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Suggestion for CCP; Adjust your exploit policy regarding corp-joining for targets
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Thaeric
Doomheim
#1 - 2011-10-26 19:29:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaeric
First, please read the information/quotes in section 1, so everyone understands where I'm coming from.

(Section 1 - Please read first)

Definition of an exploit, according to CCP:
"An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever."
found here


"Insta- Joining and Leaving corporations to surprise war targets is an exploit! - Reported: 2008.08.26 15:38:53

Announcement on exploit: Accepting applicants located in space, to surprise war targets in their vicinity is considered an exploit

The practice of insta-joining/leaving warring corporations for the purpose of surprising war targets, or getting them in trouble with CONCORD, is considered an exploit from here on. Reports of this will be investigated on a case by case basis and warnings will be issued at the discretion of the GM. Repeated incidents may result in bans on accounts involved. "
- found here

"Posted - 2008.08.26 16:49:00 - [14]
Hi, just a little update on the exploit:

The practice of insta-joining/leaving warring corporations for the purpose of surprising war targets, or getting them in trouble with CONCORD, is considered an exploit from here on. Reports of this will be investigated on a case by case basis and warnings will be issued at the discretion of the GM. Repeated incidents may result in bans on accounts involved.


Basically, using the current corp mechanics to sneak up on unsuspecting targets or to get targets in trouble with CONCORD is not allowed." - GM Grimmi found here








(Section 2 - Discussion of problem)

Clearly, CCP has stated and indicated that using the corp system to insta-join to surprise someone with an attack is an exploit of the system. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for them saying this, most notably because it provides an unfair advantage that can not be defended against or prevented.

The problem is that apparently the GMs and BH's I have spoken with today don't feel that this also extends to using the corp 'trick' for non-war targets. That means that anyone, at any time is able to, and allowed, to join any ones corp, or invite someone to join your corp and approve their application and then subsequently attack, destroy, extort or otherwise surprise them with a method that can not be defended against in most cases, can not be prevented, and circumvents Police and Concord mechanics.

Don't get me wrong, i understand and completely accept that EvE is a tough place, and everyones out to scam you any way they can. But this is ludicrous. Think about what this implies. Any player that ever joins a corp outside of a starter corp is therefor free-game to anyone and everyone else in that corp.
Before you go and say, well just fight back, or leave the corp. That's not always possible! First, there is a mechanic that forces you to take 24 hours to leave a corp once joining, that means if you suddenly realize you've been trapped by your new corp-mates you can not leave due to their betrayal and get help from the authorities. Next, while combat pilots typically can at least put up a fight, what of industrials? miners? haulers? Any of those who are going to meet up with a corp mate can be attacked and have little to no chance of fending off the attack or getting away if it was set up to be a trap.

So what's the solution? never join a player corp at all because someone might surprise you from within your own corp? I don't think that's a very good solution. First, clearly the surprise element is a problem CCP is trying to fight, evident by the quotes above as well as the fact that war-decs are not instant.

So below is an example, and yes I speak from experience. Yes I realize that I made some mistakes and that they come largely from inexperience and being naive. However, the initial problem that started me down the road to making those mistakes is what this discussion is about. One that I feel needs to be addressed, because apparently this is a fairly common trick, and it has the potential to ruin a lot of peoples day and chase away new players.

-continued-
Thaeric
Doomheim
#2 - 2011-10-26 19:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaeric
(Section 3 - Scenario/example of problem)

I was approached by a corp that had been around for a while (4-5 months), was a mining/mission running corp. Quick background checks on the individual and the corp indicated that there shouldn't be any issues. After more than a 45 minute discussion with the recruiter, asking questions back and forth I decided to apply if they would accept me and see what they were all about. I put in an application, after which I was invited to come join them in a mining operation that was only a few jumps away. I was also told that the ceo was afk, but he would be back and accept the app shortly.
So I'm traveling off to meet up with my new miner corpmates, and as I jump through one of the gates, I am immediately accepted and given roles in the corp. The second I hit corp status I see that there is a BC and a dramiel from my corp in overhead, and I am scrammed hit with enough volleys that I'm down to about 1/4 armor.

I won't bore you with the details of how I tried to negotiate my way out and ended up getting taken for a hulk and 150m isk because ultimately it's not important, and I realize that in that situation I should have just self destructed and went to sit in a station for the next 24 hours.

The problem is that they did exactly what that exploit definition as well as the statements about using corps to instantaneously gain a surprise attack on someone. Yet thus far, I have been told by a BH (because I reported it as a bug/exploit in game mechanics) that...

"I have spoken to a member of CCP and he has informed me that this is by game design, and is not considered an exploit..."
- BH Eracho

"Unfortunately this is a game mechanic and is not broken, if you would like to suggest it needs changing then feel free to post on the features and ideas discussion thread on the official EvE Online forums at the following address: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=270"
- BH Eracho

"The exploit you are discussing apply´s to the act of setting up a suprise camp on a wartarget where you accept members into the corporation just before the enemy arrives to give false impressions of your capability, this is not what has happened to you and therefore is not considered an exploit. "
- BH Eracho


...therefor I am led to believe that it is alright for pirates, and corporations to target individuals in this way and use something that is considered an exploit in other situations where it's target is someone you are at war with? What's the difference?
Personally I think if anything it should be the other way around, individuals who are not involved in wars should be more protected from stuff like this than those who are engaged in wars.



I should also note that I have a petition that is apparently being reviewed (for more than 24 hours now), but I have not heard back from the GM's as to whether or not that is in fact an exploit, or whether I'll be reimbursed for any of my losses.

Discuss, please.


Personally, I feel the corp system should be adjusted to not allow attacks on corp members without some sort of agreement or toggle beyond just joining the corp; or there should be a required amount of time that someone must be in the corp before they can either be attacked or attack freely without concord getting involved. This would protect both players joining, as well as corps from trouble makers that seek to use a, what I consider questionable, method.
Sir HappyPants
Caldari Innovations and Research
#3 - 2011-10-26 19:44:38 UTC
You were killed by your corp, not war targets.

Not an exploit.
Member of the #TweetFleet   @thisurlnotfound
Thaeric
Doomheim
#4 - 2011-10-26 19:49:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaeric
According to CCP's exploit policy I'm not sure that's accurate.

"An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever."

Care to explain your reasoning for your statement or your stance on it? Or is it just the typical mentality of 'live with it' from EvE players and you don't actually have supporting reasons to discuss?


When someone intentionally uses the corp mechanic for the purpose of circumventing the security system so that they can attack someone without repercussions in high sec, is that not defeating an intentional system and thus exploiting a game mechanic?
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-10-26 20:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Feligast
Thaeric wrote:
Care to explain your reasoning for your statement or your stance on it? Or is it just the typical mentality of 'live with it' from EvE players and you don't actually have supporting reasons to discuss?


Dock. Drop roles. Log off for 24 hours. Drop corp.

I just prevented dying. Whee.

Also: No one forced you to join that corp. It's your own fault for not being careful.
Thaeric
Doomheim
#6 - 2011-10-26 20:17:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaeric
Absolutely, I 100% agree with you! Why didn't I think of that? *sarcasm*

So how are you going to do that when you are suddenly accepted into the corp and surrounded by enemies (which are now suddenly corpmates that you were not aware of) which scram and web you? Which is exactly the same thing as the current issue considered an exploit. You know, the one where you're not allowed to instantly jump into a corp to surprise a war target?
How is this any different to a bunch of people suddenly joining corp 'A' to surprise corp 'B' whom they are war with? It's the same exact concept, just reversed!


That's the whole point, which you apparently missed, before adding so much to the discussion. The fact that you can surprise someone with something they can not defend against or otherwise prevent is wrong. Just as it is in the case of war target surprises. The fact that people are pirates doesn't mean they should be allowed to do something that is otherwise against the rules.

If players had the option to get to a station, drop roles and leave corp because they were notified that their corp mates were toggling the option to kill them in an ambush, this wouldn't be an issue. As it is though, this system sincerely needs to be looked at.

As I said, my losses are a non-issue, I don't really care. But I see an opportunity here to help make a change to the game that will benefit others and save them, especially new players, issues they shouldn't have to worry about, and quite possibly stop people from leaving the game when they would have otherwise stayed and contributed to the community and the finances that go towards improving the game.


Also: So what you are saying is that the way to fix this is for players to not join any corp, ever? So much for the MMO tag. How is it that players are responsible to avoid a bad/broken mechanic?
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-10-26 20:29:11 UTC
Thaeric wrote:
Absolutely, I 100% agree with you! Why didn't I think of that? *sarcasm*

So how are you going to do that when you are suddenly accepted into the corp and surrounded by enemies (which are now suddenly corpmates that you were not aware of) which scram and web you? Which is exactly the same thing as the current issue considered an exploit. You know, the one where you're not allowed to instantly jump into a corp to surprise a war target?
How is this any different to a bunch of people suddenly joining corp 'A' to surprise corp 'B' whom they are war with? It's the same exact concept, just reversed!


That's the whole point, which you apparently missed, before adding so much to the discussion. The fact that you can surprise someone with something they can not defend against or otherwise prevent is wrong. Just as it is in the case of war target surprises. The fact that people are pirates doesn't mean they should be allowed to do something that is otherwise against the rules.

If players had the option to get to a station, drop roles and leave corp because they were notified that their corp mates were toggling the option to kill them in an ambush, this wouldn't be an issue. As it is though, this system sincerely needs to be looked at.

As I said, my losses are a non-issue, I don't really care. But I see an opportunity here to help make a change to the game that will benefit others and save them, especially new players, issues they shouldn't have to worry about, and quite possibly stop people from leaving the game when they would have otherwise stayed and contributed to the community and the finances that go towards improving the game.


Also: So what you are saying is that the way to fix this is for players to not join any corp, ever? So much for the MMO tag. How is it that players are responsible to avoid a bad/broken mechanic?


I will reiterate. And use small words. no. one. forced. you. to. join. OR. APPLY. to. that. corp. If you're applying to corps where you are not sure of their intentions, you deserve what you get. This is not an exploit, this is using game mechanics to scam the stupid.. apparently, you.

I'm saying the solution to this is do your homework, get to know the corps you're joining, BEFORE you click apply. Quit expecting Mommy CCP to do it for you.

As for the bolded part, it's clearly bullshit, or this wall-of-text would never have been written. But go on claiming you're not mad.
Thaeric
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-10-26 20:37:38 UTC
What you believe my mental capacity is like is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and your attacks directed at me are not productive, nor on topic. Please refrain from doing so in the future, and try to bring something to the discussion, or please do not post in the thread.

The entire point of this discussion is that I believe, based on CCP's own policies and definitions that scenarios like the one I gave for example should in fact fall under the label of exploit. It matches all of the pre-requisites and descriptions they gave in their posts and websites both directly and indirectly.

As far as researching goes, it is completely impossible to know someone so well through it that you could never be betrayed or scammed. Look at Phaser Inc, look how long that went on and how many people fell for it despite countless warnings from others that it was a ponzi. The point is, you could spend literally months or years researching and getting to know a corp and the second you joined they could turn out to be just a very patient bunch of pirates who have been duping you all along.

Again, that puts you in a situation that you are surprised by the use of the corp mechanic, and not player ingenuity or tact, because it leaves you in a situation that ultimately can not be avoided unless you abstain from joining corps your entire time playing EvE. That, by CCP's own definition of what an exploit is, is wrong.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-10-26 20:38:24 UTC
Answer me this:

How is the scenario you describe any different from two of your corp mates suddenly warping up to you in a belt and with no warning whatsoever scramming you and shooting your ship? Aside from the amount of time you have actually been in the corp, there's no difference at all which is why this isn't an exploit.

They could have accepted you and waited til you got to the belt to pop you.
Or waited until the op was over.
Or anytime between those or after.

When you click apply, you accept the risks of being in a player corp. One of those risks is that your corp mates can shoot you.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Thaeric
Doomheim
#10 - 2011-10-26 20:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaeric
Fair point De'Veldrin, and thank you for adding to the discussion.

But can't the same thing be said about using the exploit for war targets then?

You accept the risk by joining a player corp, right?


I guess that's what I am not understanding. How is it unacceptable for people to jump into a corp to go after war targets, essentially gaining an advantage through surprise by using a mechanic that's not designed to be used that way.

But yet it is acceptable for that same thing to happen to a single person? I mean they could just as easily had 5-10 miners sitting in the belt with a handful of bc's sitting off somewhere nearby, warp in to the belt and then insta-join the corp and destroy you. It's the exact same thing as far as I can tell. the only difference I see is that it likely didn't get as much attention from CCP because it's singular targets, not entire corp fleets being taken down that way.



edit - come to think of it, it's actually potentially worse.

In the case of war targets, at least it's a war, and concord nor police were supposed to be involved anyway. While in these situations, the security system are circumvented, potentially in a 1.0 security system where there should be some sense of security, otherwise what is the point of having it at all?
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-10-27 13:08:30 UTC
The real difference is how you would have reacted in those situations.

If you jumped into a system, scanned local and saw blinky wartargets, you would react significantly differently than if you didn't see any. Those people cannot legally shoot at you without CONCORD intervention, so you base your reactions and your decisions on that. The exploit comes because they are gaming the system - they wait, in some cases, until they have the target locked before they accept the application and that essentially circumvents the idea that you should have ample time to defend yourself. Or at least recognize the threat.

On the other hand, your corpmates can always legally shoot you, but in theory you should be able to trust them as much as you can trust anyone in Eve. In your case, it's not gaming the system, it's that you put your trust in the wrong people.

Believe me when I say I see where you're coming from - the end result is the same, someone got blown up without adequate warning or a chance to really defend themselves. The difference is that in the first case (the exploitive case) they had to go out of their way to arrange that situation.

In the second case, your new corpmates could have sidled up to you and shot you at any time with just as little warning - so it's not really an exploit because corpmates ARE allowed to shoot each other at any time.

At any rate, sorry about your loss mate. Better luck next time.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Taint
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-10-27 13:32:16 UTC
Where's the short version ?
Thaeric
Doomheim
#13 - 2011-10-27 16:10:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaeric
That's the whole point of what I'm trying to discuss though, is that it is essentially the same thing - those people waited, until they had the target in sight and locked to hit accept on the application. Which circumvents the idea that 1) concord/police would help otherwise, and 2) your ability to react and respond.

They did have to go out of their way to arrange the situation, and I am certain in other cases similar to mine players do the same. They set up at a gate where they know someone travels, wait until they jump in and lock/accept/and attack.
Part of me feels that while the mechanic itself might not be an exploit, its the fact that they use it in an ambush/setup way that would qualify it as such. For example, if you are out mining and minding your own business, and you see a corpmate who has come out of his way in a bc or battleship or something you have a chance, a moment to decide, if something is fishy and it's time to get out of there. Where as, if you are targeted by someone who is not a corpmate before they hit the accept button, and then instantly fired on, there is utterly no chance for reaction/response.
On top of that, if you are attacked by a corp mate, which is clearly betrayal, why are you forced by another mechanic to not be able to instantly leave that corp?

You are right that corp mates could have done it at any time, and that's actually part of my point. It doesn't make any sense why that is not considered a crime.
Is it any more legal to kill someone who is a relative just because they're family than a stranger? No. Is it acceptable in the military to shoot your own guys? No. Is it acceptable to off your business partner because you want his office or car? No
So why is it acceptable to shoot corpmates in EvE? What is the reasoning behind that?

If I had to guess I would say that it's because corporations are charged with protecting their own people, and the fact that someone is in a corporation means concord doesn't always have to watch over them anymore because the corp is supposed to be doing it. That's a good point and I understand it, but that system fails when the corp itself is out to deceive and destroy anyone it can by inviting them into the corporation just to attack them. I feel that is wrong, on many levels, and not because I was a victim of the practice, but because I see that there is an issue there with that system.
The only other reason I can think of to be allowed to attack your own corp mates is for practice purposes, which could easily be fixed by implementing a dueling system or even a toggle of accepting combat from corpmates. A simple toggle like that would allow new and old players alike to be able to join a corp and have a chance to see what they're like before getting blown up.

I just feel the entire system is ludicrous, and the fact that it is apparently so wide spread and so widely accepted by players is even more concerning. How many players do you think have quit the game and never looked back simply because they are utterly shocked that their own corporation pilots can just outright kill them with no repercussions? If I had to guess I'd bet there's probably been hundreds, maybe thousands. Not because they can't handle the toughness of the game, or how many scams are out there, but because a core component of most mmos, the ability to group with people and be safe amongst them aside from the occasional traitor/betrayal giving info, stealing etc; is actually set in such a way that they're better off never leaving an npc corp.
The entire practice, this method of using a game mechanic to circumvent security systems and kill people with no way to counter it aside form not joining a corp in the first place is the problem, and what I'm after.

The thing about it is, changing it wouldn't hurt anyone but those that just take advantage of other players with the current system. Most corps, particularly those in low or nullsec wouldn't even notice the difference because there is no security around anyway. So shooting a corp mate wouldn't cause them to get jumped by concord anyway. It would simply make a core feature of the game more accessible and friendly for those that want to be in high sec and casually play the game without having to worry that the second they join a corp they're going to get stabbed in the back.



Again, as for my losses, it's not that big of a deal, I've already made up for it since then. That's not what I am after.

My true concern is that I am wondering how many other players are completely turned off to the game because of it. As I said, I see something that I feel is a problem in how a game mechanic works and I wanted to discuss it with the community and see about how to get it fixed.
That and the fact that CCPs posted definitions of an exploit seem to make that out to be one, which apparently is an issue in itself. After doing a lot of searching, I really couldn't find very much besides community members asking for more precise statements about what is and what is not an exploit. The whole thing seems a little vague.


I think the whole situation, all potential problems with the mechanic being used unfairly could be resolved by either adding a toggle to accept or not accept corp fire. Which allows those who don't want to practice or play around to shut it off, and those who do to leave it on.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-10-27 18:33:43 UTC
Welcome to the fail FPS MMO that is EVE. Its shoot first, pod second, bitchwhine on the forums (more targets to lowsec or same corp gangbanging) and anything goes on how to do it for the killmail. Its why the general community sucks when it comes to respect, paranoia is you friend, and there is an argument between getting people out of NPC corps into PC corps and general asshattery of how you can abuse peoples trust to your own benifit as to why people should leave NPC corps in the first place. 11% tax to virtual coffers is better off then in another players hands and at least when they attack you non-aggressed they have to bring more people to gank you if sporting a fat buffer.
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
#15 - 2011-10-27 18:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Messoroz
Quote:
The problem is that apparently the GMs and BH's I have spoken with today don't feel that this also extends to using the corp 'trick' for non-war targets. That means that anyone, at any time is able to, and allowed, to join any ones corp, or invite someone to join your corp and approve their application and then subsequently attack, destroy, extort or otherwise surprise them with a method that can not be defended against in most cases, can not be prevented, and circumvents Police and Concord mechanics.


You do realize how much of a bloody ****** you sound right?

YOU JOINED A CORP AND GOT KILLED BY CORPMATES, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WARTARGETS, CONCORD, OR EVEN THE ******* RULES. YOU ARE THE CANCER KILLING EVE.
Thaeric
Doomheim
#16 - 2011-10-28 15:31:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaeric
Messoroz wrote:


You do realize how much of a bloody ****** you sound right?

YOU JOINED A CORP AND GOT KILLED BY CORPMATES, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WARTARGETS, CONCORD, OR EVEN THE ******* RULES. YOU ARE THE CANCER KILLING EVE.



Thank you for taking the time to explain your feelings on the discussion and bringing so much to the table. You are an absolute gem and the Eve community is that much better off because of you and people like you. You know, those that are capable of such feats as cutting right through a completely logical discussion, cutting things out of context and insulting the speaker to prove your point.
The problem is, you're ability to hit caps lock, or type ***'s doesn't actually add to the discussion, it only side tracks it slightly, long enough for everyone to see what a wonderful person you are.

That said, this discussion is in the "Features and Ideas Discussion" section because it is a suggestion. If you don't like the suggestions, or the discussion, that's fine. But to completely ignore the entire topic and subject of a thread and simply pull pieces out of the example to try to make this into a chest-pounding or peeing contest, that's just wasteful of every ones time involved.

It is clear that a lot of the community looks at this subject and says 'Meh, it's been that way for years, just deal with it'. I get that, and I understand the mentality. What I do not understand is why people like you feel the need to flame or make things personal when the purpose of the thread is to discuss whether or not a feature should be changed, and if so, how. I thank you for sticking to the topic of the thread in future posts.


@Aqriue - I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and that's partly why I started talking about this.
A lot of people I know that have played Eve for years commonly complain that there just aren't enough people in player corps, or that too many stick to NPC corps indefinitely, and there is really no incentive for them to leave. Those same people also point out that it's difficult to meet and get to know people when you're new to the game. I believe this mechanic, and the way it's used to attack players, is one of the reasons behind those problems. Simply because something that nearly every MMO player (not familiar with EvE) comes into eve expecting that system to be similar to what they're used to, and relatively safe ... is anything but.

I can't even try to guess how many new players join the game and the first thought in their mind, as with many other MMOs, is to find a player run guild/clan (corp) to learn from. I don't recall seeing warnings that it's common for player corps to recruit you just so they can attack you during the tutorials. That doesn't mean they're not there, but I certainly don't remember them from when I was new to the game. If it's not a clear warning, and obviously not something new players expect, it means a majority of new players are completely unknowing of this 'tactic' and will not be wary enough about it, leading them to get into trouble. Let's face it, Eve is a tough game for new players, there's a lot to pick up on and read chances are any obscure warnings about this are lost in the multitudes of wikis, guides, and tip sections.
That makes me wonder why such a mechanic is present, and why it has been left in place for so long?

Can anyone tell me why the mechanic is actually there to begin with? To be able to attack your own corp mates? The only thing I can think of is pvp practice.
What would be lost by changing it to either not allowing internal corp combat unless toggled, or removing it completely?
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#17 - 2011-10-28 15:46:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
Feligast wrote:

I will reiterate. And use small words. no. one. forced. you. to. join. OR. APPLY. to. that. corp. ...


So, by your logic, if I have an alt without roles in an alliance that's been wardec'd, and they start to attack my alt, I can drop corp immediately without it being an exploit, right? After all, no. one. forced. them. to. shoot. me. after. I. dropped. corp.

Your logic... isn't.



HOWEVER... CCP recently stated that the mechanics in place to join or leave corps while wardec'd will no longer be considered an exploit if the mechanics present in the game are used... so based on this new policy I think I answered my own question...

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.