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Miner Ganking & New Player Ganking

Author
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#21 - 2013-02-28 10:50:04 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
The Reaper J wrote:
I have no idea. For all we know, the New Order Logistics, could be some of the GM's on their personal accounts,

Actually... there are rules that GMs and DEVs must abide by on their "normal" accounts. Suicide ganking and general "griefplay" being two of them. So that's out.

The Reaper J wrote:
For all we know, the New Order Logistics, could be... (snip)... a bunch of fanatical, maniacal, crazy people that are bored, and have no brains worth 10 cents.

They are playing a "meta-game" of sorts. One that game mechanics rules cannot touch because it resides outside of the game itself.

The long and short of it is this; they are role playing a bunch of "fanatical, maniacal, crazy people" that seek to ransom and infuriate other players using the game mechanics to their own advantage. If you change the mechanics or the rules, they will simply adapt and find something new to gain ISK and/or get the rocks off. Then you have to create new mechanics and rules for that.
And it will NEVER. END.

The only thing CCP can do is create clear, justified, and VERY occasional exceptions to the mechanics and rules and enforce them within that exception only.

The Reaper J wrote:
All i am saying is, that eventually, there will be far more chaos in the game, and then there will be absolutely not point to a so called "hi sec".

If you don't like what others are doing in high-sec... then find a way to stop it. The mechanics and rules that govern you and your gameplay also govern those who threaten you. Their tools can be used by you. They are not special in any way... but neither are you.

And the "point" of high-sec is to institute and enforce a steep penalty for aggression... be it through war dec fees or losing your ship, sec status, and ISK suicide ganking. This gives a high degree of protection for those who make it unprofitable to gank them. High-sec does its job very nicely.

The Reaper J wrote:
I know of a few people already wanting to go camp gates, and wait for noobs to pop out, so they can gank them.

And why would they do that? Newbies are usually in NPC corps... meaning the only way to kill them is to suicide gank... which is unprofitable as newbies generally have nothing of value to gank for.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#22 - 2013-02-28 11:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
The Reaper J wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
That rule was in place for quite a while. Gate camping new players is neither profitable nor fun so why waste own game time on such activity? Also that might lead to new players losing interest in game so you'll end up with less players to play with in a long run.
I understand that those "few people" cannot compete with anything that can fight back and thats why they want to fuel their superiority complex by killing inexperienced and helpless new players. Correct me if i'm wrong.


Whats wrong with them doing it? They can gate camp if they want and kill noobs if they want to. It got nothing to do with being able to fight. Miners are unarmed miners, mining in a belt with not real actual defensive capabilities. Noobs are the same, so why not gate cam and kill noobs. If its fun for them, so what.

A true newbie who is a day old and all alone understands nothing about the game. Hell... some of them can barely figure out where the warp button is (take a peek in New Citizens Q&A sometime). They also contribute very little to the overall game or market (nothing of any consequence anyways). That's why they get "special protection" within their starting systems.


Someone in a barge had to make a conscious effort (which implies some research and decision making) and make time in their skill que to get into such a ship. They also can contribute massively to the market (especially in numbers) and affect ship, mod, and ammo prices as far away as null-sec. They also have choices available to them (tanking barge, cargo barge, or mining yield barge). That's why they don't get "special protection."
Mag's
Azn Empire
#23 - 2013-02-28 12:36:55 UTC
While I agree new players can and should be shot from time to time, I also agree that CCP should place some limits upon the shooting of them in starter systems.

But let's be honest here, why would anyone think it's a good idea to even go to starter systems and gank new players? What exactly does this achieve? Then to suggest camping the gate on the other side to get around the ban, just strikes me as asking for trouble. It also seems pointless.

As far as ganking miners is concerned, unlike new players they have better options and should have better knowledge of the game.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#24 - 2013-02-28 13:00:20 UTC
Mag's wrote:
While I agree new players can and should be shot from time to time, I also agree that CCP should place some limits upon the shooting of them in starter systems.

But let's be honest here, why would anyone think it's a good idea to even go to starter systems and gank new players? What exactly does this achieve? Then to suggest camping the gate on the other side to get around the ban, just strikes me as asking for trouble. It also seems pointless.

As far as ganking miners is concerned, unlike new players they have better options and should have better knowledge of the game.


Honestly I cannot imagine anybody seriously camping other side of newbie system gate. One thing is being on verge of ban and another what's the point? Killboard padding with newbie ships and pods is not worth the ammo used when you can basically warp into any belt, blowup mining barge worth 100 time more (or whatever is the multiplier in price), collect tears from victim and street rep from your peers.

This whole thread is about problem that doesn't really exist because while deed is possible nobody does it. Really, nobody.

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Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#25 - 2013-02-28 13:09:34 UTC
The issue is newer players that do not understand WHY they were ganked in the first place. The NPE does not cover this very well and the losses can be devastating to a new player.

To everyone that says EvE is a cold and cruel place by design is wrong.

EvE is a sandbox, empty, flat and ready for the creation of anything we want. It is sad that some players decided to make it harsh and unwelcoming to new people.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#26 - 2013-02-28 13:14:17 UTC
Michael Loney wrote:
The issue is newer players that do not understand WHY they were ganked in the first place. The NPE does not cover this very well and the losses can be devastating to a new player.

To everyone that says EvE is a cold and cruel place by design is wrong.

EvE is a sandbox, empty, flat and ready for the creation of anything we want. It is sad that some players decided to make it harsh and unwelcoming to new people.


Yeah but that is not exactly a problem of incorrect EULA or any rules CCP can enforce. As you said sandbox ready for creation of anything we want. Some choose mischief and mayhem and that is as valid choice as being fuzzy and full of candy. You cannot force people to not being bunch of Richards just as you cannot patch stupid.

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Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#27 - 2013-02-28 13:19:51 UTC
The newbbie protection extended to the whole the epic arc systems is a recent things. Was made casuse some idiots was using can flipping to cheat new players so to feed their killboards.

When something go out of control and become harmfull for the game they will always step in of course; this go for can flipping noob as well as for other kind of grieffing.

I'd rather prefer them to ban the idiots instead of changing/limiting the game options or add more rules. But is fine so too.

TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-02-28 13:51:06 UTC  |  Edited by: TheSkeptic
The Reaper J wrote:
TheSkeptic wrote:
The Reaper J wrote:
tears...


Why are you ganking noobs anyway? It does nothing but drive new players out of the game before they even get a taste for it.

On the argument it could be a veteran with a new account... If it were a vet, the income a newbie account would bring in would make the activity a pointless waste of time.


I am not popping noobs. I am saying it should be allowed, seeing that they pop miners in hi sec, and that the losses are not worth playing further.

I did make a suggestion. CCP needs to reconsider the rules about ganking. Otherwise there is going to be hi sec chaos eventually, and they may as well change hi sec to low sec, and leave the noob systems as they are.


I hardly think you'd get banned for ganking characters in hi-sec that have been involved in ganking others, no matter what the age of the character.

If they have -ve sec and have been ganking others it's clear they're not noob characters.

...

Boobiq
Imperial Express
#29 - 2013-02-28 15:14:43 UTC
how is miner ganking and newb ganking situated exactly ? :P just close the topic, makes no sense.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#30 - 2013-02-28 16:40:28 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
The Reaper J wrote:
Another point, bearly anyone in this game knows what the word honorable means. So i don't expect them to be.

"Honor" is meaningless in a game designed to be a virtual dystopia.


Actually Shah.... Honor is meaningless in a game with mechanics that FORCE you to be "honorable". The mere fact that you can choose between honorable or dishonorable makes acting "honorable" more meaningful!

I have e-Honor.... I keep my in-game word, I honor 1v1's, I don't scam, and I typically only attack people in combat vessels or combat situations (I consider nullsec one big free-fire combat zone).

Granted... this is a choice I make, and I am adamantly opposed to "removing" that choice.... Hence I support suicide ganking, scamming, and all sorts of malicious gameplay.

Niveuss Nye
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-02-28 16:54:19 UTC
The way I see it:

Messing with some one a day or three into the game who does not even understand all the controls or menu: bad. CCP has and should rightfully discourage that kind of stuff.

Once they join one of the "flavor of the day" newbie mining/PvP/indy/ do-it-all corps that pop up all the time or depart the tutorial area, fair game if someone likes that playstyle of easy targets. Not my cup of tea, but niether are a lot of things in this game.

We can debate "honorable" all day long. We can debate mechanics all day long.

But, one of the things that makes Eve the game it is is that magic that the players can be whatever they would like and all playstyles co exist. Anything else would make for a very boring game.

Let's not kill that magic of a dangerous and corrupt universe with evil amok.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#32 - 2013-02-28 16:56:16 UTC

@ OP...

Miner Ganking & Hauler Ganking does not equate to Noob Ganking...

The main difference is this: A newb doesn't have much in assets, they can't reasonably be expected to understand game mechanics, and ganking them is in poor taste. Those are the future members of EvE, and it's completely reasonable to ensure they hit puberty before subjecting them to assault!

In contrast, most mining vessels that are ganked are found in more dangerous space (0.5-0.7), take some time to train into, and represent a matured player, ripe to experience all EvE has to offer. Furthermore, miner & hauler ganking is done to control systems, to ascertain profits. CCP doesn't want you to control new space, newbs have nothing of value, and so the auspices for ganking them simply don't hold.


Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#33 - 2013-02-28 17:04:20 UTC
The Reaper J wrote:
TheSkeptic wrote:
The Reaper J wrote:
tears...


Why are you ganking noobs anyway? It does nothing but drive new players out of the game before they even get a taste for it.

On the argument it could be a veteran with a new account... If it were a vet, the income a newbie account would bring in would make the activity a pointless waste of time.


I am not popping noobs. I am saying it should be allowed, seeing that they pop miners in hi sec, and that the losses are not worth playing further.

I did make a suggestion. CCP needs to reconsider the rules about ganking. Otherwise there is going to be hi sec chaos eventually, and they may as well change hi sec to low sec, and leave the noob systems as they are.


New players get additional protection because they dont have as much options to defend themselves against ganks.
After a while people are expected to deal with these kind of things and have the knowledge to protect their interests.

Also, honestly, this is a good rule and ganking newbies is ********.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#34 - 2013-02-28 17:31:56 UTC
The Reaper J wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So what is your feature or idea? This is not GD for ranting.
So I could expect this to be locked soon for ranting.


I am not ranting, i have stated in the statement they should make changes to the rules. Besides, i was also expecting the type of comment i got from Kahega Amielden. When anyone would say something another player does not like, then they would just say, leave. Its easy to say Eve, has been growing consistantly, seeing that most of the accounts of new accounts of current veteran players. Oh, and using the excuse about using cans to attrack them, is a lame excuse. Friends of veteran players can learn these things before they even join.

I was stating that CCP should consider looking into their rules about ganking miners and noobs. They say its game mechanics, to gank miners, then it should be game mechanics to gank noob accounts, even if its new accounts of veteran players or not. That's what i am saying. I am not ranting. Its called being equal to everyone in the game.


I don't tell everyone who suggests something to leave. I'm telling you that you should leave because you fundamentally don't like the type of game that EVE is. Harming other players (such as, ganking miners) is a core component of the game. EVE isn't fun because any ingame content is particularly fun or exciting, but because competing against other players who are trying to succeed over your corpse is.


The only newbies that are protected are the ones in the starter system. The rule is intended to protect people who have not done the tutorials yet. After that (which is to say, at the point that you're moving between systems) you're expected to be able to keep yourself alive.
Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
#35 - 2013-02-28 17:41:36 UTC
So, the statement that you stated in your statement is that you "want to gank 'new' accounts" ??

What exactly IS your feature and/or idea?

Thank you.
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