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What "cheap rifter" actually means?
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Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#1 - 2011-10-27 13:31:19 UTC
Hi all,

I took a look at killmails that I am part as a victim and I started to wonder about this whole "cheap rifter" thing. According to those killmails estimated value of my rifters ranges from 8 up to 18 mils. Of course I fit best modules I can currently use which means I'm going for t2 stuff if my skills allow me to.

I have ISKs to burn and I am dedicated to learn pvp in a process so I do not complain about lost ships or modules so please don't react with "you lost some spare change, boo hoo". I would really like to know what more experienced people have to say on a subject of flying a cheap rifter that would allow for at least a chance of winning some engagements? Especially that I found some old threads from around 2008 where cheap meant 1 mil rifter or so and I don't think such prices are still possible to maintain.

As always thanks for help.

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DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-10-27 13:49:23 UTC
imo a 18mil rifter is not a cheap rifter.

A cheap rifter for me costs around 4 mil. This cheap rifter is great in a tackle role, but not for solo pvp. You get the tackle and when your buddies get in range they take over.

After that you can GTFO or die horribly. Twisted

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#3 - 2011-10-27 14:19:23 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
imo a 18mil rifter is not a cheap rifter.

A cheap rifter for me costs around 4 mil. This cheap rifter is great in a tackle role, but not for solo pvp. You get the tackle and when your buddies get in range they take over.

After that you can GTFO or die horribly. Twisted


That is what I suspected but as I am not very into flying with others and limiting/committing myself as a tackler I will continue to fly best equipped rifters I can afford.

But thank you for clarification.

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L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#4 - 2011-10-27 14:32:23 UTC
Don't forget that a T2 fitted rifter costs between 4-8 mil with ammo and rigs and has quite a large engagment envelope.

That is less than the more common interceptor hulls without fittings / rigs etc.

the "cheap" rifter is "cheap" compared to the alternatives.

4-8 mil is obtained through one Lvl 3 or 4 mission, 1 radar site in high sec, a couple good market orders etc. It's pretty easy to obtain by the time you have the skills for a full T2 fit rifter.

If your looking for bang-for-buck ideas, peruse the pirate guides that emphasize the 'saturday night special' approach to combat.
One example ( whose source I forget ) was to compare the actual real game difference between the T2 and lower meta webs. Often you don't need the T2 web to achieve the speed advantage against some foes.
Jaxemont
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-10-27 15:07:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaxemont
Try a buffer fit like this. Cost is 6.2m on sell orders in Rens (you could probably save over 1m if you shop around or do buy orders). Not super cheap, but if you cut too many corners, the only way you’d win is if your opponent is incompetent or has a worse fit than you.

This is a great newbie fit for soloing. Active armor repping is only good if you have good energy/armor skills. Also, since everyone else is flying the cookie cutter repping fit, your neut will probably eat them alive. I suggest sticking to fighting T1 ships for now.

[Rifter, 400mm plate]
Damage Control II
400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction

Small Projectile Ambit Extension I
Small Projectile Ambit Extension I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I


You can switch projectile rigs to armor rigs if you want, but that will increase the cost by about 1.8m and make you much slower/easier to escape from.

(Side note: Don’t carry too much ammo, you’d be surprised how much that can drive up the cost of a rifter.)

Price breakdown(sell orders, rounding up):
Hull: 250k
Guns: 1.8m
Plate: 700k
DC: 800k
MAPC: 300k
AB: 10k
Web: 600k
Scram: 40k
Rigs: 450k
Ammo: 1m (Republic Fleet EMP/Phased Plasma/Fusion/Barrage x500 each)

Edit: I think I found your problem. You're flying shield rifters, and using the meta 4 medium shield extender (6m ISK!). Not worth the cost in my opinion. Although it seems like shield rifters are faster, your lack of a web makes you slower than other frigs with a web, even slow armor rifters. Shield rifters are mostly good against opponents who don't have webs.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#6 - 2011-10-27 16:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
EDIT:

After submitting this post I noticed your edit where you basically answered this question but I leave it for historical purposes :)


ORIGINAL POST:

Jaxemont, thanks for this fit. Even though I can't use it because I am lacking skills I will keep it in mind in the future.

But this is a fit I can use and I'd like to run it by you for feedback:

Rigs:
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I
type="Small Core Defence Field Extender I

Lows:
Fourier Transform I Tracking Program
Overdrive Injector System II
Counterbalanced Weapon Mounts I

Meds:
Warp Scrambler II
Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Highs:
150mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I, RF EMP S
150mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I, RF EMP S
150mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I, RF EMP S

According to EveHQ it has 4005 EHP, 242/108 Volley/DPS, 1184 km/s and is cap stable at 78%. I know that everybody says PVP should be armor + rep fitted but somehow I like my ship as fast as possible. Am I wrong about taking such approach?

Above fit is for my actual skills not some theoretical all level 5 fantasy. So, does it have some potential or am I just wasting money and time and should fly 400mm armored brick?

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Jaxemont
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-10-27 17:24:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaxemont
I don't want to tell you what to fly, but you don't need all lvl 5 skills to fly the 400mm plate setup. (I still only have Minmatar Frig 4, and mediocre gunnery skills). Though I think that fit might require Engineering 5 and projectile weapon rigs 3... You might be able to skip the weapon rigs and go for armor rigs (price doesn't seem to bother you) and might be able to fit it with Engineering 4... maybe. (Engineering 5 is a good skill to have nonetheless).

I would suggest getting T2 guns as soon as possible. Also, flying without a damage control is dangerous, and I would only suggest doing that when you have great gunnery skills, where you will kill your opponent before they reach your hull. Given your skill level, a damage control is a good thing to have. I'm no expert in Shield Rifters, but you're basically gambling and hoping that they load fusion or barrage instead of phased plasma. If they do, you might win(if they don't run away in time.)

Are you trying to kite? Is that why you have a T2 scrambler for extra range? If the enemy has a web, your range dictation usually goes down. How exactly do you fight? Orbit 500? Keep at Range? Are your opponents in hull or armor when you pop?

If you're dead set on flying shield rifters, I would switch the Overdrive injector for a damage control. Personally I think shield rifters are better as "Aces up your sleeve", where your opponent thinks you'll have an armor tanked ship and load fusion. If you fly them too much people will expect and counter them.

Edit: Sorry… another edit. Another advantage of the shield rifter is that it usually has an energy neutralizer in the high slot. This will help against active armor tanking ships. Maybe drop the Tracking Enhancer for a Micro Auxilliary Power Core for the Neut. It may also help you when the fight is going badly, and you might be able to cap out their scram and escape. Just a thought.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#8 - 2011-10-28 07:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
First let me say it clear: I am really thankful for your advice, even if I won't follow right now (either because my skills lack or just out of my newbie stubbornness) I will keep them in mind for future reference.

Regarding my current skills you can check them out with an eveboard link in my signature but here's a quick summary:
- I have Engineering lvl 5 and most of other skills from engineering at lvl 4 and 3. Very early on I understood that cap and powergrid are pretty much crucial for flexible fittings and minnie ships tend to be rather power sensitive.
- I have my Navigation at lvl 5 and most of supporting skills at lvl 3 - just trying to boost propulsion and agility related things as much as I can while not being able to use t2 modules yet.
- most of gunnery and shields related skills at lvl 3 with Gunnery itself at lvl 4, now training Small Projectile Turret to lvl 5 to be able to use t2 guns

For some reason 400mm plate takes huge chunk of my CPU/PG, have to investigate what skills could help with that.

My previous remark about fantasy lvl 5 fits was related not to your advice about fitting but to the fact that on battleclinic very often people put fits created in EFT at convenient "all level 5" character settings which I think is a little "I wish" kind and not usable before you really have all related skills at lvl 5.

My fights are pretty quick so I don't have a time to play out my tactics. Basically I try to get close to my opponent, enter tight orbit and let guns do some damage. In reality I always screw something up or react one second too late and usually my shields start bleeding when I finally click everything I should.

That is main reason I go out into lowsec and engage targets I usually don't stand a chance against. I want to get used to adrenaline rush and make some actions a habit. Target, scram, web, orbit/keep at range and shoot - and then let's enjoy shaking hands and "omg" moments. For now I tend to have "omg" moment somewhere between scram and web phase which I think is no good :)

Yesterday I had a pretty cool fight in Havrice with some nice Tusker. Fight was cool because I lasted a lot longer than in my previous engagements. I even got some scratches on his shield :)

And once again I was treated with nice talk after fight when this nice fella gave me some advice, he explained that his fit was not exactly for fast frigs so I had some chance if I only got under his guns and... he gave me a fully fitted arty rifter and two of my guns :) I can't use arty guns but I definitely can use a rifter and it's modules. And I don't even know what type of ship he was flying but it was something definitely bigger that I should try to attack.

Ok, end of this wall of text. Once again thank you for your input and hope I did not bore you to death with my long newbie posts :)

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Handsome Hussein
#9 - 2011-10-28 08:01:06 UTC
Once you are able to fit T2 items, the costs go down significantly; meta 4 items can be 10x the cost of the T2 item.

Here's a shield fit I've been playing around with; I find it quite fun. Runs about 6 mil all told. If you can't fit it, remove the rocket launcher and it'll still be able to do respectable damage.

[Rifter, Shield/Speed TE]
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II
Rocket Launcher II

Medium Shield Extender II
1MN Afterburner II
Warp Scrambler II

Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Overdrive Injector System II

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I

My advice to you is to get your T2 guns and then work towards a T2 tank. You may have to train fitting skills as you go along to get everything into your boat. Once you have tank and gank, work on finishing up the basics (Navigation!) and getting other T2 items (prop jamming, AB and MWD, things like that). Your options will only increase over time.

Looks like you're having a hell of fun time out there. Good luck!

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#10 - 2011-10-28 08:28:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
Wherever I can I use t2 modules. Money are not an issue so if module gives more than other versions I use it to maximize my chances. In the morning of November 2 my Small Projectile Turret lvl 5 will end so in the evening I should be ready with AWU 2 and be able to fit t2 guns at last. Next in line I plan either go with Spaceship Command lvl 5 (to open up for Jag and Wolf) or few support skills for navigation and engineering. 1 or 2 days for each to get to lvl 4, after a week I should be in a lot better shape skills wise.

And yes, I am having fun because I choose to seek for it instead of crying how scary space is outside worm fuzzy hisec.

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Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#11 - 2011-10-28 10:25:06 UTC
I've found this is a very cost effective setup:

[Rifter, PvP]
Damage Control II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Armor Repairer II

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
E5 Prototype Energy Vampire

Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Small Projectile Ambit Extension I
Small Projectile Ambit Extension I

In addition I don't carry more than 1-2 reloads of a given ammo and I only carry barrage + Phased plasma. Not carrying thousands of rounds of faction/T2 ammo saves alot of isk. Most of the Isk saved is on the webber/scram as the high meta ones are very expensive.

Also - Evasive maneuvering + navigation 5 are friggin awesome - get them as soon as your T2 tank and guns are done.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#12 - 2011-10-28 13:31:11 UTC
This is a cheap and very fun Rifter

Replace bits with T2/named as you feel fit.

More than half the loss was the loot in my cargohold.

How to win EVE
Toshiro GreyHawk
#13 - 2011-10-28 15:01:54 UTC


Not a big PVP guy here ... but I'll comment a little and if I'm full of **** I'm sure someone will let me know ...



1) If you're clicking to turn stuff on - you're probably doing it wrong. Each Module Slot has a function key assignment - which you can change - allowing you to rapidly hit the keys you want rather than moving a mouse. Try that and see if it's faster. You can see what those assignments are and change them if you like in your ESC Menu. Additionally, you can group all your weapons, which I don't do but that may help too.



2) If they have a web - and you don't - it's going to make you much easier to hit than they are. This is one of the reasons you see so many PVP fit ships that armor tank. Armor tanking using Low Slots, while Shield tanking uses Mid's - where those Webs and Scramblers go.



3) As to the topic ... when you hear "cheap" anything ... you can have trouble determining what that means ...

In absolute terms - it's often referring to throw away T1 Rifters used as tackles. This is the role and cost level that most new people can easily afford and allows them to participate in group PVP and also allows them to afford the lessons they will learn in Solo PVP - where they're going to lose anyway. So - a lot of the times you're hearing Cheap Rifter - this is what they're talking about - an extremely cheap ship you can practice with, getting your tactics and muscle memory down without spending a lot of money on something that's just going to get blown up anyway. As you've discovered - there's knowing what to do - and then there's being able to do it effectively - which are not even close to being the same thing. Knowledge is half the battle - Execution the other half.

In Relative terms though ... it could be anything ... depending on what the person talking considers expensive ...



4) For Cap usage - Most of your Navigation Skills will help your cap - if they don't do it directly by causing your ship to use less of it - they will do it indirectly by allowing it to do something faster ... and thus take less cap to accomplish. Reading and re-reading your skill information can help learn what does what but there's a lot to process so ... that's one of the advantages a veteran has over a new person ... they've had the time to really understand all the ramifications of learning or fitting something.



5) 400 mm of armor on a frigate ... yeah ... that's going to use a lot of PG. It's also going to slow you down - but - if both of you are webbed ... you're not going to be going all that fast to begin with.



*shrug*

GL

.
Jaxemont
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-10-28 15:23:07 UTC
A few more things after seeing your skills:

Get Minmatar Frig 4 at least. That’s an extra 5% damage and 7.5% tracking you’re missing out on.

Also, get Science 4, then Thermodynamics 3 at least. Overheating your modules is a very huge aspect of PVP. For frigates, you can just overheat them before even seeing your opponent. You or your opponent will die before your guns burn out.

I will also reiterate my advice to put a neutralizer on your shield rifter. If you want to be faster than your opponent, you’ll have to neut out their AB and Web. If they have a NOS, then they may still be able to run their scram on you, but at least you can regain your speed advantage. Your cap stability doesn’t do anything for your shield rifter.

Quote:
Very early on I understood that cap and powergrid are pretty much crucial for flexible fittings and minnie ships tend to be rather power sensitive.


If you think minamtar ships are PG sensitive, you should try flying gallente. :)


Another thing: T2 isn't always best. T2 EWAR uses a ton of CPU, so if you're short on that, downgrading to meta is usually worth it. I see you don't have Electronics 5, so that might be an issue.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#15 - 2011-10-28 17:38:52 UTC
In general anything less then 20mils (1x lvl 4 blockade's pay out) can be considered cheap. P
Ofc paying 20x in fitting then you ship is never sensible but it happens.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#16 - 2011-10-31 14:40:07 UTC
@Jaxemont

Thanks a lot for your suggestions regarding skills. Currently I aim for getting t2 guns but right after that I will go for Min Frigs lvl 4 or even 5. Next in line will be Hull Upgrades lvl 4 and probably something to boost my CPU/PG levels more.

I don't mind waiting for skills to finish because I have a lot of fun lurking around lowsec with fits I can use at least for escaping those bad flashing red pirates :)

@Everybody else

Thanks for examples of fits and other advice. As soon as RL time will allow I will testdrive some of them.

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