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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2401 - 2013-02-19 09:26:59 UTC
Best close range damage with fastest speed is OP : no ship would be able to escape, and no ship able to kill it would be able to catch it.
Mund Richard
#2402 - 2013-02-19 10:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Also, 5% Rate of Fire bonus gives more dps than 5% damage does (33% I believe instead of 25%), and only the minnies get RoF bonus on BC level.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2403 - 2013-02-19 12:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Best close range damage with fastest speed is OP : no ship would be able to escape, and no ship able to kill it would be able to catch it.
Maybe in a hypothetical universe in which all fights are one-on-one, combat battlecruisers are the only ships, stasis webifiers don't exist, everyone's skills are the same, and fights last long enough for a brutix to kite a cyclone with a 10m/s advantage.

Mund Richard wrote:
Also, 5% Rate of Fire bonus gives more dps than 5% damage does (33% I believe instead of 25%), and only the minnies get RoF bonus on BC level.
I factored that in actually. In most cases a rate of fire bonus is about equivalent to a damage bonus because it increases the firing cost. But since medium projectile ammo is fairly small and autocannons fit a lot, rate of fire is pretty much a winner over damage in this case. Thus I factored in the full 33% * 5 for the cyclone vs. only the 50% * 6 for the brutix.

5 * 1.33 = 6.66 (cyclone)
6 * 1.25 * 1.33 = 10 (hurricane) <--no secondary skill bonus
6 * 1.5 = 9 (harbinger, drake, brutix)

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Mund Richard
#2404 - 2013-02-19 12:32:56 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I factored that in actually. In most cases a rate of fire bonus is about equivalent to a damage bonus because it increases the firing cost.
um...
If you are worried about ammo cost, maybe you shouldn't PvP.

You are right that the ships with 9 effective turrets are fairly close to the 10 of the double-bonused Cane, and the Drake even has a really potent and universal second bonus that does work, though the very same damage bonus that brings it close to the Cane limits it severely.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2405 - 2013-02-19 16:10:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Hey CCP Fozzie! For the first time your team made me angry! Read again this!:

Quote:
http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp

As a part of these changes, extra materials have been added to the build requirements of several Battlecruisers. These extra materials do not return when the ships are reprocessed.


This only means one thing! That you are fixing YOUR PROBLEMS and messing up the Industrial code of the game! You guys keep creating exceptions in the Code to prevent What!? That players rush to build ships before they get into to game? Or that players that have a big sum of ships get an increased ISK vallue for the ships in the stock?!
The point is that once the material cost rises the ship production cost will rise too, so industrials will increase the selling price of the ship, being them produced before or after the expansion! and who had produced before will get an increased proffit anyway. ( or will seel underpriced ships)
So you get an unsolved problem, that doesn't really need a solution. and just create annother one by trying to "fix it". you just trow it in to a area that don't have a Dev Team working in it, you are pushing garbage under the rug, forgetting that it will stink anyway.

There should be a tream trying to fix the industry! It is one of the most important part of the game! Most players that I know only started to play this game becouse it have an complex and player run industry.

So, please, step back. Keep the game code simple, and uniform in all areas. don't mess globally whylle trying to fix a local problem! the Returned percentage of a reprocess should stay the same! Noone in good mental health would reprocess a ship if he can get bigger profit by selling it.

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#2406 - 2013-02-19 16:47:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
You're completely missing the point. If they increase the reprocess value of the ships then people can just produce as many of these ships as they possibly can and be assured that, post-patch, they can be reprocessed into more minerals. People will still stockpile the rebalanced ships pre-patch and sell at a high profit margin post-patch, but at least in this way the impact is limited to a small subset of the market, and if too many are produced then the price will crash.

If rebalanced ships could be turned into a source of free minerals then the entire mineral market would be affected. Mineral values would plummet because the market would be saturated with free patch minerals. Worst case scenario with the way CCP is currently doing it is that battlecruisers sell for under production cost for awhile.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#2407 - 2013-02-19 17:36:45 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
You're completely missing the point. If they increase the reprocess value of the ships then people can just produce as many of these ships as they possibly can and be assured that, post-patch, they can be reprocessed into more minerals. People will still stockpile the rebalanced ships pre-patch and sell at a high profit margin post-patch, but at least in this way the impact is limited to a small subset of the market, and if too many are produced then the price will crash.

If rebalanced ships could be turned into a source of free minerals then the entire mineral market would be affected. Mineral values would plummet because the market would be saturated with free patch minerals. Worst case scenario with the way CCP is currently doing it is that battlecruisers sell for under production cost for awhile.

You forgot to add that it happened with all the other rebalanced ships from the retribution 1.0 release, as well as the mining barge rebalance back in inferno.

If you failed to pick up on that, then your not much of an industrialist.

Friends
DrJonF Rockit
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#2408 - 2013-02-19 21:19:48 UTC
I"m sorry, but I'm just here to remind/tell/inform you that the Drake is popular NOT BECAUSE it is a superior ship to any other ship.... but because it is a cool looking (at one point affordable) reliable craft. Drake is far from superior to any of the other ships on your list... period.
Mund Richard
#2409 - 2013-02-19 22:32:45 UTC
DrJonF Rockit wrote:
I"m sorry, but I'm just here to remind/tell/inform you that the Drake is popular NOT BECAUSE it is a superior ship to any other ship.... but because it is a cool looking (at one point affordable) reliable craft. Drake is far from superior to any of the other ships on your list... period.

Thought it's because it does adequate damage at fair ranges and tanks like a brick, allowing you to do both L4s and blob warfare.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2410 - 2013-02-19 22:56:53 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I factored that in actually. In most cases a rate of fire bonus is about equivalent to a damage bonus because it increases the firing cost.
um...
If you are worried about ammo cost, maybe you shouldn't PvP.
When I say firing cost, I'm talking about ammo space and capacitor drain, but I guess if you factor in the use of expensive ammo in long fights (which I don't do and so usually never think about) then you could add in actual price of the ammo with the firing cost.

Congratulations, in debunking my post, you supported an excuse to calculate the cyclone's power output even lower. I think I'll use 1.3 instead of 1.3333333
5 x 1.3 = 6.5

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Mund Richard
#2411 - 2013-02-20 00:01:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I factored that in actually. In most cases a rate of fire bonus is about equivalent to a damage bonus because it increases the firing cost.
um...
If you are worried about ammo cost, maybe you shouldn't PvP.
When I say firing cost, I'm talking about ammo space and capacitor drain, but I guess if you factor in the use of expensive ammo in long fights (which I don't do and so usually never think about) then you could add in actual price of the ammo with the firing cost.

Congratulations, in debunking my post, you supported an excuse to calculate the cyclone's power output even lower. I think I'll use 1.3 instead of 1.3333333
5 x 1.3 = 6.5

Cap cost is also usually something minmatars specifically don't worry about as much with guns. Roll
Ammo size and storage space...
(Leaving out lasers, cap is unquestionably bad with them without the bonus while a bonus is "wasted" with it, and ammo is irregular.)
Picking the highest caliber T2 medium sized turrets/launchers (heck, the only in the launcher's case)
Blasters and HAMs come in at a capacity of 1.0 and 0.99, HM at 1.2, 425 at 1.5 m3.
Leads to an ammo count of (in the same order) 80, 66, 40, 120.
With base rate of fire counted, reload is needed (in the same order) after 302.4 / 290.8 / 330.5 / 486 seconds.
Now ACs tend to get RoF bonuses more often and reload takes longer, but they still are the gun that can fire the longest in this weight class by a large margin (364 is still half to a full minute longer) making the reload time ignorable (except while you are doing it).
Ammo space... when 1-2 m3 is enough for 5 minutes or so per gun, unless you do a POS bash, I doubt it's the biggest concern.
For cap booster charges it's a really big concern (double-boosted Myrm), but that's a different part.

I do not disagree with how the Cyclone is a tad bit weird, plus the RoF makes it eat the ammo even faster (and it was the shortest to fire already with HAMs and the longest reload), plus guns overheated do more damage while launchers fire faster making the charges last even shorter.
I do agree that the Cyclone doesn't seem like it's the best of the group, but also don't forget the free 2 turret hardpoints it has after the 5 launchers.
Even if it's unbonused, and your BCUs won't affect them.
I hate it.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#2412 - 2013-02-20 00:04:52 UTC
Quote:
You forgot to add that it happened with all the other rebalanced ships from the retribution 1.0 release, as well as the mining barge rebalance back in inferno.


And the exact same problem exists with all of them. What's your point?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2413 - 2013-02-20 00:14:54 UTC
The extra materials trick is required to prevent what would be a pretty nasty exploit every time we update items. It's not being used without reason and we're not intending for every item to have it, just the items for which it is needed.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Malius Sparklighter
Hellstone Acquisitions
#2414 - 2013-02-20 00:15:45 UTC
I'll try to make this quick and specific and not sound like a complaint.

My main ship is a Harby and last night I spent about 10mil (which is a lot when you only have 200mil) refitting it for lvl 3 solo missions.

-Lost about 80+ DPS since the patch from my 250ish I had last night.
-Can't fit 2 reppers and a medium Nos at the same time with 6 guns due to no power grid now, and that's with nothing else in the lows and only cap charge arrays and an AB in the mids (no T2 gear at all).
-Lost at least 1k armor HP when the Harby was supposed to be the Amarr BC tank.
-Can't fit active resists anymore when I had 3 running with 2 reps last night.
-I haven't even checked my cap yet because I'm too upset that my "good ship" is now worth more as minerals.

Now there's no way I can solo the hard lvl 3's without a battleship and I'm on one now that I'll end up failing because I can't fly BS yet and they don't even allow BSs in the area (mission: "A Million Little Pieces").

I go to ask about it in Amarr local and the first response I get is, "The Harby is obsolete now, get a Proph." The price of the the Harby will plummet and it'll find a niche as a <100m/s bait ship or something. Why did I even train BC II when the tier I is better?

Well, those are my tears. Next time please give a noob some warning before she drops 10mil upgrading a mission ship and then can't even undock without being laughed at.
Mund Richard
#2415 - 2013-02-20 00:32:37 UTC
Malius Sparklighter wrote:
Why did I even train BC II when the tier I is better?
Not sure, so I'll ask.
Do you fly with a BC skill of II, or is your grief that the (formerly) tier 2 BC is now not as shiny as the (formerly) tier 1?
PG concerns... did you have an active tank rig on it, without training the rig skill to higher levels by any chance?

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Malius Sparklighter
Hellstone Acquisitions
#2416 - 2013-02-20 02:07:01 UTC
I didn't realize until after the post that it wasn't a I, II, or III BC thing anymore, it make a lot more sense now. I usually use 3 active resists and 2 armor reps, but now I can't fit hardly anything.

Doing rookie ship duels to blow off steam in Amarr if anyone wants to try the fun part of the patch in rookie ships Big smile
SkyMeetFire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2417 - 2013-02-20 02:25:03 UTC
Malius Sparklighter wrote:
I'll try to make this quick and specific and not sound like a complaint.

My main ship is a Harby and last night I spent about 10mil (which is a lot when you only have 200mil) refitting it for lvl 3 solo missions.

-Lost about 80+ DPS since the patch from my 250ish I had last night.
-Can't fit 2 reppers and a medium Nos at the same time with 6 guns due to no power grid now, and that's with nothing else in the lows and only cap charge arrays and an AB in the mids (no T2 gear at all).
-Lost at least 1k armor HP when the Harby was supposed to be the Amarr BC tank.
-Can't fit active resists anymore when I had 3 running with 2 reps last night.
-I haven't even checked my cap yet because I'm too upset that my "good ship" is now worth more as minerals.

Now there's no way I can solo the hard lvl 3's without a battleship and I'm on one now that I'll end up failing because I can't fly BS yet and they don't even allow BSs in the area (mission: "A Million Little Pieces").

I go to ask about it in Amarr local and the first response I get is, "The Harby is obsolete now, get a Proph." The price of the the Harby will plummet and it'll find a niche as a <100m/s bait ship or something. Why did I even train BC II when the tier I is better?

Well, those are my tears. Next time please give a noob some warning before she drops 10mil upgrading a mission ship and then can't even undock without being laughed at.


I'm seriously confused about everything you just said, but I'm going to take a stab at explaining this:

1. If you lost DPS, then you probably should raise your BC skill. The Harbs effective DPS at lvl 4 is exactly the same as prepatch, and is greater at lvl 5.
2. If you are no longer able to fit 2 reppers and a nos, it means most likely you have 3 active armor rigs on your ship, as that is the only thing that reduced the effective grid of the Harbinger. Look at raising your armor rigging skill. In addition to that, the Advanced weapon upgrades skill comes in handy.
3. You will lose some armor buffer. They reduced its base armor amount. Can't do anything about it. Tastes like chicken.
4. It lost no lowslots and the CPU is the same (and is effectively larger without the 7th turret), so why you can't fit active resists is beyond me.
5. Take a look at the cap. It got a tiny buff, and it has less drain on it from 6 turrets rather than 7, so it has less issues than before.
6. If you are asking in Amarr local, be ready to be trolled. Same goes for jita.
7. The proph is still probably a better bait ship.
8. You were given at least a month warning this change would happen. Fozzie posted this thread on January 8th, and then a major update on the 10th.

Now hopefully you understand I very much restricted the amount of snark I put into this and actually intend to be helping you. And if you are a troll, well done sir, 9/10.
Paul Maken
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2418 - 2013-02-20 03:01:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The extra materials trick is required to prevent what would be a pretty nasty exploit every time we update items. It's not being used without reason and we're not intending for every item to have it, just the items for which it is needed.


This is also something that CCP forgot to do when they turned defender missiles into light and heavy variants and making all the existing ones into the heavy defender missiles. Those reprocessed for much more than they had cost to make before the patch. Unfortunately, I wasn't on to notice this until about 16 hours after the patch and someone had already cleared all the trade hubs of them.

I still wonder how much ISK was made instantly by the first person who figured this out and cleaned up orders in Jita.
gotyaa
ANZ-ACS
#2419 - 2013-02-20 03:16:21 UTC
Shocked All the games one plays,if something is doing great ,just nerf it,if this was a real war and in space you think they would nerf a ship that is awsum ,Keep Nerfing Roll
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2420 - 2013-02-20 03:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Ok, so the patch is live and I've started playing around with the ships. I don't know if this is where further feedback will be monitored on BC's but here are some initial observations.

Drake: HAM fit is excellent. ~80-90k EHP depending on fit and ~700 dps at 17kms overheated w/ warriors! Plus med neut! That is superb. Plus with some logi, T1 or T2, simply a great fleet boat. Not as agile but sorry folks, it can't be everything.

Ferox: Impressive fleet blaster boat, far better than Brutix. High resists run it around ~75-80k EHP w/ ~600 DPS with faction antimatter/ flight of warriors, able to use full rack of neutrons. The range projection (which is key) with null puts it 9.4+8.8 which is fantastic range projection for med blasters. Oh also a Med Neut! Even cooler run one Large ASB and a Large Extender and you get ~500-600 burst tank and still have 60K ehp to play with while reloading! So good for small gang or fleet w/ logi. And everything fits easily.

Prophecy: This will sadly have to replace my Mrym as my Drone BC of choice. This thing is a beast. You can fit it so many ways it is going to give anyone pause before messing with it in small gang work. Potentially a great drone fleet boat, rare as that beast might be. With armor logi even more scary. Easy to get ~ 130K buffer ehp out of it and still sport 2, yes 2, Drone Damage Amps. While it might not produce as much top end dps as the Mrym, it easily outperforms an armor Mrym (buffer or rep) for drone damage against frigs and cruisers, because the bonused light drones and medium drones benefit from the 2 DDA's. This means against many engagements it will far out dps the armor tanked Mrym. And its drone bay is so vast that you can have all kinds of options out there. Kill my drones, no problem, it has more! You must shield tank the Mrym to compete DPS wise against this ship engagements where 5 light and/or 5 med drones are called for. (But shield Mrym has meager tank.)
Here is the best part, it triple reps 926 with a MAAR (unheated, no fleet bonus or drugs) while still sporting 4 Dual 180 autocannon II's AND a Medium Neut. Everything running to including MWD near stable (21minutes) while cap boosters last. That completely outclasses the triple rep Mrym. Amazing cap on this thing. Only draw back is that then the prophecy only does around 448dps compared to the Mrym's 547dps when both trip repped. (but with the larger drone bay, vastly better cap performance, and a constantly running med neut, that tips it heavily in Amarr's favor.)

Mrym: Well, the above pretty much covers everything that the Mrym is not. Triple reps only 852 with the MAAR, (unbonused, no drugs, no heat) with ~547 dps with 5 180mm Autocannons. Sadly, no medium neut. Capacitor significantly lower performance than Prophecy. Explosive hole still exists. An ASB Shield Mrym with an XLASB and a LASB nearly outperforms a triple rep armor tank though has vastly higher DPS (~835) despite the many fitting mods needed to make it work. Shield tanking or armor buffer will still be preferred fittings for this boat. There might be some fleet applications with 4 sentries but, meh. DPS application, when armor tanked, will be less against frig/cruisers since it doesn't have the lows for DDA's that the prophecy has, nor the drone bay. Is this really working as intended?

- For example a double 1600 plated Mrym (just for the sake of comparison ok?) comes in at ~108 EHP and a full flight of Warriors, to kill that pesky frig, at ~120 drone dps. A very viable 1600 double plated Prophecy (130 EHP) puts out ~172 dps from those same warriors (2 DDA's.) The one extra high slot gun does not make up the difference, sorry frig's out of gun range! And the Proph can run a med neut no problem to boot. Thus the Gallente model of greater drone dps vice Amarr starts to fall apart no? Same story for Med drones, which hit better against cruisers and arguably many BC's due to travel time of heavies.

- The MAAR,? marginal improvement, but overall, not very good. Still needing to have all the cap boosters really just makes it too unattractive vice ASB's. If I want to active rep, can't see many reasons to choose armor still over shield. And certainly not in the two Gal boats, sadly as that is nearly all I fly.

Brutix: Ok, not sure what the ideal fit is here because other than shield tanking it (which is good, but might as well fly a Ferox then) this thing is really short on power grid. Shield fit it does have ~50K EHP and a nice ~800's DPS so all gank small tank. Wasting a hull bonus.
- Armor buffer: With a 1600 plate its slow but can scram/double web and deliver a nice ~700's DPS with Hammerheads/67K EHP. But of course, that's assuming it ever catches a target and can get to ZERO since you have to use ELECTRONS because nothing else fits.Ugh Ok, put on a 800 plate (really?) lose 10,000 ehp and still only fit IONs, and only get about 50-60m/s faster with perfect honeycomb skills. Waste a hull bonus. Fly a Vexor then, same performance, smaller sig.
-Armor Rep: So it's bonused for this right? Hard to tell. Double rep (one stupid MAAR) and its around ~673 tank. (I couldn't find a triple rep set up I liked as it needed a +3% power grid implant and left a highslot unfilled.) So with double rep it can only fit Electrons and needs two mids (cap boosters) to keep the boat running, especially since you will run up against neuts. This leaves it with no web. GOOD Luck getting this boat into range (to ZERO) to apply DPS. ELECTRONS? Really? This boat sucks.

Before I was ok with the thought of just giving one Gal boat the dreaded armor repair bonus, now I frankly despise it for both.

I haven't bothered with any other ships.