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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Author
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#2441 - 2013-02-20 16:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
I was excited to have a chance to see a Cyclone that can do something unique.

It's complete trash now. I can do more with a Rupture.

There is absolutely no reason to fly a Cyclone over a Drake. No, it doesn't give you better damage options, cuz the damage is trash to start. The numbers may look "alright", but when applying it, it's complete trash again.

You need to fix this ship because it completely fails to accomplish any of the goals you intended.

Where I am.

Cap'n Thich
Perkone
Caldari State
#2442 - 2013-02-20 16:55:08 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
this update is just terribad.

drake now have big DPS, and is able to apply it almost all the time, while the other BC are not.

the hi on the cane is not that much, but still unpleasant.

now the big slice of s***t:

cyclone is now useless again: no matar use missile, those who can, dps is ridiculous
myrm: why go myrm, prophecy does bettter all over the board
brutix: the ferox now perform better

now you have battlecruisers unable to out dps cruisers.....nice job CCP, very nice job.....




ehhhh.... Combat BCs def out DPS/EHP combat cruisers, but in most cases not by much. CCP did an excellent job balancing the cruisers with Retribution. But I just feel like CCP hasnt given BCs their proper niche yet.
Oghedron
School of Life
#2443 - 2013-02-20 17:02:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Oghedron
Hi Fozzie,

Is it possible for the brutix to get 11 more powergrid?

The hurricane and harbinger can both fit 1600 plates, mwd and a full rack of their largest guns. The harbinger can also fit a med. cap booster while the hurricane only needs a small. The ferox can fit a full rack of ions, a mwd, a medium cap booster and an equivalent shield tank (10k higher than the armor, but larger sig).

The brutix cannot fit a mwd, med. cap booster, 1600 plate and a full rack of ions. It has to use a small cap booster. The 9 powergrid would allow it to fit a meta cap booster but not a neut in its place.

All the other ships can use a t2 cap booster.

Thanks and great job!
Cap'n Thich
Perkone
Caldari State
#2444 - 2013-02-20 17:13:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Cap'n Thich
Oghedron wrote:
Hi Fozzie,

Is it possible for the brutix to get 9 more powergrid?

The hurricane and harbinger can both fit 1600 plates, mwd and a full rack of their largest guns. The harbinger can also fit a med. cap booster while the hurricane only needs a small. The ferox can fit a full rack of ions, a mwd, a medium cap booster and an equivalent shield tank (10k higher than the armor, but larger sig).

The brutix cannot fit a mwd, med. cap booster, 1600 plate and a full rack of ions. It has to use a small cap booster. The 9 powergrid would allow it to fit a meta cap booster but not a neut in its place.

All the other ships can use a t2 cap booster.

Thanks and great job!



Full rack of their largest guns? Negative. For 1600 plated cane and harby you'l need to go their medium sized close range weapons. (Unless you put ACR rigs, but that'd just be silly.) Now I've never flew a Brutix, but I'm sure its the same.

I just tried it and yeah. Can't fit a 1600 plated Brutix with Ions, unless you have implants for PG.
Oghedron
School of Life
#2445 - 2013-02-20 17:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Oghedron
Why is it silly to fit 1 ACR rig when it allows you to fit a full rack of the largest short range gun, which give more range and damage?

I am not even asking to fit the largest guns on a brutix, only a meta medium cap booster. It is the only turret bc that has to drop to its smallest guns to fit a similar tank, mwd and booster. The other ones can even fit a t2 booster with no issues.

Is there something wrong with what I am asking?
Cap'n Thich
Perkone
Caldari State
#2446 - 2013-02-20 18:54:05 UTC
Oghedron wrote:
Why is it silly to fit 1 ACR rig when it allows you to fit a full rack of the largest short range gun, which give more range and damage?

I am not even asking to fit the largest guns on a brutix, only a meta medium cap booster. It is the only turret bc that has to drop to its smallest guns to fit a similar tank, mwd and booster. The other ones can even fit a t2 booster with no issues.

Is there something wrong with what I am asking?



No not silly to fit just one. I was talking about the multiples you would need to fit the larger guns. But like i said you can't fit the medium guns on a brutix with a 1600 plate. Seems odd.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#2447 - 2013-02-20 19:17:33 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:

- I didn't comment on the Harbi or the Hurricane because I don't normally fly them and haven't had the time to mess with them, which I mentioned at the end of my post. So what I mentioned were my INITIAL observations thus far of the REBALANCE on the ships that I am well skilled for. And yes, I fly mostly Gallente boats. So I am sure that your statements are accurate but not really sure what your hostility is all about but I wouldn't comment on two ships I don't mess with much. So chill out.

As far as getting it all, I really don't think that the goal of balance has been achieved when the Amarr drone boat out triple reps and Myrm that is also triple repping? I also really can't seem to find a useful Brutix armor rep fit, which is WHAT THE BOAT is supposed to do. Fozzie did a great job on the frig/cruiser line, and the incursus has actually become a good little boat. However, the Brutix fails to perform sufficiently like a big incursus if that is the idea. I am more than willing to see if someone can suggest a good fit and I'll happily try it, though I seriously doubt there are many situations I can think of where I would use it. Faction warfare and places like RvB have found a good home for the Incursus. Not sure if a similar environment exists for a BC this weak. Particularly with the strength of T1 logi now.

The Mrym? It needs to loose that armor rep bonus and gain a second drone bonus: 5% per level to drone MWD speed and Drone tracking.

Yeah, sorry about that. You've done nothing to offend me really, so why am I angry at you? I'm just getting upset with the endless bit I'm hearing about how terrible the Gallente ships will be after every patch. I heard it for all the Gallente frigates, the Destroyers, and the Cruisers, and now the BC's. And they really haven't turned out badly so far. If you ask me, so far they've all been pretty decent. I'm just getting fed up with hearing how "teribul" the new Gallente ships will be in comparison to the others. "Algos is crap, and Corax will be OP!" and so on and so on. I mean, at least the Minmatar had something to whine about. The Rifter is obsoleted at any one role, and the Ruppie is meh, and the Stabber is... fast, and that's about it. The 'Cane completely deserved what it is getting, but the point stands.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
#2448 - 2013-02-20 19:32:11 UTC
Oghedron wrote:
Hi Fozzie,

Is it possible for the brutix to get 11 more powergrid?

The hurricane and harbinger can both fit 1600 plates, mwd and a full rack of their largest guns. The harbinger can also fit a med. cap booster while the hurricane only needs a small. The ferox can fit a full rack of ions, a mwd, a medium cap booster and an equivalent shield tank (10k higher than the armor, but larger sig).

The brutix cannot fit a mwd, med. cap booster, 1600 plate and a full rack of ions. It has to use a small cap booster. The 9 powergrid would allow it to fit a meta cap booster but not a neut in its place.

All the other ships can use a t2 cap booster.

Thanks and great job!

Shield tank it, you can pull almost 1k DPS shield tanked.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Mund Richard
#2449 - 2013-02-20 19:41:36 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Yeah, sorry about that. You've done nothing to offend me really, so why am I angry at you? I'm just getting upset with the endless bit I'm hearing about how terrible the Gallente ships will be after every patch. I heard it for all the Gallente frigates, the Destroyers, and the Cruisers, and now the BC's. And they really haven't turned out badly so far. If you ask me, so far they've all been pretty decent. I'm just getting fed up with hearing how "teribul" the new Gallente ships will be in comparison to the others. "Algos is crap, and Corax will be OP!" and so on and so on. I mean, at least the Minmatar had something to whine about. The Rifter is obsoleted at any one role, and the Ruppie is meh, and the Stabber is... fast, and that's about it. The 'Cane completely deserved what it is getting, but the point stands.

Dunno, didn't quite like the destroyer due to it's odd bandwidth true, but the combat cruisers getting a 4th mid, Vexor becoming the "tanky" and Thorax the "ganky" really made me happy.
Somehow CCP went out of awesome afterwards for us at that time.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#2450 - 2013-02-20 20:23:08 UTC
Well the brutix is a very nice ship, if you shield tank it. The armour tanking bonus continues to be a red herring. Anyone else tried it out?
Letrange
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2451 - 2013-02-20 20:27:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The extra materials trick is required to prevent what would be a pretty nasty exploit every time we update items. It's not being used without reason and we're not intending for every item to have it, just the items for which it is needed.

It's too bad you don't record the materials used in production with the end product. I realize that it saves probably significant database space recording the formula only with the bpo/c's but if it was recorded with the actual item it then wouldn't refine to an exploit.

I mean I realize why (market, I'm looking at you). Still.

Oh and it would be nice if you at least indicated on the BPOs when you've got part of the trit in the "other items" category so we know ahead of time how much won't get refined.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2452 - 2013-02-20 21:44:36 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
Well the brutix is a very nice ship, if you shield tank it. The armour tanking bonus continues to be a red herring. Anyone else tried it out?


The problem is the Talos is better at shield dps than the brutix and you can keep range with it too to stay alive longer

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

X Gallentius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2453 - 2013-02-20 23:25:56 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
It's not really hard to get the Brutix up to 1500 m/s with 1200 dps

But its bonus is wasted. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2454 - 2013-02-21 00:57:31 UTC
Here's what I think needs to happen:

Ferox:
* increase powergrid a bit. It fits more guns than the others, but doesn't have more powergrid to match.

Brutix:
* increase powergrid a bit. It was way too low before and it's still too low. It has almost nothing left over when you fit a full rack of its big guns, while the other brawler battlecruisers have a nice chunk to work with.

Cyclone:
* increase rate of fire bonus to 7.5% to be more in line with the 10% damage bonus other battlecruisers have. 7.5% rate of fire at max level gives a bit more dps, but when you factor in reloading more often and using up cargo space for ammo faster, it's reasonable. Also it only has 5 launchers anyway, it'll still hit weak but at least not like a wet paper napkin like right now. Even with the 7.5% RoF bonus and 1 extra autocannon, it still has slightly less DPS than a drake and that leaves an empty high slot on both.
* decrease powergrid a bit. The cyclone easily fits a microwarp, large shield extender, and x-large shield booster with a full rack of assault launchers. It's as if it was designed to fit the battleship-sized shield booster, for it has both the powergrid and the CPU to make fitting that as easy as fitting only cruiser modules to any other battlecruiser.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#2455 - 2013-02-21 05:18:03 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Here's what I think needs to happen:

Ferox:
* increase powergrid a bit. It fits more guns than the others, but doesn't have more powergrid to match.

Brutix:
* increase powergrid a bit. It was way too low before and it's still too low. It has almost nothing left over when you fit a full rack of its big guns, while the other brawler battlecruisers have a nice chunk to work with.

Cyclone:
* increase rate of fire bonus to 7.5% to be more in line with the 10% damage bonus other battlecruisers have. 7.5% rate of fire at max level gives a bit more dps, but when you factor in reloading more often and using up cargo space for ammo faster, it's reasonable. Also it only has 5 launchers anyway, it'll still hit weak but at least not like a wet paper napkin like right now. Even with the 7.5% RoF bonus and 1 extra autocannon, it still has slightly less DPS than a drake and that leaves an empty high slot on both.
* decrease powergrid a bit. The cyclone easily fits a microwarp, large shield extender, and x-large shield booster with a full rack of assault launchers. It's as if it was designed to fit the battleship-sized shield booster, for it has both the powergrid and the CPU to make fitting that as easy as fitting only cruiser modules to any other battlecruiser.

Ferox:
it seems to have a decent time fitting, so long as you don't try and jam on all the best stuff. Not sure on that one, but I haven't seen that it needs it too badly.

Brutix:
I can agree with that. After that it should be about where it needs to be.

Cyclone: I think the 7.5% RoF seems just a tiny bit too high. It gives it 8 effective launchers for every damage type while also having 2 utility highs (to the Drakes 9[kinetic only] and 1 utility). Sadly, there is no real middle ground here (say, a 6.25% or so) to give it over 7 effective, but with more utility, versatility and speed than the Drake. I'd actually quite like 6.66% giving it an effective 7.5 launchers. But I doubt we'll ever see CCP use a number like that *shrugs*.
Denson022
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2456 - 2013-02-21 12:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Denson022
Goldensaver wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Here's what I think needs to happen:

Ferox:
* increase powergrid a bit. It fits more guns than the others, but doesn't have more powergrid to match.

Brutix:
* increase powergrid a bit. It was way too low before and it's still too low. It has almost nothing left over when you fit a full rack of its big guns, while the other brawler battlecruisers have a nice chunk to work with.

Cyclone:
* increase rate of fire bonus to 7.5% to be more in line with the 10% damage bonus other battlecruisers have. 7.5% rate of fire at max level gives a bit more dps, but when you factor in reloading more often and using up cargo space for ammo faster, it's reasonable. Also it only has 5 launchers anyway, it'll still hit weak but at least not like a wet paper napkin like right now. Even with the 7.5% RoF bonus and 1 extra autocannon, it still has slightly less DPS than a drake and that leaves an empty high slot on both.
* decrease powergrid a bit. The cyclone easily fits a microwarp, large shield extender, and x-large shield booster with a full rack of assault launchers. It's as if it was designed to fit the battleship-sized shield booster, for it has both the powergrid and the CPU to make fitting that as easy as fitting only cruiser modules to any other battlecruiser.

Ferox:
it seems to have a decent time fitting, so long as you don't try and jam on all the best stuff. Not sure on that one, but I haven't seen that it needs it too badly.

Brutix:
I can agree with that. After that it should be about where it needs to be.

Cyclone: I think the 7.5% RoF seems just a tiny bit too high. It gives it 8 effective launchers for every damage type while also having 2 utility highs (to the Drakes 9[kinetic only] and 1 utility). Sadly, there is no real middle ground here (say, a 6.25% or so) to give it over 7 effective, but with more utility, versatility and speed than the Drake. I'd actually quite like 6.66% giving it an effective 7.5 launchers. But I doubt we'll ever see CCP use a number like that *shrugs*.



I think that the Cyclone needs a little boost to its DPS power - i like this ship, i like how it looks and i like the feel of an underdog.
- The increased mineral need is already affecing this ship usefulness since it's not really on par with other BC.
- Once your drones are down a Caracal has the same DPS as the Cyclone
- It has a goos speed among BC but is it a good enough trade off for such low firepower?

I did some EFT warrioring to compare them, applied DPS given below is at 7.5Km range for the purpose of this comparison
With a flight of light drones - Myrmidon and Prophecy being the exception here
No boost / implants / drugs no T2 Missiles used since they suck against cruiser sized vessels.
Full Tackle Scram/Web/ MWD combo on all ships

Cyclone - 5x HAMS II : 495 dps (navy KIN) - 81 K ehp XLASB 1 clip

Drake - 6x HAMS II : 630 dps (Navy KIN ) - LSE + 2 INV Fields 75K ehp + 100 average dps tank = 80-85 k EHP

Ferox - 7x H Ions II : 490 dps (Null for effective dps in that range) - 86k EHP ASB 1 clip. Has more buffer to get a reload.

Hurricane - 6x 220AC II : 555 DPS ( RF EMP) - 67 K EHP average - Armor Buffer

Harbinger - 6x H pulse II : 710 DPS (conflag) - 71 K Ehp armor buffer

Brutix - 6x H Electrons II : 480 DPS (Null same as Ferox rule) - 76 K Ehp MAR II + New MAAR 1 clip.

Myrmidon - 5x180 AC (RF EMP) + 5 Hammer : 398 DPS 2x MAR II + New MAAR Dual Cap inj - 100 K Ehp
+ 4 Ogre : 495
Prophecy - HAMS + 2x Drone DMG amp with Hammerheads : 495 DPS and 102K Ehp Resist + New MAAR


Anything that comes closer will make more DPS than the Cyclone or has more tank... wich is bad for the cyclone the Minmatar tanking BC.
The ferox Tanks as well as the Cyclone with ASB mods, has better buffer in hope to get a reload and does same damage with only 4 Low slots and doesn't require a Co-Processor to fit a XL ASB.

And if we speak missile boats the 140 DPS advantage of the drake is huge while keeping the same tank as the Cyclone.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#2457 - 2013-02-21 12:57:24 UTC
Except that the cyclone can choose it's damage type.

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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2458 - 2013-02-21 13:02:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
im very underwhelmed by the brutix ability to rep compared to the cyclone 450-1240 especially as the cyclone can kite all the bc's
Also you can setup a myrmidon to be just as effective as the brutix but with an extra mid so how is these two ships different?
Drake is still better than the ferox besides about 100m/s like that makes much difference and 60dps with void but the drake can apply its dps much earlier.
Harbinger seems too tight too fit what it needs... but the prophecy seems very nice battleship tank versatility in tanking and weapons.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Mund Richard
#2459 - 2013-02-21 13:04:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Denson022 wrote:
Anything that comes closer will make more DPS than the Cyclone or has more tank... wich is bad for the cyclone the Minmatar tanking BC.

So your problem is, that if the fastest BC goes too close (7.5km, why would a Cyclone be going so close), and shoots targets smaller than itself (no T2 missile), it is worse off than the ships that are worse at dictating range (no chance to catch up to those smaller targets in the first place), and have an increasing problem applying (usually non-selectable kind of) dps if range goes further (with which you cheated a bit, as you allowed the others to use T2 ammo), and without using the two turret hardpoints you have empty it falls short on dps?

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Denson022
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2460 - 2013-02-21 14:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Denson022
Mund Richard wrote:
Denson022 wrote:
Anything that comes closer will make more DPS than the Cyclone or has more tank... wich is bad for the cyclone the Minmatar tanking BC.

So your problem is, that if the fastest BC goes too close (7.5km, why would a Cyclone be going so close), and shoots targets smaller than itself (no T2 missile), it is worse off than the ships that are worse at dictating range (no chance to catch up to those smaller targets in the first place), and have an increasing problem applying (usually non-selectable kind of) dps if range goes further (with which you cheated a bit, as you allowed the others to use T2 ammo), and without using the two turret hardpoints you have empty it falls short on dps?


The reason behing my 7.5km range is that if you want to apply HAMS DPS on a Cruiser you need a web.
That means you also get in web range and a cruiser will close down ( thorax / Rupture) to you with its speed.

i didnt used the 2 hi slots beacause they are to me Utility slots for CAP warfare vs frigs and Cruisers
you can slap two 180 or even 220 AC and get some more DPS .. 590 rounded with 5 Hobgoblins.
But then you have no options to keep you Invulnerability field ON, since the passive bonus is gone it's a lifesaver.
IMO you fit a Med Neut/ Nos + smal Neut/Nos inthe remaining 2 hi slots.

The speed the Cyclone has is good if you get vs another BC and need to Disengage.
It helps mitigate applied DPS, vs AC and Blasters it works pretty well.
My point is that a Cane / Drake/ Harbinger will need less time to kill a 35K ehp cruiser, the Cyclone will kill it but it will require more time wich mean more DPS to tank over the time.

hope that clarifies my idea