EVE General Discussion

And you believe that highsec absolutely cannot afford a nerf under any circumstance because any nerf would lead to some catastrophic and dire outcome.

Yet you're telling us that we're the ones who are stuck.

How can "not perfect" compete with "unlimited volume and perfect"?

Make a suggestion. If you can't think of a way to make them competitive without nerfing HS, you can't continue to claim that HS shouldn't be nerfed.

Saying "rebalance it so you don't nerf HS" isn't a suggestion, it's a dodge.

Make a specific suggestion.

titan aoe doomsdays weren't broken - the titan pilots were fine.

instead, every other ship should have been given an aoe doomsday to compete

I did make something specific, but obviously you aren't paying attention so I have to spell it out for you...

Say for example they made it where 90% was High Sec's max, however that 90% after the change gave the same amount after the change as 100% did before (scrap modules would be tricker... best to make sure you can't get more minerals than you put in after all). Null sec however is able to reach true 100%, though maybe a little harder to actually make it worth training up the skills more. Bam, because you risked more being out deep in null sec, you get more. Production can be sped up in null sec for smaller ships, higher T2 blueprint copy rates, but at an amount based off the possibility of getting blown up so that in theory, supply stays the same, there's just higher potential profit in null sec.

Methods to increase trade in null sec. Encouragement, tools, and defenses for sov to maybe set up trading posts, limiting who can make sell and buy orders. The ability to boot someone out said station along with their stuff. Perhaps if Goons for example wanted to encourage trade with their allies, or have their industrialists be encouraged to stay by a specific trading post. I really don't want to go into detail with this element because I'm not sure how all it'd work, but hey, its a concept, maybe get some thoughts flowing.

Again, if the math showed this as not viable over time, then they could slowly move to more extreme measures. Hell, maybe CCP should get their economist discussing some ideas based on where he thinks where the problem lies to throw some ideas out there first. I'd love to hear his thoughts on it.

If refining isn't an issue, then it shouldn't be being brought up as something to nerf and really those were just some examples. If you're going to shoot down ideas just because it "isn't enough" that isn't being open to suggestions. At that point you're just being a close minded child. Also when I said "T2 blueprint copy rates" I wasn't talking about copying BPOs, I was talking about invention. I didn't say make things more dangerous, I said balance the rates around the dangers. Understand the idea before you criticize. Also high sec does not have unlimited manufacturing. There's a set number of slots and pretty much all the good ones are constantly taken up and constantly being competed over. Quite literally my suggestions do exactly the same thing nerfing would do, which is make manufacturing in the area better. Making something better does not always involve nerfs. There are ALWAYS ways to buff things. ALWAYS. High sec manufacturing POSs are pretty popular for a reason, and those automatically are not 100% safe due to wardecs.

EDIT: and no, I'm not saying to always buff rather than nerf, I just don't see nerfing as necessary in this situation, when as it is, moving more stuff into null sec is a supply balancer in itself if done right

I didn't say it isn't an issue. I said it isn't the issue. Also, I haven't brought it up in this thread. Refining in nullsec is a pain, but not an enormous one.

Speed is not a significant factor for Invention any more than for manufacturing. (BTW, when you say "T2 Blueprint Copy rates" you can't say it's my fault for not divining that you're talking about invention)

I spent the month before the most recent patch manufacturing 2 Jumps out from Jita. I never once had to wait in a queue. Jita regularly has stations with open slots. When the station manufacturing capacity in HS is so high that you never have to wait in a queue 2 jumps from Jita, it is effectively unlimited.

The HS rate is effectively 0. To "balance the rates around the dangers," nullsec lines would have to Pay manufacturers for manufacturing there. Which is idiotic.


HS has literally perfect manufacturing capabilities. To be competitive, Nullsec would have to be better than perfect which would:
a) Break refining in hilarious ways or
b) create an unlimited mineral faucet or
c) create an unlimited ISK faucet


Yeah, you might lose a 300m ISK POS once a decade due to a random wardec. That's how many ISK/hr/slot in amortized risk? Look at the number of dead sticks in the Forge to get an idea of how "dangerous" being a HS POS is.

I call bullshit on the not having a queue... pretty much whenever I look in a heavy manufacturing area, its flooded with VERY long queues.. and frankly, speed is a factor whether you say it is or not. If one person in nullsec can accomplish more with a single account than someone in high sec, that's a significant advantage even if you want to pretend it isn't. And no, you wouldn't have to pay manufacturers. Say on average 10% of goods manufactured in null sec are destroyed. Just throwing a number out there, don't look too deep in it. Say nullsec had a 10% bonus to all levels of manufacturing. Bam, that's 10% more potential profit to someone who does the job right, but overall supply stays steady.

As for your "a", "b", "c", that's where the math comes in. If the math shows that WILL be the result, so be it, nerf. But don't ASSUME it will be the result. This is something that can be calculated and dealt with.



I don't show you or anyone else throwing out numbers that prove all other options aren't viable. If someone has those numbers, then anyone with half a brain cell would have to admit it. I doubt either of us want to spend the time on running those numbers though, and I'm not going to assume there's only one way of doing it without them, I'm just saying given the option in this case, nurfing should be lower on the list than buffing if its viable.


EDIT: I will also say, assuming you're not just pulling my leg with the Jita thing, then yes, they should greatly reduce the number of station slots or greatly increase the length of them, but I'm not convinced my leg isn't being pulled from my personal experience... I do also know tutorial manufacturing really is used for too much else other that tutorial missions...

All that noise, and I still don't see any answer to the two questions that are at the heart of the matter:

How on earth would balancing production to be the same in all space “obliterate” the economy?
How do you balance a cost-free economy against one that comes with inherent and unavoidable costs without either adding costs to the cost-free one or adding repayment to the one with inherent costs?

Where do you think the suggested numbers for outpost buffs and NPC tax increases come from…?

As for reducing the number of slots, I'll give you something to ponder on just so you understand the scale of the problem and why people are shouting at you when you try to suggest that buffing null will solve everything.

Just so you know, Jita (a single system) has 300 slots.
Sobaseki (one jump away) has 250 slots.
Nonni (another five jumps) has 750 slots.
Lonetrek as a whole has 7,400 slots.
Highsec as a whole has 68,050 slots.

Tribute (an entire well-built null region) as whole had 497 regular production slots at the last count.
Two thirds of the fixed production slots in the game are concentrated in less than one fifth of the available space.

Kakakela VII - CNAP 2 jumps from Jita. I experienced no queues when building BCs for about a month before the patch.

Then that person in nullsec (assuming they can do twice as much (i.e. a time multiplier of .5), and Nullsec has as many free station slots as HS ()) has saved 24k ISK/hr/slot over someone in HS funding a second account. That is 50k ISK for a Hurricane. That is insignificant compared to the increased effort, cost, and risk. Thus production time will not be anywhere near enough to balance Null v High. (If it could be, people would be primarily manufacturing their stuff in POSes in HS to get that .75 time multiplier.)

10% of what? Time? As I showed above, that's insignificant in the face of the unlimited free manufacturing capacity of HS. Materials? Then it's either going to break refining entirely or create an infinite mineral faucet.


Once again, you're claiming that Nullsec industry can be fixed without nerfing HS. Come up with a way to do it or stop trying to claim it.






Jita 4 M6 -CPS currently has an 18hr queue. On a weekend.

What numbers are you looking for? HS is Free, Risk Free, Unlimited, and Convenient. How do you propose to compete with that when Nullsec is automatically not Free*, Risk Free**, or Convenient*** (I'll assume step one of any Fix is increasing station slots in outposts, so we'll grant nullsec unlimited slots for the sake of argument.)?

*Gotta build stations or run POSes, so slots are not, and never will be, free.
**Get invaded, lose anything in build, at a minimum.
***Freighter on Autopilot is more convenient than a JF.

if people would read, and respond to the OP instead of making irrelevant comments....

that'd be great.