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Give the harbinger a 3rd bonus.

First post
Author
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#21 - 2013-03-02 23:55:01 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
sabre906 wrote:

How about we compare cap usage. Harbinger with heavy pulse IIs consumes 9.6 cap/sec on guns, Brutix with 250mm rail IIs (lol rails) consumes 9.0 cap/sec on guns. Former is 0.6 cap/sec higher, but gets Scorch. I'll give you rail performance for that 0.6 cap/sec, deal? Oh wait, but that's not enough, you want a 3rd bonus. What are you smoking and can i haz?Roll

Comparing long range guns to short range guns in cap use. The Turret you are looking for is Heavy Beam Laser.


Blasters then, 8.4, huge difference. But I suppose these guns will be off while you get into range to tickle that scorchboat.Lol

And who fit beams on their Harby instead of scorch?Roll


As i've mentioned previously who puts lasers on anything other than an amarr ship? Obviously not enough advantages to outweigh the exhorbitant cap cost.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Alara IonStorm
#22 - 2013-03-03 00:03:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
sabre906 wrote:

Blasters then, 8.4, huge difference. But I suppose these guns will be off while you get into range to tickle that scorchboat.Lol

First off getting the numbers straight a Neutron Blaster II uses

-0.8 Cap per sec / 0 Mag Stab
-0.9 Cap per sec / 1 Mag Stab
-1.0 Cap per sec / 2 Mag Stab
-1.1 Cap per sec / 3 Mag Stab

While a Heavy Pulse Laser II with a 50% Cap Bonus uses

-1.3 Cap per sec / 0 Heat Sink
-1.5 Cap per sec / 1 Heat Sink
-1.6 Cap per sec / 2 Heat Sink
-1.7 Cap per sec / 3 Heat Sink

So yeah huge difference, +50% in fact with a - 50% Cap reduction.

sabre906 wrote:

And who fit beams on their Harby instead of scorch?Roll

Same person who would put rails on a Brutix.

I've argued that nerfing Heavies was a mistaken solution instead fixing Beams and Rails. While Heavies are not in terrible shape LR Medium Turrets need some work.
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#23 - 2013-03-03 00:14:30 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
A capacitor use bonus should not count as a "bonus" when minmatar ships get that for free. I am not sure why CCP has to make it so that a ship can only have two bonuses, it seems rather silly. Maybe something simple like a tracking bonus or maybe even a really weird bonus like to a type of ewar?

The drake gets a bonus to resistances and a dps bonus, but do its guns use less cap than a harbinger? Yea, good bonus. It's not like lasers give a really big advantage to counter using all that cap.


The lack of a second bonus is balanced by the natural performance of lasers.
Honestly the Harbinger was fine before the patch and its equal if not a little better now.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-03-03 00:38:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
Akara Ito wrote:


The lack of a second bonus is balanced by the natural performance of lasers.
Honestly the Harbinger was fine before the patch and its equal if not a little better now.


This chart argues otherwise

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/64183/1/BCUse.jpg

The harbinger was the least used tier 2 battlecruiser. The myrmidon was more useful, the harbinger did nothing that other ships didn't do better and that is still the case. It is meh, it doesn't suck, its just really really meh.

Is it fast? No. is it extra tanky? No. is it a wtfdps machine? No. Does it have lots of utility? No. Does it have above average range? Sure.
Have you ever seen that exploited with success? probably not that often.

The harbinger is the definition of mediocre. Throw a medium neut on it and it won't be able to fight back , get in an in your face brawl and it will just plain be out brawled, if your being kited just warp away or move up to it because its Sloooooooow.

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Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#25 - 2013-03-03 00:53:32 UTC
Who cares about charts? There are so many factors that play into this chart, the Quality of the ships themselves isn't actually the most important.
Perhaps the harbinger isnt used as much because a lot of people have Drake skills from pve and minmatar are generally prefered for (solo) pvp? No idea but certainly possible.

The point is: i fly Harbinger(s) and I have used it in fleets meant for Hurricanes. The cap use of lasers isn't as much of a problem as you say it is.

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-03-03 00:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
Akara Ito wrote:
Who cares about charts? There are so many factors that play into this chart, the Quality of the ships themselves isn't actually the most important.
Perhaps the harbinger isnt used as much because a lot of people have Drake skills from pve and minmatar are generally prefered for (solo) pvp? No idea but certainly possible.

The point is: i fly Harbinger(s) and I have used it in fleets meant for Hurricanes. The cap use of lasers isn't as much of a problem as you say it is.



You ignored every other reason I listed for why the harbinger is underused. The harbinger is straight up inferior to the hurricane. The harby is worse as a fleet ship and the myrm is a better solo ship than it.

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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#27 - 2013-03-03 01:06:43 UTC
The only advantage a Harbinger has? It looks BAD ASS! Shame about the fact that it is otherwise really bad.
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#28 - 2013-03-03 07:18:31 UTC
Asking for a 3rd bonus, which would throw balance out the window, is not a good way to go.

All T1 ships have 2 bonuses which should be balanced against the ship they are on as well as other ships in their class and role. That system works.

A more logical idea would have been to ask for a cap recharge bonus instead, or something similar. But that would be of no help to fits that rely on cap boosters to keep running, while a cap need reduction does help in this field.

Lasers, like every other weapon system, have their own set of benefits and weaknesses.

Lasers have massive optimal, allowing for much more 'applied dps' when. compared to say projectiles which are almost always working in damage mitigating falloff.
It also does not require reloading, unless your using faction or T2 ammo.
I mean come on, a Zealot with Scorch M will easily have a 30km+ optimal range. Can any other weapon say the same?

All in all: Bonuses are for flavour, they should not make or break a ship.
Toxic Raioin
Un4seen Development
Sev3rance
#29 - 2013-03-03 07:42:23 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Asking for a 3rd bonus, which would throw balance out the window, is not a good way to go.

All T1 ships have 2 bonuses which should be balanced against the ship they are on as well as other ships in their class and role. That system works.

A more logical idea would have been to ask for a cap recharge bonus instead, or something similar. But that would be of no help to fits that rely on cap boosters to keep running, while a cap need reduction does help in this field.

Lasers, like every other weapon system, have their own set of benefits and weaknesses.

Lasers have massive optimal, allowing for much more 'applied dps' when. compared to say projectiles which are almost always working in damage mitigating falloff.
It also does not require reloading, unless your using faction or T2 ammo.
I mean come on, a Zealot with Scorch M will easily have a 30km+ optimal range. Can any other weapon say the same?

All in all: Bonuses are for flavour, they should not make or break a ship.


Scorch is Amarrs saving grace. If conflag wasnt utter **** they could probably nerf scorch.
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#30 - 2013-03-03 08:48:58 UTC
Toxic Raioin wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
...All in all: Bonuses are for flavour, they should not make or break a ship.

Scorch is Amarrs saving grace. If conflag wasnt utter **** they could probably nerf scorch.

I hope that once all the ships are rebalanced, they will be able to rebalance weapons and other modules.
Sigras
Conglomo
#31 - 2013-03-03 08:49:45 UTC
Lasers have massive optimal, and damage projection which is what justifies the lack of a bonus.

What you mean to complain about is the Harbinger as a ship not lasers compared with blasters, the harbinger's problem is with its speed (or lack thereof) not its weapon system

When you compare medium lasers with medium hybrids on most other ships, you'll actually find that they are fairly well balanced with the new ship changes, and that lasers have a definite edge in the ships that havent been re-balanced yet. (i mean would you really rather have a deimos than a zealot, or an astarte over an absolution?)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#32 - 2013-03-03 10:38:27 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

First off getting the numbers straight a Neutron Blaster II uses

-0.8 Cap per sec / 0 Mag Stab
-0.9 Cap per sec / 1 Mag Stab
-1.0 Cap per sec / 2 Mag Stab
-1.1 Cap per sec / 3 Mag Stab

While a Heavy Pulse Laser II uses

-2.6 Cap per sec / 0 Heat Sink
-3.0 Cap per sec / 1 Heat Sink
-3.2 Cap per sec / 2 Heat Sink
-3.4 Cap per sec / 3 Heat Sink


I have fixed your numbers to reflect the actual weapons themselves, not the use on a ship with a 50% capacitor bonus to them.
This is the problem the Op is talking about.
Lasers use more than tripple the Cap of Blasters. This is because originally they were WTFOMGBBQ DPS. This Dps has since been significantly downpowered, yet the capacitor useage has been left the same.
The 50% cap use bonus is not a 'bonus'. It is a crutch left in place to deal with legacy stats on lasers which no longer serve a purpose. Without the 50% cap use, Lasers are virtually unusable on most Amarr ships, so people fit projectiles, or on the Prophecy they fit missiles. I haven't seen a single serious new prophecy fit suggesting using Lasers, it's all projectiles or missiles. Because its simply not sustainable as a laser boat without a cap use bonus. And that is bad.
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#33 - 2013-03-03 10:40:56 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Lasers have massive optimal, and damage projection which is what justifies the lack of a bonus.

To put this another way, how about dropping 33% from all lasers optimal range as well as 50% of the cap they use. Then swap all cap use bonuses on all the amarr ships for an optimal bonus.

You then end up in the same place with the ship overall, but would it make anyone feel better?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#34 - 2013-03-03 12:00:05 UTC
I think an important part of what everyone seems to be forgetting is that lasers..

...have instant ammo switching and have literally unlimited ammo unless you're using T2/faction crystals which still take damage pretty slowly.

I wish my projectile weapons and my missile bays (I fly Minmatar, so naturally I have both) could change ammo half as fast as lasers can change crystals.

No, really. You can fire an awful lot of times with those faction/T2 crystals before they break. Crystals take up nearly no space in the cargo, compared to the amount of ammo you'd need to make the same number of shots with any other gun. Lasers have a lot of benefits, but they're balanced by drawbacks and you're either failing or refusing to see the benefits because all you're interested in are the drawbacks.

Regarding the "make lasers take less cap and remove the cap bonus", I'm not going to touch that specifically but I do want to point out that some Amarr ships don't get a cap bonus to lasers, instead getting RoF and damage bonuses, or range and damage, or tracking and damage. The argument could possibly be made that cap-bonused ships are intended to more easily allow for active armor tanking as opposed to the ships without the cap bonus being intended mainly for passive armor tanking.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-03-03 19:41:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Asking for a 3rd bonus, which would throw balance out the window, is not a good way to go.



Whats the point of a bonus if it doesn't actually make it better than anything but rather makes it not quite as ****?

Nothing about it is unbalanced when its second bonus doesn't even give it an advantage over other ships. Saying it shouldn't have a 3rd bonus is stupid and arbitrary.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-03-03 19:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I think an important part of what everyone seems to be forgetting is that lasers..

...have instant ammo switching and have literally unlimited ammo unless you're using T2/faction crystals which still take damage pretty slowly.

I wish my projectile weapons and my missile bays (I fly Minmatar, so naturally I have both) could change ammo half as fast as lasers can change crystals.

No, really. You can fire an awful lot of times with those faction/T2 crystals before they break. Crystals take up nearly no space in the cargo, compared to the amount of ammo you'd need to make the same number of shots with any other gun. Lasers have a lot of benefits, but they're balanced by drawbacks and you're either failing or refusing to see the benefits because all you're interested in are the drawbacks.

Regarding the "make lasers take less cap and remove the cap bonus", I'm not going to touch that specifically but I do want to point out that some Amarr ships don't get a cap bonus to lasers, instead getting RoF and damage bonuses, or range and damage, or tracking and damage. The argument could possibly be made that cap-bonused ships are intended to more easily allow for active armor tanking as opposed to the ships without the cap bonus being intended mainly for passive armor tanking.


That sure is helpful when I am watching a movie bashing a pos or running level 4's.

I am not for making lasers use less cap naturally, I just think the harbinger needs another ace up its sleeve other than it can do 450dps past 20km.

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Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#37 - 2013-03-03 19:54:41 UTC
As long as my myrm can get a blaster bonus, my brutix a tracking bonus, and my drake can get an omni missile damage increase and a rate of fire boost

Or the harbinger could just get a useful bonus to replace it's current one.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-03-03 19:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
Drake Doe wrote:
As long as my myrm can get a blaster bonus, my brutix a tracking bonus, and my drake can get an omni missile damage increase and a rate of fire boost

Or the harbinger could just get a useful bonus to replace it's current one.


None of those ships need a different bonus, the harbinger is at a great disadvantage being such a cap whore and needs that cap bonus.

Having two bonuses shouldn't be an arbitrary rule because not all bonuses are created equal.

IE Active rep bonus vs resist bonus

ROF bonus vs true damage bonus

Tracking bonus vs range

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Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#39 - 2013-03-03 20:03:51 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
As long as my myrm can get a blaster bonus, my brutix a tracking bonus, and my drake can get an omni missile damage increase and a rate of fire boost

Or the harbinger could just get a useful bonus to replace it's current one.


None of those ships need a different bonus, the harbinger is at a great disadvantage being such a cap ***** and needs that cap bonus.

Having two bonuses shouldn't be an arbitrary rule because not all bonuses are created equal.

IE Active rep bonus vs resist bonus

ROF bonus vs true damage bonus

Tracking bonus vs range

Which means a different bonus (I've never flown amarr so I don't know what bonus should go in it's place) would fix that

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-03-03 20:09:58 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:

Which means a different bonus (I've never flown amarr so I don't know what bonus should go in it's place) would fix that


So your saying that the harbinger's guns should use more cap than a microwarp drive because 3 bonuses would make it look different from the other ships?

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