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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2321 - 2013-02-14 13:44:38 UTC
10% per lever armor rep amount for Myrm, 10% per level MWD sig bloom reduction for Brutix. Or 5% per level armor HP. Or tracking, anything but rep bonus for Brutix.

Again, Myrm is the active tanker solo and PVE ship, Brutix is the Gallente candidate for fleets and needs a hull bonus that supports that aim.

.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2322 - 2013-02-14 14:33:05 UTC
@ CCP Fozzie any plans on changing the drake or myrmidon?

I think it would be sad to release them as they are the drake just overshadows the ferox into being obsolete and the myrmidon will suffer a lack of versatility being stuck with the rep bonus it doesn't really need much as the drake doesn't need its resist bonus as it has such superior range to the other bc's since HAMS are effectively battleship range weapons literally same range as torpedoes.

I think the drake would benefit from being more mobile much as the caracal gained a useful role. although i don't think a velocity bonus would be a good idea on the drake infact i don't think it really needs a second bonus at all just improve its mobility in exchange and then switch its shield hp with the ferox.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#2323 - 2013-02-14 15:01:07 UTC
Geeze, from all the complaining I'm hearing about the Brutix, you'd almost think that it only got one bonus. Yeah, so what's the Amarr fleet BC? Prophecy? f you don't mind a fleet full of 3 sentry ships *or* low DPS ships that have much delayed damage projection. Or perhaps the Harbinger? Yeah, it only has a damage bonus. Because that's a ship that only gets one bonus. One bonus and a modifier so we can actually fire our guns. And they still take more cap than your blasters. Wow, the Harbinger gets one bonus that is always useful! The Brutix at least gets a bonus that is always useful and a circumstantially useful bonus.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2324 - 2013-02-14 15:26:19 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Geeze, from all the complaining I'm hearing about the Brutix, you'd almost think that it only got one bonus. Yeah, so what's the Amarr fleet BC? Prophecy? f you don't mind a fleet full of 3 sentry ships *or* low DPS ships that have much delayed damage projection. Or perhaps the Harbinger? Yeah, it only has a damage bonus. Because that's a ship that only gets one bonus. One bonus and a modifier so we can actually fire our guns. And they still take more cap than your blasters. Wow, the Harbinger gets one bonus that is always useful! The Brutix at least gets a bonus that is always useful and a circumstantially useful bonus.


mmm.. i think the brutix has the potential to excel in small gang warfare much like the cyclone will.
it depends largely on the AAR/rigs and being able fit them and links after they get changed.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#2325 - 2013-02-14 16:31:40 UTC
Roime wrote:
10% per lever armor rep amount for Myrm, 10% per level MWD sig bloom reduction for Brutix. Or 5% per level armor HP. Or tracking, anything but rep bonus for Brutix.

Again, Myrm is the active tanker solo and PVE ship, Brutix is the Gallente candidate for fleets and needs a hull bonus that supports that aim.


Brutix candidate for fleets? Where id you get that idea? Why are so many people against the rep bonus? This ship now imho has everything it needs. Even though I would not mind 10% repping bonus on all active armor tanking ships. Just to be better than 5% resist in that particular activity.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#2326 - 2013-02-14 16:43:55 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
@ CCP Fozzie any plans on changing the drake or myrmidon?

I think it would be sad to release them as they are the drake just overshadows the ferox into being obsolete and the myrmidon will suffer a lack of versatility being stuck with the rep bonus it doesn't really need much as the drake doesn't need its resist bonus as it has such superior range to the other bc's since HAMS are effectively battleship range weapons literally same range as torpedoes.

I think the drake would benefit from being more mobile much as the caracal gained a useful role. although i don't think a velocity bonus would be a good idea on the drake infact i don't think it really needs a second bonus at all just improve its mobility in exchange and then switch its shield hp with the ferox.


Why so many people think rep bonus is useless? It is great bonus for small gangs.

Caracal is attack cruiser (less tank, more mobility, more dps). Drake and myrmidon are combat balltecruisers (more tank, less mobility, slightly less dps). Diving drake more mobility would move it to the position of attack battlecruiser.
Vaximillian
Denizens of R'lyeh
#2327 - 2013-02-14 21:02:14 UTC
Ah BALANCE. The word that always comes into play when people who want to be able to do everything with any toon. The concept that, once agreed to and followed by the developers, means the coming end of the MMO.

In EVE you can TRAIN into anything. You aren't stuck into a certain class that you started that you later got bored of. Why the hell seek balance? If you don't think your X race X class ship is the best then crosstrain! I'm minmatar but waaaaahhhh we don't have a ship that neuts as well as the curse! Waaaaahhhh. make one of our ships be able to neut that well so we can have BALANCE!! Know what I did? I took the time to crosstrain into the curse.

Each time someone whines about balance CCP just give them a 30 day ban and tell them to crosstrain or stfu. Each race has it's advantages. Please don't make this game generic and "balanced".
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#2328 - 2013-02-14 21:23:43 UTC
Exelent changes with the the BC.

Good work CCP.

The Tears Must Flow
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2329 - 2013-02-14 22:44:08 UTC
Shpenat wrote:

Why so many people think rep bonus is useless? It is great bonus for small gangs.
The bonus is cool. It's just that we (Gallente ship users) want one of these two BCs to have bonuses aimed towards something larger than small gangs.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2330 - 2013-02-15 08:12:24 UTC
Shpenat wrote:
Roime wrote:
10% per lever armor rep amount for Myrm, 10% per level MWD sig bloom reduction for Brutix. Or 5% per level armor HP. Or tracking, anything but rep bonus for Brutix.

Again, Myrm is the active tanker solo and PVE ship, Brutix is the Gallente candidate for fleets and needs a hull bonus that supports that aim.


Brutix candidate for fleets? Where id you get that idea? Why are so many people against the rep bonus? This ship now imho has everything it needs. Even though I would not mind 10% repping bonus on all active armor tanking ships. Just to be better than 5% resist in that particular activity.



Brutix is our only hope, I'm not saying it is currently the best fleet BC. Myrmidon with it's drone bonus and bay size struggles in large fleets unless CCP fixes sentry scoop range. Brutix with a better tank bonus could use medium rails. Yeah, I said it :)

Why against a useless rep bonus? Because active armor tanking is simply weaker than ASB or even shield buffer until you go triple rep, which sucks on the Brutix.It needs cap and webs for the guns. Like you said, 5% resist bonus tanks just as well with local reps but is usable in fleets.



.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2331 - 2013-02-15 11:20:40 UTC
What's needed romie is a nerf to the extremely overpowered resistance bonus from 5% per level down to 4% per level in addition to modest improvements in the rep amount and cap efficiency of all armor reppers. The increase I'd like to see played with to the reppers is a rather small 5-7.5% increase in rep per cycle however also have a cap reduction of about 10%. This combined with an overhaul to the dead space armor reppers which would focus on buffing reppers to a point where the difference in progression between deadspace shield and armor is at least not insulting would imo fix the vast majority of issues discussed in this thread in regards to resistance vs active tanking bonus.
Beauregard DuCorte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2332 - 2013-02-15 12:15:13 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Beauregard DuCorte wrote:
Eccamouze wrote:
Jumping into the thread as the randomnoob I am. =)

Will this make the Prophecy, most beautiful ship btw, viable for level 3's and 4's? Because so far I've only heard bad stuff about it(pre-patch), and this makes me a sad noobpilot. :(


Yes, I currently use the Myrm for Lvl 3s and some Lvl 4s (where afterburn between acceleration gates is needed). Everything that the Myrm currently does well in PvE the Prophesy will do better after the "balance" I can see doing most 3s and 4s with this, and it has a better base speed and smaller signature on top of the better bonuses and more low slots.

Only thing the Myrm will do better, is sniping with sentries.
1 more out, 1 more midslot for omnilinks, in case a 3 slot tank is enough (due to rats starting far away and being few in number).
Yonis Kador wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
...at first I hated the idea of Prophecy becoming a drone boat ... But after looking at the new slot layout, I see that's gonna make it a very good exploration vessel, vay better than Vexor...
Nothing warms. my. heart. more than reading how excited Gallente pilots are about their new Amarr drone Prophecies.

For me that was the case with the new destroyers as well, an "odd" bandwidth of 35 doesn't make me as interested as a "proper" 25 + more bay, mixed hardpoints and the neut bonus.
Although, there the gun was bonused for the Gallente, making it a tougher call.


For sniping with sentries you're better off just training a little more and flying a Dominix (Battleship), where you can have a full flight out. Dual reps for PvE will be overwhelmed by the ability to fit mission/rat specific modules for a 95%+ resist.
Mund Richard
#2333 - 2013-02-15 12:28:15 UTC
Beauregard DuCorte wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Beauregard DuCorte wrote:
Yes, I currently use the Myrm for Lvl 3s and some Lvl 4s (where afterburn between acceleration gates is needed). Everything that the Myrm currently does well in PvE the Prophesy will do better after the "balance" I can see doing most 3s and 4s with this, and it has a better base speed and smaller signature on top of the better bonuses and more low slots.
Only thing the Myrm will do better, is sniping with sentries.
1 more out, 1 more midslot for omnilinks, in case a 3 slot tank is enough (due to rats starting far away and being few in number).
For sniping with sentries you're better off just training a little more and flying a Dominix (Battleship), where you can have a full flight out. Dual reps for PvE will be overwhelmed by the ability to fit mission/rat specific modules for a 95%+ resist.

A valid argument for any L3 that lets battleships in, though slightly sideways from a BC discussion.
You could have said Ishtar just as well (and that would fill the afterburn between gates niche Beauregard mentioned even better, being lighter).

Bit unsure on your 95%+ resist on a T1 hull, usually mines are 84.7% against serpentis with one rep and two DDA and 2+2 hardeners.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#2334 - 2013-02-15 14:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tennessee Jack
People are still stuck on the concept of what is best.

If the Brutix got a 5% to resistances per level, everybody would flock to it as it has "Buffer".

Since it does not, people are saying it is terrible in large fleet warfare.

The Gallente Ships (some would also say the Minmatar ships), are fairly self reliant. They are meant to try to keep themselves alive. SIde by side, would they survive an alpha attack, generally no. Will they fold like wet paper if attacked, generally no but other ships would survive longer than the 2 Gallente Battlecruisers. It is an odd dynamic, we will see how it plays out.

Regarding the Myrmidon. Have you ever thought that the issue is not the 100m3 or the 125m3 dronebay debate, but the fact that sentry drones are 25m3 themselves? They should have been 20m3. The sentry drone has virtually no propulsion system on them, there is really no need for them to be 25m3, when 20 would do. If sentries are 20 bandwidth per, the Myrmidon would be the only battlecruiser that can field 5 sentry drones, but still be restricted to fielding 4 Heavy Drones. The sentry change would affect very few other ships (off of my recollection, virtually no ship under a BS hold would be affected, except the Myrmidon.

The drone lineup should have looked like this.

1) Small Drones, 5m3
2) Medium Drones, 10m3
3) Sentry Drones, 20m3
4) Large Drones, 25m3

What that does is allow more ships to field sentry drones if they so choose, and also give the myrmidon access to an additional role, as a optional drone sniping platform.

Ship current/future hold's addressed regarding Sentry Drones

50m3 bandwidth holds, can hold 2 sentry drones presently, and with the change, will still only be able to hold/use 2 sentries.
75m3 bandwidth holds, they can hold 3 sentry drones presently, and with the change, will still only be able to hold/use 3 sentry drones.

100m3 and above could use 5 drones, the only ships I know of that are smaller than a battleship, can already use a max flight of sentry drones. Virtually, the only ship that changes in regards to utilizing sentries, would be the Myrmidon, giving it a viable entry into the role.

So Consider Reducing the Bandwidth of Sentry drones from 25 to 20. Is it a dps Increase for the Myrmidon.. yes. Does it turn it into one giant stationary target.. yep. Does it give the ship even more options, and make the 100m3 bandwidth seem more.. well interesting...
Screenlag
Armaggedon Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
#2335 - 2013-02-15 16:52:07 UTC
The ferox is still useless. But I don't know how to change it without making it a brutix. The range bonus is redundant no matter how you look at it though.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2336 - 2013-02-15 17:03:16 UTC
Screenlag wrote:
The ferox is still useless. But I don't know how to change it without making it a brutix. The range bonus is redundant no matter how you look at it though.


Although the optimal range bonus does limit its slot layout its not that bad actually considering the range of blasters in general the problem though is that the drake is basically a better version of the ferox with better range and tank

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

deepos
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2337 - 2013-02-15 18:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: deepos
.
Screenlag
Armaggedon Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
#2338 - 2013-02-15 18:43:03 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Screenlag wrote:
The ferox is still useless. But I don't know how to change it without making it a brutix. The range bonus is redundant no matter how you look at it though.


Although the optimal range bonus does limit its slot layout its not that bad actually considering the range of blasters in general the problem though is that the drake is basically a better version of the ferox with better range and tank


They fixed the moa by changing its range bonus and now people fly it for once in forever. You can probably shield tank the brutix quite good, so what's the point with flying a ferox?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2339 - 2013-02-15 18:52:19 UTC
Screenlag wrote:
They fixed the moa by changing its range bonus and now people fly it for once in forever. You can probably shield tank the brutix quite good, so what's the point with flying a ferox?

It's a better shield tanker than the Brutix, that's why.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2340 - 2013-02-15 18:52:56 UTC
Screenlag wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
Screenlag wrote:
The ferox is still useless. But I don't know how to change it without making it a brutix. The range bonus is redundant no matter how you look at it though.


Although the optimal range bonus does limit its slot layout its not that bad actually considering the range of blasters in general the problem though is that the drake is basically a better version of the ferox with better range and tank


They fixed the moa by changing its range bonus and now people fly it for once in forever. You can probably shield tank the brutix quite good, so what's the point with flying a ferox?



Well they have nerfed the shield HP on the brutix so there would be a gulf in shield HP difference when fitted

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high