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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Callie Cross
Tax Code
#681 - 2013-02-13 00:11:38 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Callie Cross wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Except the whole part where he used a web-assisted program that allowed him to perform actions faster than they can actually be performed. Kelduum knew about this, no matter how you try to spin it, the evidence is in his initial post.



There's a web program that lets you do things faster than they can be done? Sign me up.


It's explained in the E-UNI OP. You should try reading it, it's not hard.



That went right over your head I see... oh well.
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#682 - 2013-02-13 00:12:41 UTC
Della Monk wrote:
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
being told it was removed because it was illegally obtained is insufficient


No it isn't. That should be the beginning and end of it.


Clearly, I (and Kelduum) completely disagree. But that seems to be an intractable argument at this point.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#683 - 2013-02-13 00:13:17 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Except the whole part where he used a web-assisted program that allowed him to perform actions faster than they can actually be performed. Kelduum knew about this, no matter how you try to spin it, the evidence is in his initial post.

Sometimes I go to eve-central to see what the prices of an item are in regions other than the one my character is in. This allows me to obtain that information faster than I could without that website's help. Apparently I'm a botter.

If using programs, web-based or otherwise, to assist you in doing things in EVE faster than you could without them is considered "botting", then I think a majority of station traders in EVE need to be banned. Heck, even PvPers should be banned for using fitting-management programs. Without them, you'd have to test all your fits in game and that would take longer.




Actually, you can obtain that information in game at the same speed using alts. Apart from that, you're really reaching far with the assumption that programs allowed by CCP are infact botting. The guy was updating a market order every 2 seconds for up to 20 minutes a day. You can't do that through normal gameplay & that's why he was banned for botting, there is no dispute to that.


Exactly. Well said.

There is no dispute that he was botting. This all boils down to a corrupt corp leader who didnt like the fact that his status as a CSM and the status of his corp, didnt allow him to keep known botted ISK when the CCP watchdogs were called in to investigate.

This is all wrapped up neatly in a blanket of deceit and rhetoric by the feigned concern for how things were communicated event though EvE Uni was told multiple times what was going on.

I dont know about you folks, but its pretty clear who to believe in this situation. I would like to thank CCP for their stalwart effort to combat botting and for also maintaining the moral high ground and not bowing down to a corrupt politician trying to sway influence over the process.

Well done CCP.

Kelduum, not so much.

Step Down Kelduum....Step Down Kelduum...Step Down Kelduum

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#684 - 2013-02-13 00:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
You know what I find ironic?

If Kelduum hadn't thrown his toys out of the pram and started the thread over on the E-UNI forums, this wouldn't have blossomed into the amazing source of amusement that we see here.

But, like most politicians, self interest and self importance have overcome common sense, resulting in him and his supporters digging him, and, sadly, by association E-UNI, into a dirty great hole that's going to be very difficult to get out of.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#685 - 2013-02-13 00:15:56 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:

The problem is that being told it was removed because it was illegally obtained is insufficient, given the circumstances.


The isk was obtained iliegally, that is all the info we as players require. WAe have no business in knowing what activities the offender was up to.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#686 - 2013-02-13 00:16:09 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Except the whole part where he used a web-assisted program that allowed him to perform actions faster than they can actually be performed. Kelduum knew about this, no matter how you try to spin it, the evidence is in his initial post.


So is SOMER blink a botting program? EVE Poker? They very largely do things much faster than what can actually be performed in game. These sort of programs are all over the place and well known. Now, I don't know what the program did or if it did anything more or less than what CCP has approved of in the past, but my impression is that the belief is that he was only using programs that performed approved actions that other programs have done already. It is clear though that it being a web application that speeds processes up isn't against the rules in itself, but that there must have been at least the appearance that something else was going on.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#687 - 2013-02-13 00:17:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nikolai Lachance wrote:

The problem is that being told it was removed because it was illegally obtained is insufficient, given the circumstances.


The isk was obtained iliegally, that is all the info we as players require. WAe have no business in knowing what activities the offender was up to.


Correct. Kelduum cleared that up though for anyone curious on a public forum.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#688 - 2013-02-13 00:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Aren Madigan wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Except the whole part where he used a web-assisted program that allowed him to perform actions faster than they can actually be performed. Kelduum knew about this, no matter how you try to spin it, the evidence is in his initial post.


So is SOMER blink a botting program? EVE Poker?


Out of game services using isk, which are perfectly acceptable as they do not manipulate the client or relate to anything ingame beyond 'press butan, receive ship. You know you could find out all of this information for yourself right? For a corporation that prides itself on teaching people about the game, they seem to be doing an amazing amount of not teaching you about the game. Considering what has come to light this day, I am not surprised P

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#689 - 2013-02-13 00:21:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Aren Madigan wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Except the whole part where he used a web-assisted program that allowed him to perform actions faster than they can actually be performed. Kelduum knew about this, no matter how you try to spin it, the evidence is in his initial post.


So is SOMER blink a botting program? EVE Poker? They very largely do things much faster than what can actually be performed in game. These sort of programs are all over the place and well known. Now, I don't know what the program did or if it did anything more or less than what CCP has approved of in the past, but my impression is that the belief is that he was only using programs that performed approved actions that other programs have done already. It is clear though that it being a web application that speeds processes up isn't against the rules in itself, but that there must have been at least the appearance that something else was going on.


Totally different kettle of fish, Eve Poker and Somerblink do not directly interface with the Eve client other than to present a webpage in the IGB. They don't manipulate the client, they don't automate any player interactions and they definitely don't accelerate normal gameplay. All they do is present a player with the chance to gamble with ingame currency and possibly win ingame assets, which btw is acceptable to both CCP and the playerbase at large, they are providing an ingame service for ingame currency.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#690 - 2013-02-13 00:21:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nikolai Lachance wrote:

The problem is that being told it was removed because it was illegally obtained is insufficient, given the circumstances.


The isk was obtained iliegally, that is all the info we as players require. WAe have no business in knowing what activities the offender was up to.

But I'm the leader of a large alliance in the game dedicated to teaching players, and I'm a member of the CSM. Clearly I'm entitled to special treatment!

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Callie Cross
Tax Code
#691 - 2013-02-13 00:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Callie Cross
Liang Nuren wrote:
Callie Cross wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Paragraphs 4 and 5 of Kelduum's post on Eve-University forums are an implicit endorsement of botting.

-Liang



CCP ruled it botting. CCP Sreegs has come on this very thread and been quite emphatic that the guy was botting.

THE GUY WAS BOTTING.

And Kelduum explicitly endorses this form of it. And now that he has, so has the rest of Eve-University. And that's not even where it stops - now Kelduum has taken it upon himself to directly and intentionally cross the line of being a CSM member to "help CCP" into being a raging baby throwing a tantrum and deliberately and willfully harm CCP.

-Liang


In your brain it goes like this:

CCP > Kelduum: He was botting. We took your isk.
Kelduum > CCP: I know, but I want that ISK.
Kelduum > World: I support botting!! WAAA!!! I WANT ISKIES WAAAAAA!!!

But that's not what is presented by Kelduum is it? Have you actually read his post?

He stated that to his knowledge no botting had occurred when he wrote the petition. So AT THE TIME OF THE PETITION he states:
Quote:

"Due to the size of the transfer, I wanted to double check that the isk was all legal, and not due to some illicit activity."


So clearly he isn't thinking it was from a CCP botting ban at this time.

When he received a response from it didn't say why, and I quote again:

Quote:
Eight days later, we had a response, thanking us for bringing it to CCPs attention, and explaining that due to the ISK being related to a security matter, it has been confiscated.



So again... He asks another question:

"I can see that you may have assumed he was botting (whether he was or not I can't dispute as I have no proof either way) - however I'm wondering why the ISK was left with him at that time, and then later removed?"

That's not Ego Maniacal.
That's not crazy.
That's not entitlement.
That's not him endorsing botting.

That's a simple question.

CCP doesn't have to answer it, but he was in no way out of bounds for asking. All of this nonsense torch waving against Kelduum is ridiculous. If you don't like him, you don't like him, but don't sound ignorant for it.

Do I think he was over emotional. Sure. Could it have been done a little less dramatically? I guess so. But if that's the case 90% of these posts, including yours are guilty of the same crime. Putting way more emotional crap ontop of simple facts.
Corelin
The Fancy Hats Corporation
#692 - 2013-02-13 00:23:35 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

3) The only authority higher than the Director of Security for these complaints is the Executive Producer and then the CEO. This is a higher level of escalation than the Customer Service arm and IA automatically looks at our work.

you don't see a potential conflict of interest in IA being part of a team it is tasked to investigate?


Only in a creepy shadow world where nobody in our chain can be trusted. In this case none of us would be employable by anyone so while it might make for interesting eve news tinfoil fodder it really doesn't have much basis in reality.

In reality I'm the one who watches the watchers.


And we watch you. Oh yes we do.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#693 - 2013-02-13 00:23:39 UTC
CCP Sreegs you've provided quite a bit of hilarity here trying to explain something simple to the tinfoil encrusted masses. If I ever get the chance I'll have to buy you a beer for it.

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Kathern Aurilen
#694 - 2013-02-13 00:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kathern Aurilen
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
Ok so, this all seems fairly normal to me, guy gets banned for updating 30 market orders a minute (yes 1 every 2 seconds, cmon), so CCP let him keep the isk.

But as soon as he donates to to EVE Uni, and they graciously ask you if it is legal, you take it from them? Why is that? It seems a little unfair considering you were going to let the guy keep his 300bil. ESPECIALLY as they were so honest.

Just a thought :)
It wasn't decided to "let him keep the isk". It IS policy to take the assets and was AGREEDED UPON but some Code Enforcement keyboard monkey forget to take the assets UNTIL EUni reminded someone and then took action to cover his ass and there is where all the drama started.

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#695 - 2013-02-13 00:24:47 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
CCP Sreegs you've provided quite a bit of hilarity here trying to explain something simple to the tinfoil encrusted masses. If I ever get the chance I'll have to buy you a beer for it.


Pub-crawl with a Dev, if you're going.

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Josef Djugashvilis
#696 - 2013-02-13 00:27:02 UTC
Kelduum over-stepped the mark when he wanted/insisted that CCP justify the action they had taken against another player.

What happened was between CCP and 'John' and no one else is entitled to or has a right to know the details.

This is not a signature.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#697 - 2013-02-13 00:29:44 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:



So again... He asks "why?".

That's not Ego Maniacal.
That's not crazy.
That's not entitlement.
That's not him endorsing botting.

That's a simple question.

Do I think he was over emotional. Sure. Could it have been done a little less dramatically? I guess so. But if that's the case 90% of these posts, including yours are guilty of the same crime. Putting way more emotional crap ontop of simple facts.


He then goes on to attack the CCP security team and attempts to drag their names through the mud while ranting about how CCP has unfairly treated E-Uni over the years while attempting to make it look like "john" has been a victim of wrongfull punishment.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#698 - 2013-02-13 00:30:39 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:

In your brain it goes like this:

CCP > Kelduum: He was botting. We took your isk.
Kelduum > CCP: I know, but I want that ISK.
Kelduum > World: I support botting!! WAAA!!! I WANT ISKIES WAAAAAA!!!

But that's not what is presented by Kelduum is it? Have you actually read his post?


You know, I did actually read his post. What I saw was:
CCP > Bans "John" for botting
"John" > Finishes suspension, liquidates ISK, gives to E-Uni
Kelduum > Petitions ISK (as he should)
CCP > Whoops. Yeah, that's bot ISK. Deletes ISK THIS IS YOUR FORMAL NOTIFICATION THAT THIS IS BOT ISK
Kelduum > Hey, can I have SOME of the ISK then? It would fund Uni programs forever! And Uni is special!
CCP > No. It's bot ISK. No you can't have it.
Kelduum > Hey, are you sure I can't have it?
CCP > No. It's bot ISK. No you can't have it.
Kelduum > Hey, are you sure I can't have it?
CCP > No. It's bot ISK. No you can't have it.
Kelduum > Hey, are you sure I can't have it?
CCP > No. It's bot ISK. No you can't have it.
Kelduum > Hey, are you sure I can't have it?
CCP > No. It's bot ISK. No you can't have it.
Kelduum > Hey, are you sure I can't have it?
CCP > No. It's bot ISK. No you can't have it. (#6)
Kelduum > Makes giant poast on Eve-Uni forums defending "John" and his botting, says it's not botting, says CCP has it in for Uni
CCP > No, he was botting.

Quote:
Do I think he was over emotional. Sure. Could it have been done a little less dramatically? I guess so. But if that's the case 90% of these posts, including yours are guilty of the same crime. Putting way more emotional crap ontop of simple facts.


No, Kelduum has explicitly endorsed certain kinds of botting in his post. The Uni has followed suit - and perhaps even officially so given that Kelduum is its leader.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Shamon Hussad
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#699 - 2013-02-13 00:30:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cool, how about we call it "hacking the game client" or "automating game actions" or "roboting the game" or something?

-Liang

You're an idiot, reading the game cache is not botting.

ITT: People hating on Kelduum because a) they are ******** and don't actually read his posts or b) just because
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#700 - 2013-02-13 00:31:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nikolai Lachance wrote:

The problem is that being told it was removed because it was illegally obtained is insufficient, given the circumstances.


The isk was obtained iliegally, that is all the info we as players require. WAe have no business in knowing what activities the offender was up to.

You missed the point. I'm not saying CCP owed Kelduum detailed information about how the ISK was obtained. However, given the way in which the ISK was brought to their attention, the communication of the illegality of the ISK should have been made in such a way as to assure Kelduum this determination was made legitimately and not simply because he brought it up with them.

It comes down to this: The fact that they failed to confiscate the ISK until after Kelduum brought it up by itself creates suspicion that the confiscation was not totally legitimate. This suspicion could have been mitigated by better communication regarding why this confiscation was delayed as it was. Their repeated refusal to provide this information served to reinforce the suspicion rather than allay it.