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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Lili Lu
#2521 - 2013-03-04 22:21:37 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
The point im making is that resist bonus is too strong at doing everything and as a result ships like the prophecy is a better active tanker than the gal bc's which kind of defeats the point of the gal bc's having a rep bonus.
Therefore replace the resist bonus with a hp bonus thus making the prophecy better at buffer tanking and allowing the gal bc's to be better active tankers.

Unfortunately this would not fix the active armor tanking bonus. It would still suck. And it would only cause further problems with BC shield regen setups in pve. Also, as I said there is some consistency to CCP design choices. The resist bonuses are an Amarr and Caldari thing. But nothing says they have to stay at the same percentages.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2522 - 2013-03-04 23:27:36 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Unfortunately this would not fix the active armor tanking bonus. It would still suck. And it would only cause further problems with BC shield regen setups in pve. Also, as I said there is some consistency to CCP design choices. The resist bonuses are an Amarr and Caldari thing. But nothing says they have to stay at the same percentages.

The active repping bonus is ok - it's just that the Amarr ships fill the same active repping niche. Myrm - one trick repping pony. Prophecy - one trick repping pony and a whole lot more.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2523 - 2013-03-05 00:32:16 UTC
The goal is to balance ships, not bonuses. The myrmidon still have far more firepower than the prophecy and 5 mid slots, and and the brutix still have 6 overbonused hybrid turrets on the second fastest BC hull.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2524 - 2013-03-05 05:56:25 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The goal is to balance ships, not bonuses. The myrmidon still have far more firepower than the prophecy and 5 mid slots, and and the brutix still have 6 overbonused hybrid turrets on the second fastest BC hull.




Yes but ignoring the fact that as soon as you take on 2 people those active tanks fail horribly, regardless of how much awesome dps you're putting out. Which to be quite honest, if you're filling all of your lows with tank to keep yourself alive in that "lol active armor tank" setup, you're not really hitting that much harder than a buffed BC. However, that buffed BC has a whole lot much more ehp for those 2 guys to chew through with no chance of their combined dps breaking through your reps. So in a 1 v 2, I still find myself wanting a healthy buffer tank.


Also, everyone who keeps rejoicing saying the AAR is the saving grace for the brutix and myrm....pull your head out of the sand. We're limited to 1 module that is still underpowered. And don't fool yourself, one extra low slot on the Brutix is still bad and no changes have been made to the standard reppers. We've been spoon fed a bunch of lies to trick ourselves into thinking the Brutix would by viable again in this grand "new" role that never got buffed or changed

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2525 - 2013-03-05 12:46:45 UTC
I've heard about myrmidon tanking small fleet fine *before* these changes...

And the AAR is not *the* savior of myrm or brutix, it's the cherry on the cake considering all the changes they got.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2526 - 2013-03-05 15:01:09 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


Would you not think an HP bonus as a replacement to resist bonus would be a better option as it then makes gal bc's better at repping than a resist based active tank? and to a lesser extent same for cal vs minnie shield boost bonus.


Just nerf the resistance bonus from 5% to 4% per level and lets move on folks.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2527 - 2013-03-05 16:52:24 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The goal is to balance ships, not bonuses. The myrmidon still have far more firepower than the prophecy and 5 mid slots, and and the brutix still have 6 overbonused hybrid turrets on the second fastest BC hull.

The funny thing is that for a given active repping level, the Prophesy can put out about as much dps as the Myrm (it can replace a resistance mod for a damage mod), rep about as much, and have 20% more buffer EHP.

Dual Rep Prophecy: (baseline fit to compare, put drone damage amp in extra low slot): 635 dps, 623 rep dps, 50k EHP
Dual Rep Myrm: (baseline fit to compare): 650 dps, 642 rep dps, 41.2k EHP

Prophecy: 15 dps less, 19 dps rep less, 8.8k EHP more, one less midslot.

So, wouldn't you say that the Prophecy invades the Myrm's "active repping niche" a little too much?
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2528 - 2013-03-05 21:30:32 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The goal is to balance ships, not bonuses. The myrmidon still have far more firepower than the prophecy and 5 mid slots, and and the brutix still have 6 overbonused hybrid turrets on the second fastest BC hull.

The funny thing is that for a given active repping level, the Prophesy can put out about as much dps as the Myrm (it can replace a resistance mod for a damage mod), rep about as much, and have 20% more buffer EHP.

Dual Rep Prophecy: (baseline fit to compare, put drone damage amp in extra low slot): 635 dps, 623 rep dps, 50k EHP
Dual Rep Myrm: (baseline fit to compare): 650 dps, 642 rep dps, 41.2k EHP

Prophecy: 15 dps less, 19 dps rep less, 8.8k EHP more, one less midslot.

So, wouldn't you say that the Prophecy invades the Myrm's "active repping niche" a little too much?


Prophecy is good, it should be as both are armour Drone battle cruisers they always would be similar and I really feel the rep bonus could have been 10% or arguably the resistance bonus could be considered overpowered and be dropped to 4%.

In its defence Myrm is still pretty solid and is more than a one trick pony in fact the only battlecruiser I would not like to fight in it is the Prophecy mainly down to the complete slugging match it would be and the fact that when you start trying to pick of each other’s drone’s it gets real fiddly fast.

Triple Rep fit - I have seen the prophecy fits, they either lose full tackle or cannot fit dual cap boosters and the Myrm still had more DPS.

Dual Rep + RAH fit is solid and Myrms extra mid which is often overlooked can be used for more cap or E-war/Drone upgrades

Plate and Rep fit - this is actually my fave as it has 57k EHP and a rep to top up plus midslot E-war

50k EHP 1105dps Shield fit.

1000+dps tank dual XL-ASB fit (stat with both running)

And yes most of those fits can go on the prophecy perhaps losing a little DPS, Utility, gaining EHP and it is arguably a better fleet and on grid warfare link platform.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2529 - 2013-03-05 22:43:08 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
The funny thing is that for a given active repping level, the Prophesy can put out about as much dps as the Myrm (it can replace a resistance mod for a damage mod), rep about as much, and have 20% more buffer EHP.

Dual Rep Prophecy: (baseline fit to compare, put drone damage amp in extra low slot): 635 dps, 623 rep dps, 50k EHP
Dual Rep Myrm: (baseline fit to compare): 650 dps, 642 rep dps, 41.2k EHP

Prophecy: 15 dps less, 19 dps rep less, 8.8k EHP more, one less midslot.

So, wouldn't you say that the Prophecy invades the Myrm's "active repping niche" a little too much?

Interesting numbers in fact, though I wouldn't say that. I think you found there the breaking point between the two hulls : they are here about the same, but then, if you start to maximize tank, the prophecy should be better, but if you maximize dps, the myrm should take the lead (I guessing that, I didn't run the numbers).

This on top of the fifth mid slot (not to overlook IMO) differenciate the hulls.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2530 - 2013-03-06 00:42:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
So a triple rep Mrym example fit: So as we all know it reps roughly in the mid 800's (depending on skills) until cap runs out or drops significantly while reloading the paste. EHP is 38K. With everything running about 8m 42 sec of cap. Yes, stable once MWD is off, but that will not always be the case. DPS with Ogres/guns: 547 if they ever get to your targets. Still have an explosive weakness, so you always shoot explosive at triple rep Mryms.(55% explosive resist) [I didn't overheat in the examples just to keep it simple, obviously you can over heat but the relative comparison is the same.}

[Myrmidon, triple rep]
Damage Control II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5
Ogre II x4
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

Now the Prophecy triple repped: 45KEHP (so higher than Mrym), ~ 790's repping (so a bit less than Mrym but more on this), DPS 521 with 2 Ogre, 2 Hammer, 1 Hob. (so just a bit less but I'll get back to this), BUT it also has a Medium Neut which is AWESOME. AND it can run EVERYTHING (including the Neut) for 21 minutes. That's serious cap power and is much stronger against keeping its reppers going against enemy neuts. And to me this is a huge advantage in an armor repping boat. So while it lacks the web, that neut will crush a close in tackler hard. Turn off the MWD and the Neut and see how many Neuts you need to shut down the reppers! It also has 70% Explosive resist, so it actually has higher repping power if the enemy is shooting explosive at you vice in a Mrym.

ALSO: Its DPS is higher in reality than the Mrym when using a full flight of light or mediums which you might certainly opt for against frigs and cruisers respectively because unlike the Mrym it still has space for a DDA in the lows. Also I find it much more profitable to use all mediums vice a couple of heavies because they get to targets so much faster and this time saving translates into effectively much higher DPS than the heavies. Not to mention the Prophecy has a much better selection of drone combinations to choose from due to its ample drone bay size.

Flat out this is the best triple rep boat because more than likely against anyone who can select damage you will out tank the Mrym, its cap is much stronger, and in many situations (though not all) you will actually out DPS it, (against frigs/cruisers for sure, often even against larger targets.) Oh and you have a Med Neut. So great boat, flexible, tanks well buffer or rep. VERY COOL. ( PLEASE DON't NERF IT!)

[Prophecy, active]
Damage Control II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hobgoblin II x1
Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2
Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

SOOOOO........Get rid of the armor rep bonus on the MYRM and give it a bonus to drone speed and drone tracking as the second bonus,. FIXED, AWESOME. DO IT FOZZIE!..... you know you want to.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2531 - 2013-03-06 04:00:16 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Interesting numbers in fact, though I wouldn't say that. I think you found there the breaking point between the two hulls : they are here about the same, but then, if you start to maximize tank, the prophecy should be better, but if you maximize dps, the myrm should take the lead (I guessing that, I didn't run the numbers).

This on top of the fifth mid slot (not to overlook IMO) differenciate the hulls.
I still maintain the difference between the two hulls, in the Myrm's intended active repping role, is too small. The Myrm's niche is miniscule. The Prophecy in its intended niche (large buffer tank drone boat) clearly outperforms the Myrm.

That said, the Myrm is still a great boat. The only point is that it does not have a clearly defined niche.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#2532 - 2013-03-06 09:18:18 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:


That said, the Myrm is still a great boat. The only point is that it does not have a clearly defined niche.


I'm really not keen on a Myrm with a drone tracking/speed bonus. BCs shouldn't be too good at whacking frigates, in the same way that neither Drake nor Cyclone get bonuses to RLMLs.

I think the Myrm should have a clearer mobility advantage over the Prophecy - if the Myrm is intended for small-scale combat where the rep bonus is a useful option - yeah yeah ASBs Big smile - then it needs to have an appropriate mobility advantage over the Prophecy. As it is, a shield Prophecy is faster and more agile than an active armour Myrm, which seems a bit silly.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2533 - 2013-03-06 12:35:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Gypsio III wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:


That said, the Myrm is still a great boat. The only point is that it does not have a clearly defined niche.


I'm really not keen on a Myrm with a drone tracking/speed bonus. BCs shouldn't be too good at whacking frigates, in the same way that neither Drake nor Cyclone get bonuses to RLMLs.

I think the Myrm should have a clearer mobility advantage over the Prophecy - if the Myrm is intended for small-scale combat where the rep bonus is a useful option - yeah yeah ASBs Big smile - then it needs to have an appropriate mobility advantage over the Prophecy. As it is, a shield Prophecy is faster and more agile than an active armour Myrm, which seems a bit silly.


I hear you, but again its strange to me that what is supposed to be one of the major differences between an Amarr Drone Boat and a Gal one is that the Gal boats have much higher DPS, but in the case of the Mrym when tanked the way its designed to, it under-performs the Prophecy when utilizing a flight of lights or mediums. You combine this with its massive drone bay and superior tank (both active or buffer) and its not working right in my opinion. Saying that, I'm not for nerfing the Proph, its a great boat but the Mrym needs something to make it worth flying over the proph, right now, its absolutely not if you want to active rep.

As far as being too good against frigs, well drone boats have always been a tough nut for frigs but not impossible because drones can still die. But the problem with the Mrym and 4 heavies is that in many engagements those 4 heavies simply never reach the target. You could use 4 sentries but they are a huge pain in the ass and then really don't match BC combat well, and the dps is rather anemic particularly when unbonused. The drone speed and tracking would make it a bit better, still be in line with drone stuff, and make it match better.

I love the shield Mrym, but it took a hit in shield ehp and is so squishy and the drones don't match well with the faster shield set up so why not just fly a drake or something? As you said its just not filling any role right now and the fact that its an inferior drone BC to the Amarr one makes no sense to me what so ever.

Now I'm just waiting for CCP to come out with the drone Amarr BS which will have the armor resist bonus also, and you know it will have 5 heavies. It will quickly fade the Dominix out like the proph is going to do to the Mrym.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2534 - 2013-03-06 12:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
i don't think many people are happy with the bc rebalance...... it seems kind of rushed and deliberately left untouched for the most part and the bits they have touched seem poorly thought out , i would love an explanation as to the sig radius nerf as if they weren't big enough for battleships to hit.

Only ships that came out of this with anything beneficial is the prophecy and cyclone.
The ferox got a little but is still overshadowed by the superior drake :((

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2535 - 2013-03-06 18:23:26 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


Only ships that came out of this with anything beneficial is the prophecy and cyclone.
The ferox got a little but is still overshadowed by the superior drake :((


Brutix is significantly better than it was pre 1.1. It can fit ions and dual reps w/o the use of an acr now, it's faster, and has another lowslot for a mag stab. Overall the dps and mobility has been increased, as well as overall cap efficiency (1 less turret and room for a nos).
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2536 - 2013-03-06 22:45:48 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


Only ships that came out of this with anything beneficial is the prophecy and cyclone.
The ferox got a little but is still overshadowed by the superior drake :((


Brutix is significantly better than it was pre 1.1. It can fit ions and dual reps w/o the use of an acr now, it's faster, and has another lowslot for a mag stab. Overall the dps and mobility has been increased, as well as overall cap efficiency (1 less turret and room for a nos).


It still can't tank to save its life even with the AAR and shield tanking it has become even less viable than before especially with the talos or even a cheap thorax

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2537 - 2013-03-07 17:22:29 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


It still can't tank to save its life even with the AAR and shield tanking it has become even less viable than before especially with the talos or even a cheap thorax


Please explain to me how a ship that has received an increase in dps, speed, and another low slot less viable than before?
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2538 - 2013-03-07 17:41:33 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


It still can't tank to save its life even with the AAR and shield tanking it has become even less viable than before especially with the talos or even a cheap thorax


Please explain to me how a ship that has received an increase in dps, speed, and another low slot less viable than before?



Alright how's this?: it got a massive shield HP nerf which makes it pretty poor for shield tanking now and thats before you take into account the talos and the much quicker and cheaper thorax, granted the thorax is worse in some respects.

Then armour tanking it is a waste of time you can get a myrmidon to do the same job but better.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2539 - 2013-03-08 20:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
i've just noticed that a prophecy has a chronic inability to fit Heavy Pulse Lasers but can fit HAM launchers easily whilst having better range and dps.........

Any ideas CCP?

Anybody else think HAMS are massively OP now? same range as torps wtf?
lower dps but better tracking effectively especially up close and twice the range of conflag using rage ...... so what is the selling point/advantage of lasers anymore?

We need that missile re-balance just about now don't you think CCP?
HAMS should be shorter range than lasers ignoring the pointless falloff on lasers.
TD's TE's TC's ...... rockets also have too low a sig radius which means they can hit drones for full damage .. strange anyone?
Javelin rockets have a explosion radius of 15!!!!! what is that small? and 15km range is better than most medium guns do
Also rage rockets have much better range than lasers too 8.4km is better range than the brutix can do ffs.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2540 - 2013-03-08 21:27:30 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


Anybody else think HAMS are massively OP now?


Yes, they most certainly are.