC
I can see problems with using BitTorrent straight away, particularly for those of us in Australia on Telstra. If the traffic is encrypted, though, it's easy to bypass.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#25 - 2013-03-11 15:58:13 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Are you going to have back up protocols for the Torrent in cases where Torrent is not available?

Seems like most companies do have backups even if it's "slower".


The backup seems to be HTTP 1.1.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-03-11 16:00:38 UTC
CCP Aporia wrote:
Aethlyn wrote:
Sounds interesting. I just hope you include your own torrent handling and don't use any abomination such as that dreaded Pando Media Booster. :)

Also, I'd suggest by default the launcher should ask on first start, whether it should use bittorrent connections or just classic HTTP, because at least in Germany, some ISPs (like universities or some mobile providers) don't like to see P2P traffic and will rightout block, slowdown or sanctionize it (e.g. by cutting your internet access if there're too high P2P Transfers). Always think of unaware/non-savy computer users/players.


We are not using Pando Media Booster or anything like that. The launcher is using it's own mechanism, which is based on a publically available torrent client library. By default it will use HTTP as transport as well as BitTorrent, so you should be all good even when you cannot use any P2P traffic.
This is also one of the reasons why we want to bring it to a test server near you soon, so that we can gain more experience with how the mechanism would perform for people behind restrictive firewalls / ISPs.


As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Zaknussem
Everybody Loves Donuts
#27 - 2013-03-11 16:01:01 UTC
SamuraiJack wrote:
Oh and for the love of god. put the "Patchnotes" link back on the launcher. Its murder to find on the site.


You mean to tell me that it was there, but it was removed?

Why?
Charles Javeroux
INTERSTELLAR CREDIT
#28 - 2013-03-11 16:02:26 UTC
I find the lack of graphs in this devblog disturbing
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-03-11 16:03:04 UTC
SamuraiJack wrote:
That alone makes CCP's implementation of this much better than most Torrent installers. Flooding out your upstream just throttles your connection as you cannot send commands due to data floods. Shame Blizzard never took that onboard.

From my experience over the past years, I really think that's intentional and not just happens: Your download slows down as you Approach 99% and the last few bytes take forever (at least for me; not talking about SC2/D3 patching; only their standalone torrent stuff). Once your sharing ratio approaches 1.0 the last few bytes are completed. Something like that is really stupid, especially for people on asynchronous lines (e.g. my upstream is less than 10% of my downstream). Luckily you could trick their implementation by simply restarting the client.

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-03-11 16:04:25 UTC
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
We pay you to provide the eve service.

You should be sending out the eve data from servers you pay for not stealing bandwidth off customers.
disgraceful.

Is ccp having funding issues ?


The issues this change addresses are technical in nature. Without understanding the problem from a technical perspective, it's highly unlikely that you'll understand the fix for it. You should consider this thought before posting next time.


I don't think he even read the full blog. The lower half directly addresses this concern. But I wasn't going to respond to him, either. I find it too tiresome to feed the trolls these days.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#31 - 2013-03-11 16:06:29 UTC
Karl Mattar wrote:
Is there any way you can set the launcher to launch multiple eve windows for those of us who run two (or more) accounts at the same time? Configurable with different settings for monitors?

I have two monitors. They are different sizes. It is quite the pain to start everything up because the settings don't hold over from session to session. Whichever session I closed last is how it all starts up again.

Otherwise, I have no issues with this proposal at all.



While it's not quite what you're asking for, the junction method works pretty well for this, without using additional space.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Multiple_clients

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-03-11 16:09:58 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine.

Unfortunately, it's not that easy. There are still obvious things happening like high upload and (possibly) many outbound connections at the same time. Also encryption slows down the whole thing and makes it more CPU intensive, because the data has to be en-/decrypted as well. A simple toggle to select the download strategy is a lot easier to implement and use (even if you only use HTTP you still get the error checking, file verification, etc.).

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#33 - 2013-03-11 16:10:03 UTC
While you're working on the launcher how about using good ol SetForegroundWindow to bring the old launcher to the front when you try to launch a new launcher and an existing launcher is still launched. Rather than that pain in the ass error message.
CCP Aporia
C C P
C C P Alliance
#34 - 2013-03-11 16:10:47 UTC
Turelus wrote:
Will you still offer a non bit-torrent option for people who's ISP's cap all P2P transfers?


Yes, HTTP will still be utilized.

Friend of walking avatars, currently hibernating until he gets to open that door.
CCP Aporia
C C P
C C P Alliance
#35 - 2013-03-11 16:12:28 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Just a random idea, but why should upload stop the exact moment that a particular customer's Launcher has finished downloading? Why not continue uploading for a small period of time after that, as an automated setting, such as 90 minutes? Or if not as an automated setting, then as a user-configurable option?

I'd not want to have upload available all the time, but something like the duration of my download plus X minutes would be an option that I'd be happy to utilize.


By default you only upload while you download, at a fairly low rate. If you want you can check an option that makes you seed for longer. Good idea about maybe adding a timer to this in the future, but for right now we'd like to see this go out and work in the wild before making further changes.

Friend of walking avatars, currently hibernating until he gets to open that door.
Phext
SIGBUS
#36 - 2013-03-11 16:18:04 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine.


ISPs may throttle well known BT port ranges (TCP 6881-6889 is used for transport). They don't necessarily need to look into the traffic. One may bypass this throttling by using different port ranges.

:wq!
Wodensun
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-03-11 16:20:32 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine.


That is not entirely acurate

Quote:
Trackers manage files by their SHA-1 (aka infohash). The extension specifies that a tracker RC4-encrypt the peer list with a key of SHA-1(infohash). Thus, a peer must know the infohash of the file they are requesting to decrypt the peer list. Obviously, they have the infohash since they had to know it to look up the file in the first place.

There are a couple weaknesses in this design. If an ISP can read the infohash from the peer’s tracker connection, then they can also decrypt the peer list. This is mitigated by some trackers supporting SSL connections. Also, the specification allows for reuse of the RC4 keystream, a definite no-no.

Do not give me likes them 101 likes arent a accident...
Wodensun
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-03-11 16:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Wodensun
Phext wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
As far as I'm aware, if P2P traffic is encrypted, ISP's can't read it as P2P traffic and cannot throttle it. If you use data encryption, it should work fine.


ISPs may throttle well known BT port ranges (TCP 6881-6889 is used for transport). They don't necessarily need to look into the traffic. One may bypass this throttling by using different port ranges.


Bollocks they use DPI for traffic shaping not port ranges.

Quote:
Deep Packet Inspection (DPI) (also called complete packet inspection and Information eXtraction - IX -) is a form of computer network packet filtering that examines the data part (and possibly also the header) of a packet as it passes an inspection point, searching for protocol non-compliance, viruses, spam, intrusions, or defined criteria to decide whether the packet may pass or if it needs to be routed to a different destination, or, for the purpose of collecting statistical information.

Do not give me likes them 101 likes arent a accident...
TheNewestTwin
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#39 - 2013-03-11 16:25:11 UTC
Why don't they change their team name from Team Special Circumstances to Team AAA seeing as the names of the people in this team all start with the letter A. CCP Aporia, CCP Atropos, CCP Aita.... please Big smile

-A-
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#40 - 2013-03-11 16:26:07 UTC
Aethlyn wrote:
SamuraiJack wrote:
That alone makes CCP's implementation of this much better than most Torrent installers. Flooding out your upstream just throttles your connection as you cannot send commands due to data floods. Shame Blizzard never took that onboard.

From my experience over the past years, I really think that's intentional and not just happens: Your download slows down as you Approach 99% and the last few bytes take forever (at least for me; not talking about SC2/D3 patching; only their standalone torrent stuff). Once your sharing ratio approaches 1.0 the last few bytes are completed. Something like that is really stupid, especially for people on asynchronous lines (e.g. my upstream is less than 10% of my downstream). Luckily you could trick their implementation by simply restarting the client.


this isn't the fault of the protocol, its the client. Clients try to maintain 1.0 share ratio to keep the network healthy. In CCPs case its entirely different. The network is always healthy since CCP will obviously keep the servers up which upload 24/7.

maybe i am wrong but i don't think that CCP wants to use bittorrent because they have bandwidth issues on patch day - it really sounds like all they want is a more reliable protocol.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value