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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Lili Lu
#2301 - 2013-02-13 17:50:20 UTC
Aglais wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Freighdee Katt wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The Drake in particular is not a ship I am particularly concerned will be too weak with these stats. I fully expect it to remain the most popular BC by a large margin and if anything it is probably a little too powerful with this version.

I hope you realize that you're bragging about how the rebalancing was a complete failure.

Mission Accomplished.


I'm saying we leaned on the side of caution and are taking advantage of our ability to iterate to ensure that we don't overnerf.

Of course you can read into that whatever nefarious motives you want. Lol


Too late for that IMO. I suppose that in the case of BCs vs. Cruisers this'll not really be a horrible thing, but in the BC vs. BC group I'm really unhappy about how the Caldari ones in general were handled. IMO the Ferox is underwhelming in every way but tank (making it Drake II), and the Drake is... Well it's pretty much the same as before but even worse with non-kinetic missiles.

Will people actually use the Ferox ever over a Brutix or Myrmidon? For any reason?

Aglais,what are you complaining about? Lol The Ferox has a shield resist bonus. Will trade you the crappy armor rep bonus and new pre-nerfed armor repper for that any day. Ferox will find a place in many gangs, especially if it has some shield logi. Meanwhile the Myrm and Brutix will get to fly around with one bonus, because no ****** will be fitting a ****** new armor rep in any fight ivolving more than 3 or 4 ships. Yipee. Fear the hobbled Myrm and Brutix.

Fozzie, you should throw caution to the wind with the Drake. Nerf it into the stone age tbh. It had too long a run as the most used pvp and pve ship in the game. Ok well not the stone age. But ffs don't worry about the damn thing. It had a good run. And I'm still waiting to hear if anything will be done about the out of balance BC regen stat. Stop the madness of cheap regen drakes tanking top of the line pve content. It's so incredibly stupid that this has been going on in the game for so long.
Snape Dieboldmotor
Minotaur Congress
#2302 - 2013-02-13 17:54:33 UTC
Aglais wrote:
IMO the Ferox is underwhelming in every way but tank (making it Drake II), and the Drake is...

Will people actually use the Ferox ever over a Brutix or Myrmidon? For any reason?


Aglais, the shield resistance bonuses of the Drake and Ferox are considered one of the best bonuses. To compensate for getting such a good bonus the other balance attributes won't be as good.

I can see a number of situations where the Ferox would be better than the Myrmidon and Brutix. Think about it for a little bit and you will see it too. Idea

Snape
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#2303 - 2013-02-13 18:25:16 UTC
Aglais wrote:


Will people actually use the Ferox ever over a Brutix or Myrmidon? For any reason?


Every time it needs a larger fleet. Or remote reps in small gang. Or using ASBs. Or pretty much most of the time except for the rare 1v1 situation that the gallente ships can actually hope to win.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2304 - 2013-02-13 18:48:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Lili Lu wrote:
Fozzie, you should throw caution to the wind with the Drake.

There's no need to be so dramatic as all that. Drop the shield resist and the ******** kinetic damage buff, and give it the same ROF + Velocity treatment as the Caracal. Problem solved. People who could fly nothing but the Drake would whine, but the truth is that then it would become a ship that is very good at one thing, instead of being pretty good at everything. And that was the whole point of this years long epic balancing campaign (or so they said anyway).

Take a similar common sensical approach with all the BCs, giving them some actual distinct roles, and role bonuses that make sense for those roles, rather than just making them into the same piles of fail with different skins, and this whole thread would have been nothing but love.

It's a simple principle that when something works well, you do that thing again for good results. They got it right when they did all the little ship balancing. But they failed to learn from that success.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2305 - 2013-02-13 18:57:29 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I like the idea of a drake with 8 highs, how about a rof penalty like the old destroyers used to have. The ship is clearly modelled to have 8 launchers at least a rof penalty would prevent it from being op and justify the extra slots.

I'd also settle for actual external models of systems such as Nos/Neuts.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#2306 - 2013-02-13 19:28:50 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Fozzie, you should throw caution to the wind with the Drake.

There's no need to be so dramatic as all that. Drop the shield resist and the ******** kinetic damage buff, and give it the same ROF + Velocity treatment as the Caracal. Problem solved.


Same bonuses, same weapon systems, same tanking style. Honestly, what's the point?
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#2307 - 2013-02-13 19:35:16 UTC
Snape Dieboldmotor wrote:


Aglais, the shield resistance bonuses of the Drake and Ferox are considered one of the best bonuses. To compensate for getting such a good bonus the other balance attributes won't be as good.

I can see a number of situations where the Ferox would be better than the Myrmidon and Brutix. Think about it for a little bit and you will see it too. Idea

Snape


Ok. So will a rail ferox actually be viable in any kind of fleet, or are we going to be tacking blasters onto this most Caldari and slow of vessels? I should be more specific, this is my gripe with the ferox, not the tank.

Also, active hardeners are no longer contributing passive resistance when inactive (see this thread). That's going to impact things.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#2308 - 2013-02-13 20:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Aglais wrote:
Snape Dieboldmotor wrote:


Aglais, the shield resistance bonuses of the Drake and Ferox are considered one of the best bonuses. To compensate for getting such a good bonus the other balance attributes won't be as good.

I can see a number of situations where the Ferox would be better than the Myrmidon and Brutix. Think about it for a little bit and you will see it too. Idea

Snape


Ok. So will a rail ferox actually be viable in any kind of fleet, or are we going to be tacking blasters onto this most Caldari and slow of vessels? I should be more specific, this is my gripe with the ferox, not the tank.

Also, active hardeners are no longer contributing passive resistance when inactive (see this thread). That's going to impact things.

Wait. Are you still complaining about the Ferox's resist bonus as against both Gallente BCs' armor rep bonus? You can't make use of that ridiculously large optimal bonus? Sure, then fly the Brutix and Myrm over it. I'll probably try to fit some half assed buffer on them, and I'll probably get told to find another ship to fit in the fleet, or I'll just fly Minmatar.

I really don't see a reason to fly a Brutix or Myrm. Maybe something will be done with sentry drones at some point to make a Myrm desirable for a fleet action. But otherwies both the Gallente ships are relegated to chasers of the fabled unicorn of honorable 1v1 BC duals.Roll

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Eccamouze
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#2309 - 2013-02-13 23:12:15 UTC
Jumping into the thread as the randomnoob I am. =)

Will this make the Prophecy, most beautiful ship btw, viable for level 3's and 4's? Because so far I've only heard bad stuff about it(pre-patch), and this makes me a sad noobpilot. :(
Mund Richard
#2310 - 2013-02-13 23:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Eccamouze wrote:
Jumping into the thread as the randomnoob I am. =)

Will this make the Prophecy, most beautiful ship btw, viable for level 3's and 4's? Because so far I've only heard bad stuff about it(pre-patch), and this makes me a sad noobpilot. :(
Here is my (possibly biased) opinion:

L3: Yes, and quite interesting too possibly, due to the leeway you have with high and lowslots.
(Would go for multiple DDA and 4 of either HAML or RLML if the mission allows)

L4: Personally I wouldn't experiment with it...
...But now I might, just because of the challenge.
Don't expect to reach a Drake level tank too easily (if at all before faction mods), and the gank will involve either an odd mix of drones that the AI will love to target, or sentries (possibly without omni-links), so again not the Drake level easy-mode.
Better off in a battleship most likely, specially for the harder missions.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2311 - 2013-02-14 05:07:38 UTC
Is there a reason why the Cane is the only Combat BC being left with 16 Ladar? ( or respective racial)

Everything including the Cyclone is set at 17 - I hope this a typo
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#2312 - 2013-02-14 05:50:52 UTC
So I left this topic alone for a few days and came back in time to see that after 116 pages of feedback:

CCP Fozzie wrote:

[CCP] will go forward with the specs in the OP...


Great?

Seleucus Ontuas wrote:

Time to stock up on Prophecies and Feroxes, no reason to use the Brutix and Myrm.


Luscius Uta wrote:

...at first I hated the idea of Prophecy becoming a drone boat ... But after looking at the new slot layout, I see that's gonna make it a very good exploration vessel, vay better than Vexor...


Nothing warms. my. heart. more than reading how excited Gallente pilots are about their new Amarr drone Prophecies.

But since this is a done deal, the time for feedback has passed.

Eccamouze wrote:

Will this make the Prophecy, most beautiful ship btw, viable for level 3's and 4's? Because so far I've only heard bad stuff about it(pre-patch), and this makes me a sad noobpilot. :(


Well Eccamouze, the Prophecy's usefulness in missions shouldn't change much. You can do lvl 3s in just about any BC. CCP is only altering dps delivery so as a new pilot, you'll adapt easily. It'll do what it did before, just differently. And whereas I, may never get over what they did here...

I do agree with you that the Prophecy hull is one of the most beautiful in the game.

Good luck in your adventures!

YK
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2313 - 2013-02-14 08:59:25 UTC
Aglais wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Freighdee Katt wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The Drake in particular is not a ship I am particularly concerned will be too weak with these stats. I fully expect it to remain the most popular BC by a large margin and if anything it is probably a little too powerful with this version.

I hope you realize that you're bragging about how the rebalancing was a complete failure.

Mission Accomplished.


I'm saying we leaned on the side of caution and are taking advantage of our ability to iterate to ensure that we don't overnerf.

Of course you can read into that whatever nefarious motives you want. Lol


Too late for that IMO. I suppose that in the case of BCs vs. Cruisers this'll not really be a horrible thing, but in the BC vs. BC group I'm really unhappy about how the Caldari ones in general were handled. IMO the Ferox is underwhelming in every way but tank (making it Drake II), and the Drake is... Well it's pretty much the same as before but even worse with non-kinetic missiles.

Will people actually use the Ferox ever over a Brutix or Myrmidon? For any reason?



Well i'm just spitballing here but i do believe a ferox might be better for shield fleets... And fleets in general since it has better range and good tank..


All in all the ferox is good, its not spectacular, but good. Now if only medium rails were as awesome as small rails.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2314 - 2013-02-14 09:46:54 UTC
@Fozzie

So I guess now that you've laid down your epeen and said Gallente BCs are stuck being crap for anything other than 1v1 or 1v2s, the important question on everyone's mind is is:

How long do we have to wait before you'll admit you were being stubborn and the two Gallente hulls will be looked at again?
And when you come out and publicly apologize for this failure (we forgive you now because you work for CCP, it's kinda their thing), inb4 everyone else, "I told you so"

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Beauregard DuCorte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2315 - 2013-02-14 10:00:46 UTC
Eccamouze wrote:
Jumping into the thread as the randomnoob I am. =)

Will this make the Prophecy, most beautiful ship btw, viable for level 3's and 4's? Because so far I've only heard bad stuff about it(pre-patch), and this makes me a sad noobpilot. :(


Yes, I currently use the Myrm for Lvl 3s and some Lvl 4s (where afterburn between acceleration gates is needed). Everything that the Myrm currently does well in PvE the Prophesy will do better after the "balance" I can see doing most 3s and 4s with this, and it has a better base speed and smaller signature on top of the better bonuses and more low slots.
Mund Richard
#2316 - 2013-02-14 10:45:51 UTC
Beauregard DuCorte wrote:
Eccamouze wrote:
Jumping into the thread as the randomnoob I am. =)

Will this make the Prophecy, most beautiful ship btw, viable for level 3's and 4's? Because so far I've only heard bad stuff about it(pre-patch), and this makes me a sad noobpilot. :(


Yes, I currently use the Myrm for Lvl 3s and some Lvl 4s (where afterburn between acceleration gates is needed). Everything that the Myrm currently does well in PvE the Prophesy will do better after the "balance" I can see doing most 3s and 4s with this, and it has a better base speed and smaller signature on top of the better bonuses and more low slots.

Only thing the Myrm will do better, is sniping with sentries.
1 more out, 1 more midslot for omnilinks, in case a 3 slot tank is enough (due to rats starting far away and being few in number).
Yonis Kador wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
...at first I hated the idea of Prophecy becoming a drone boat ... But after looking at the new slot layout, I see that's gonna make it a very good exploration vessel, vay better than Vexor...
Nothing warms. my. heart. more than reading how excited Gallente pilots are about their new Amarr drone Prophecies.

For me that was the case with the new destroyers as well, an "odd" bandwidth of 35 doesn't make me as interested as a "proper" 25 + more bay, mixed hardpoints and the neut bonus.
Although, there the gun was bonused for the Gallente, making it a tougher call.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
IrJosy
Club 1621
#2317 - 2013-02-14 12:21:16 UTC
Do both gallente ships still have that ****** rep bonus?

Drop the myrm rep bonus for a turret bonus like ALL the other drone ships. TIA
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#2318 - 2013-02-14 12:32:57 UTC
IrJosy wrote:
Do both gallente ships still have that ****** rep bonus?

Drop the myrm rep bonus for a turret bonus like ALL the other drone ships. TIA


Drone tracking or MWD would be more original imo. While a turret damage bonus would coincide with other drone ships such as the domi and the vexor it's still not a real reason to make the myrmidon essentially the same...
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#2319 - 2013-02-14 13:14:56 UTC
The repper bonus should be dropped on both gallente ships. If someone wants to use active armor repping and even the new weaksauce repper then have at it with any ship. The bonus in conjunction with the new repper hardly redeems this tanking style for anything other that it was already used (which is a very limited subset of eve fighting).

The Myrm should get another drone bonus. Maybe drone speed or tracking. If it were to get a hybrid damage bonus it might become too ganky (much like the former 125m3 bandwidth Myrm was seen by CCP). And unless/until sentry mechanics are changed to move them with the ship in some manner the only drones really worth using in pvp will be either heavys in very close range or mediums/lights for long range. Basically a tracking bonus would probably be better for sentry pve, while a drone speed bonus would be better for medium/light drone pvp to get on target faster (as long as it doesn't increase the transition to orbit delay on applying damage).Straight Regardless I do not see fleet types and fcs favoring people bringing this ship and it will continue to see less use than other BCs.

The Brutix needs a fleet viable bonus. An armor hp bonus, either percentage based or whole number based, would be a much better bonus for this ship. It would make blaster fits better. It would also allow for rail fits. Either way it would synch well with logi support like the resist bonused ships do/will (Ferox, Drake, Prophecy). Nothing wrong with taking advantage of something that CCP wants anyway, group play, as opposed to being stuck in the suck of solo local repping with ****** medium armor reppers.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#2320 - 2013-02-14 13:17:07 UTC
Eccamouze wrote:
Jumping into the thread as the randomnoob I am. =)

Will this make the Prophecy, most beautiful ship btw, viable for level 3's and 4's? Because so far I've only heard bad stuff about it(pre-patch), and this makes me a sad noobpilot. :(



If you like that, feast your eyes upon the Damnation. That ship is pure sexy. Sometimes I put a cloak on it just because. I gimp it's damage with only 4 launchers placed so that they show up on the wings, mostly because I fly with a buddy and use all 3 armor links. I tank it with just a Damage Control and a Reactive Hardener, because it's base resists are already so good and after I get shot a few times I never see a resist below 80, and often they are 90+. That HP bonus means it has armor almost as thick as a battleship even without a plate. If you have a Logi buddy, plates are just trolling the enemy.

I can do level 3's in it just by showing up. Rats self destruct in despair at the sheer awesomeness of it's tank. I am fully competent in Level 4's, though I would not do them solo in this. Medium Armor repper just does not keep up, though I can hang out for a good long time as I'm usually at a net loss in armor of 1% per cycle. Even if I go with 5 launchers and a couple of guns, it's damage isn't high enough to kill all that needs killing fast enough to reduce DPS to manageable levels in some missions. It does look extremely sweet launching a full rack of missles and fireing off a pair of lasers though.

Bottom Line, for level 4's and for about the same price (and way less training), you are probably better off in a battleship if solo. However, nothing beats the Damnation for pure sexy, and if you have logi support there are battleships that wish they had it's tank.