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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Mund Richard
#2461 - 2013-02-21 14:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Denson022 wrote:
My point is that a Cane / Drake/ Harbinger will need less time to kill a 35K ehp cruiser, the Cyclone will kill it but it will require more time wich mean more DPS to tank over the time.

hope that clarifies my idea

You are still faster than the others, thus have a better chance of denying the cruiser of disengaging you.
You also CHOSE to fit neuts in your highs, unlike the others (who usually don't have extra hardpoints), nerfing your dps.
Guess what, then you have more neuts than any other BC! Turning off the tank of the cruiser? Sure! Faster gank for you!
Turning off their guns faster, leading to no damage being taken that you need to tank? As long as they are not minmatar or use missles, check.

That the Cyclone cannot do everything at the same time, I think that's working as intended.

And you are still comparing ships to each other in a 1v1 gank situation (because as you say, it will kill the prey).

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2462 - 2013-02-21 15:03:04 UTC
Denson022 wrote:
[

I think that the Cyclone needs a little boost to its DPS power - i like this ship, i like how it looks and i like the feel of an underdog.
- The increased mineral need is already affecing this ship usefulness since it's not really on par with other BC.
- Once your drones are down a Caracal has the same DPS as the Cyclone
- It has a goos speed among BC but is it a good enough trade off for such low firepower?

I did some EFT warrioring to compare them, applied DPS given below is at 7.5Km range for the purpose of this comparison
With a flight of light drones - Myrmidon and Prophecy being the exception here
No boost / implants / drugs no T2 Missiles used since they suck against cruiser sized vessels.
Full Tackle Scram/Web/ MWD combo on all ships

Cyclone - 5x HAMS II : 495 dps (navy KIN) - 81 K ehp XLASB 1 clip

Drake - 6x HAMS II : 630 dps (Navy KIN ) - LSE + 2 INV Fields 75K ehp + 100 average dps tank = 80-85 k EHP

Ferox - 7x H Ions II : 490 dps (Null for effective dps in that range) - 86k EHP ASB 1 clip. Has more buffer to get a reload.

Hurricane - 6x 220AC II : 555 DPS ( RF EMP) - 67 K EHP average - Armor Buffer

Harbinger - 6x H pulse II : 710 DPS (conflag) - 71 K Ehp armor buffer

Brutix - 6x H Electrons II : 480 DPS (Null same as Ferox rule) - 76 K Ehp MAR II + New MAAR 1 clip.

Myrmidon - 5x180 AC (RF EMP) + 5 Hammer : 398 DPS 2x MAR II + New MAAR Dual Cap inj - 100 K Ehp
+ 4 Ogre : 495
Prophecy - HAMS + 2x Drone DMG amp with Hammerheads : 495 DPS and 102K Ehp Resist + New MAAR


Anything that comes closer will make more DPS than the Cyclone or has more tank... wich is bad for the cyclone the Minmatar tanking BC.
The ferox Tanks as well as the Cyclone with ASB mods, has better buffer in hope to get a reload and does same damage with only 4 Low slots and doesn't require a Co-Processor to fit a XL ASB.

And if we speak missile boats the 140 DPS advantage of the drake is huge while keeping the same tank as the Cyclone.


1) Rather collored story
- most o those ships don't have the range of the Cyclone, so it's faster and outranges half of them.
- there somehow the Prophesy gets 5 hammerheads, which the Cyclone can have as well it also used drone DMG amp's, Cyclone can use both BCU's and Drone damage amp.
- no where in this story do you do anything with the Extra high slot


2) Missiles and EFTdon't match there will always be a % of that 495 that will be aplied to those targets.
so set it off against the Drake and the Prophecy.

The Cyclone is that fastest of those three, and has the lowest base Signature, so it will reduce aplied damage.

It has more low slots than the drake, Which can do damage or increase speed (give both fit a DCU)
The Drake will always do Kineticor it's damage is 420dps. Kinetic is the second strongest base resist of the Cyclone, while you can fire at the Drakes EM -Hole, or Therm.

then there is the 2 utillity slots the Cyclone has, Smart bombs, neuts, drones range with HM missiles, cloak.

I am a Missile pilot and I've placed my drakes in the hanger and bought myself a couple of those nice Cyclones, who will replace the Nano Drake which is about the only small gang, solo PvP drake that isn't used or bait.
Denson022
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2463 - 2013-02-21 15:14:28 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Denson022 wrote:
My point is that a Cane / Drake/ Harbinger will need less time to kill a 35K ehp cruiser, the Cyclone will kill it but it will require more time wich mean more DPS to tank over the time.

hope that clarifies my idea

You are still faster than the others, thus have a better chance of denying the cruiser of disengaging you.
You also CHOSE to fit neuts in your highs, unlike the others (who usually don't have extra hardpoints), nerfing your dps.
Guess what, then you have more neuts than any other BC! Turning off the tank of the cruiser? Sure! Faster gank for you!
Turning off their guns faster, leading to no damage being taken that you need to tank? As long as they are not minmatar or use missles, check.

That the Cyclone cannot do everything at the same time, I think that's working as intended.

And you are still comparing ships to each other in a 1v1 gank situation (because as you say, it will kill the prey).



I admit you have a point here
But still having to put a co-processor in the low slot the cyclone just gained is odd to me since the Ferox don't need one.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2464 - 2013-02-21 15:17:35 UTC
Denson022 wrote:
The reason behing my 7.5km range is that if you want to apply HAMS DPS on a Cruiser you need a web.
That means you also get in web range and a cruiser will close down ( thorax / Rupture) to you with its speed.

i didnt used the 2 hi slots beacause they are to me Utility slots for CAP warfare vs frigs and Cruisers
you can slap two 180 or even 220 AC and get some more DPS .. 590 rounded with 5 Hobgoblins.
But then you have no options to keep you Invulnerability field ON, since the passive bonus is gone it's a lifesaver.
IMO you fit a Med Neut/ Nos + smal Neut/Nos inthe remaining 2 hi slots.

The speed the Cyclone has is good if you get vs another BC and need to Disengage.
It helps mitigate applied DPS, vs AC and Blasters it works pretty well.
My point is that a Cane / Drake/ Harbinger will need less time to kill a 35K ehp cruiser, the Cyclone will kill it but it will require more time wich mean more DPS to tank over the time.

hope that clarifies my idea



Try a Target Painter works as well, and with good skills you're doing more than enough damage against a cruiser.

If you need to get close try a smart bomb,

Drake will have major problems against cruisers the Drake can't dictate speed and it's a brick, a good Caracal fit with a Good pilot will eat the drake and it's nifty tank, it out ranges the drake with the same weapons, and it is way faster, kytes it to oblivion.

Cyclone can use Hammerheads on the cruiser. or double neut out of it's MWD.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#2465 - 2013-02-21 18:59:26 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
If the Prophesy can out-rep the Myrm and Brutix, then what is the Myrm/Brutix niche, and why do I need to type Myrm/Brutix when they both should fill their own unique niche?
This doesn't even consider that resist bonuses have advantages outside local tanking, and the bonus is never wasted, whether buffer tanking, in a gang, local, etc.

With local rep bonuses, you only receive the bonus when you locally tank, and you completely throw it away when you don't. One of the Gallente BCs should have received a Hurricane-stype treatment of 2x dps bonuses and the other should have had its bonus include remote as well as local reps.
Not sure if the Brutix needs a Cane-style double-damage though, it has the highest dps system already.
This is why I didn't say Brutix specifically. Although I believe either would be fine, I think the Myrm would be quite successful as the game's first true drone boat, with having both bonuses support drone-based damage and damage application.

Creative bonuses like "Increased drone orbiting and tracking speed" would make Ogres as fast as Hammerheads, and the hull itself is a perfect candidate to receive double drone-based bonuses: It's got a great slot layout that lends to shield or armor tanking, as well as neutral weapon-based damage (with no bonuses to any), so any pilot is free to use whatever weapon system they have trained.

The Brutix, OTOH, would be great with dual weapon bonuses, but I fear it'd intrude on Deimos and Proteus/Astarte for damage, and I think the overlap with the Deimos is what would ultimately hold this hull back from being the double dps bonused Gallente hull.

So let's get that Mrym a second drone bonus and make the game's first true drone-damage boat with 2x drone bonuses!

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DR BiCarbonate
Doomriders.
#2466 - 2013-02-21 23:55:56 UTC
Bring back my cyclone, kthx
To mare
Advanced Technology
#2467 - 2013-02-22 09:04:24 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
seems to me the problem with resist bonus when compared to rep bonus is that they both do the same thing in a different way and one is limiting where the other is not....

The solution is to replace resist bonus with hit-points bonus this would also have the knock on effect of making T2 ships more resist based which would give more reason to fly them


yeah it just take time for people to realize that, especially if the ppl are from CCP staff its something like 5 years its like that and they still have no idea how to fix it
To mare
Advanced Technology
#2468 - 2013-02-22 09:10:28 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Except that the cyclone can choose it's damage type.

the difference between the drake and the cyclone with not-kinetic missile is smaller than you think especially because the drake can make a use of its lows while the cyclone have so **** fittings that it cant fit more than 2 BCS if you wanna use the active tanking bonus
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2469 - 2013-02-22 11:23:13 UTC
To mare wrote:
Altrue wrote:
Except that the cyclone can choose it's damage type.

the difference between the drake and the cyclone with not-kinetic missile is smaller than you think especially because the drake can make a use of its lows while the cyclone have so **** fittings that it cant fit more than 2 BCS if you wanna use the active tanking bonus


It fits perfectly using the right (medium) shield booster. Not the ships fault if you have to fit oversized modules. Oh wait...
SoOza N'GasZ
L F C
Ethereal Dawn
#2470 - 2013-02-22 11:49:58 UTC
Hurricane nerfing is a Sin.

first off whats the point in buying different ships if they are all pretty much equal within a tier..... just because of the race we chose at the beginning of the game?

And why cant we in balancing terms simply respect eve for what it is (to an extent that still works of course) without god constantly changing epic things that where for years, into completely medicore soso bits of metal?

The epicness of now nerfed ships where what defined that part of eve ... ccp is constantly working to make eve flat in my opinion.

I find it really disturbing that eve is subject to constant buffing. I dont like ccp 'constantly' intervening with 'working' things because they kind of made eve what it was..... in a way if they want to be sincere in an artistic way then they have to respect an environments flaws as well as its strengths. This would need to be done in order to give eve credibility as a fictional but artisticly and immersively seen real world or universe. (in order to enjoy lord of the rings or alien, u have to believe its real for the duration of the film.

real world places also are not always perfectly balanced.

i agree this intervention makes sense yet it kinda makes eve a little less eve and a little more space simulation.

and i am sort of paying to play eve.... i mean.... it began as a place with hardly any rules... *small tear*

I honestly have to say that this is really turning me off eve.

Legba
May O'Neez
Flying Blacksmiths
#2471 - 2013-02-22 12:17:38 UTC  |  Edited by: May O'Neez
I think this is a bit ironic to have changed Cyclone into a missile boat in order to "ensure continuity of missile ships of inferior sizes", where the result is the breaking of continuity of Minmatar PVE (ie guns + shield) ships.

I don't like missiles and I don't like armor tanking (therefore I have put very little in it). OK, I could do L4 with BS, but sometime I like also doing L3, where BC is more suitable (and its T2 variant for more fun and rampage). Either Cyclone or Claymore. Now both are dead ( or the second will be ) and there is no appropriate ship for PVE in the BC line.

I'm eager to know what the result will be, in terms of fitting and ships usages for people focusing in L3 because I'm sadly confident as for now that the only way is giving up what people have trained for.
Daniel Whateley
#2472 - 2013-02-22 12:32:12 UTC
to be honest it doesn't seem like they're making the changes for PVE purposes, almost all the new changes have been PVP related, it was already hard to find a decent PVE ship now its just even worse, take the thorax for example, its reduction in microwarp cap penalty removal and an added mid slot instead made its cap quite terrible, it actually has on average 30% less gj\s... making it unable to use an armor repairer anymore and pushing it toward an armor buffer tank....
Mund Richard
#2473 - 2013-02-22 14:58:29 UTC
May O'Neez wrote:
Either Cyclone or Claymore. Now both are dead ( or the second will be ).
Nothing bad happening to the Claymore as far as I know.

That is, winmatar - like the rest - will have two command ships, one with missiles, the other with guns, both being able to shoot, both being able to boost.
Much better than the current way of the boosting being limited to one weapon, and the ganky being limited to the other (or in the Gallente case not even that).

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
PROMETEUS PRIME
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2474 - 2013-02-22 17:28:49 UTC
Well, Filed a petition on how they **** up some very usfull ships the other day and as i suspected the replie was from a **** politiotian.

Here is a message for you CCP, you are ship balancing ppls out of the game here and you are doing it in a fast pace too...
Grats on that, if that was the intention i say you have succeded fairly well.

I have been in this game now for years and i have enjoyed every minutte of it too...that have now changed massivly
and if this **** you guys are pulling right now is to continue, i know for sure 5 accounts going out of this game and probably another 50- 60 of them with mine. These are for your information all payed with real cash and not plexed. Just so you guys get this, you have pissed of alot of ppls lately and quite a few of them goes years back in the game.

And stop answering petitions like politicians, that **** only pisses more ppls of then you need these days.

So a final word, i am going to run my accounts til til they expire this spring and in that time i will see if i find it
remotly interesting to continue, this allso counts for alot oif the ppls i play the game with everyday in here.

Pull your head out of your ass and wake up CCP
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2475 - 2013-02-22 20:55:48 UTC
switching cyclone slots for missiles was the worse mistake anyone could ever do it.yet ccp done it.no justice!
Lili Lu
#2476 - 2013-02-22 21:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
PROMETEUS PRIME wrote:
Here is a message for you CCP, you are ship balancing ppls out of the game here and you are doing it in a fast pace too...
Grats on that, if that was the intention i say you have succeded fairly well.

I have been in this game now for years and i have enjoyed every minutte of it too...that have now changed massivly
and if this **** you guys are pulling right now is to continue, i know for sure 5 accounts going out of this game and probably another 50- 60 of them with mine. These are for your information all payed with real cash and not plexed. Just so you guys get this, you have pissed of alot of ppls lately and quite a few of them goes years back in the game.

So a final word, i am going to run my accounts til til they expire this spring and in that time i will see if i find it
remotly interesting to continue, this allso counts for alot oif the ppls i play the game with everyday in here.

Pull your head out of your ass and wake up CCP

Maybe you can graduate someday from the school of applied knowledge. Either that or post with your main.Straight

I'm not happy with the BC rebalance. Frigates and Cruisers were fairly well done. Although still problems in those ship classes. But the BC rebalance is leaving a Drake domination in place. And the second place competitor will now be the Prophecy instead of the Hurricane. But at least I'm not posting with an npc corp alt and qq-ing about it.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#2477 - 2013-02-22 21:57:19 UTC
Oghedron wrote:
Hi Fozzie,

Is it possible for the brutix to get 11 more powergrid?

The hurricane and harbinger can both fit 1600 plates, mwd and a full rack of their largest guns. The harbinger can also fit a med. cap booster while the hurricane only needs a small. The ferox can fit a full rack of ions, a mwd, a medium cap booster and an equivalent shield tank (10k higher than the armor, but larger sig).

The brutix cannot fit a mwd, med. cap booster, 1600 plate and a full rack of ions. It has to use a small cap booster. The 9 powergrid would allow it to fit a meta cap booster but not a neut in its place.

All the other ships can use a t2 cap booster.

Thanks and great job!


Shocked

If you cannon fit a 1600mm plate to a repped bonus ship that repairs about 1100 armor hp back every 7.7 seconds, then why dont ya use 2x 800mm plates instead?

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2478 - 2013-02-22 22:31:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Recoil IV wrote:
switching cyclone slots for missiles was the worse mistake anyone could ever do it.yet ccp done it.no justice!
I disagree. It's nice to have more missile boats. And you can hate on the current Cyclone all you want, and I can agree with half of what you guys say about it, but at the end of the day you have to admit that the current cyclone is still more useful and more powerful than the pre-1.1 Cyclone.

elitatwo wrote:
If you cannon fit a 1600mm plate to a repped bonus ship that repairs about 1100 armor hp back every 7.7 seconds, then why dont ya use 2x 800mm plates instead?
Because it doesn't have enough low slots. That 1100 armor HP you speak of has low resists, so the EHP return isn't all that high.

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Mundi Kundoni
Brittas Empire
Pandemic Horde
#2479 - 2013-02-23 02:20:07 UTC
Quick question for you Mr Fozzy!

With the skill changes you have made it abundantly clear that your intention is to not force people to train a useless skill in order to fly a ship (ie bs5 for a carrier) which is awesome! This obvious time sink has always troubled me - but my question is this will the same thinking end up being applied to gunnery? For example I'm thinking of training a vargur pilot for plexing - great! But in order to get my nice shiny t2 repeating artilleries ill have to first train small and medium auto cannons to v plus their specialisations to iv - both of which are skills I would never use on said pilot. Will changes be made to this to put gunnery support skills in place of this wasted SP and training time?

Love n hugs
Mund Richard
#2480 - 2013-02-23 02:30:48 UTC
You're not the first to ask about why one must take the smaller caliber guns to V and then spec for battleship-sized weaponry.
I believe the answer was a mild "we'll think about that", but may I be proven wrong.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.