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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#601 - 2013-02-12 23:00:07 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
A) a delay between when this determination was made and when the ISK was removed, and B) why the determination only seemed to come when Kelduum spoke up about it.



A) Somebody forgot, and B) Somebody was remembered about it.



how hard to understand is that?

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#602 - 2013-02-12 23:00:37 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:

Honestly? I can see some of the difficulty, yeah, which is why I'm not angry at CCP... yet. But I would say it'd do a lot of damage to CCP's position if someone made a video on how this was done. If "John" was legit, wish he would have stuck around to do that at least. If not? Good riddance.


John was botting. Really. I mean it. This is a provable thing, and CCP only bans on 150% proof.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#603 - 2013-02-12 23:01:06 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else.


An oversight that they fixed.


But not before it did significant damage.

No damage at all was done, so I'm not sure what your point is here.


Upset customers is what one would call PR damage. Don't have to agree with those people, and maybe they are being unreasonable, but its not "nothing" regardless. Granted, if Kelduum is wrong and the guy did bot, he really needs to be smacked for riling people up. Otherwise, I'd say he's perfectly within his rights whether people like it or not.

CCP Sreegs is not guilty of causing that damage. Kelduum is.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#604 - 2013-02-12 23:02:01 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
So, wait, Kelduum had questions about its legality, and when those questions were confirmed......people are all of a sudden surprised that it was, in fact, illegal ISK.

Yes, because the way in which it was communicated cast doubt that any legitimate process was used to make that determination. That being that the ISK was not removed when the player in question was suspended for botting, and because no explanation for why there was A) a delay between when this determination was made and when the ISK was removed, and B) why the determination only seemed to come when Kelduum spoke up about it.



Such a strawman.

Thats what this is boiling down to now.


The man was botting. The isk was llegal. The isk was repossed and destroyed.


All this other white knighting and hang ringing is a side show, a side show which no one with an ounce of sense will believe.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#605 - 2013-02-12 23:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Or maybe he was a botting bastard and just really good at convincing people he was on the up and up. I don't know.

Not an argument, just an observation, but most botters are very, very good at convincing people that they don't bot (unless you are one of their partners).

Just as some of the most ruthless criminals in history were (at the time) considered to be incredibly generous by those that were in their favor.

How many times have we seen this same drama played out, where a friend of someone banned comes on the forums full of outrage because his "totally trustworthy" friend was banned for botting. This person honestly believes he can vouche for his internet buddy because "Hey, I've known this guy for years and he's a good guy. Very generous, doing good deeds every day." Only to have it end up revealed, often by sheepish confession, that the person in question had been heavily botting for years.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#606 - 2013-02-12 23:03:02 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
So, wait, Kelduum had questions about its legality, and when those questions were confirmed......people are all of a sudden surprised that it was, in fact, illegal ISK.

Yes, because the way in which it was communicated cast doubt that any legitimate process was used to make that determination. That being that the ISK was not removed when the player in question was suspended for botting, and because no explanation for why there was A) a delay between when this determination was made and when the ISK was removed, and B) why the determination only seemed to come when Kelduum spoke up about it.



They forgot to remove the isk and when kelduum sent the mail they realised the mistake and took the correct action. How is this hard for you?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#607 - 2013-02-12 23:05:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
So, wait, Kelduum had questions about its legality, and when those questions were confirmed......people are all of a sudden surprised that it was, in fact, illegal ISK.

Yes, because the way in which it was communicated cast doubt that any legitimate process was used to make that determination. That being that the ISK was not removed when the player in question was suspended for botting, and because no explanation for why there was A) a delay between when this determination was made and when the ISK was removed, and B) why the determination only seemed to come when Kelduum spoke up about it.



They forgot to remove the isk and when kelduum sent the mail they realised the mistake and took the correct action. How is this hard for you?

Because it's not what they want to hear.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#608 - 2013-02-12 23:05:40 UTC
Thanks to everyone in this thread for giving me something to do this evening.

Special congratulations to CCP Sreegs for posting on the forums like a Boss again!

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#609 - 2013-02-12 23:06:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else.


An oversight that they fixed.


But not before it did significant damage.


And what damage would that be exactly?


Well, that would be the hopes and dreams of internet spaceship nerds, of course! (who I'm sure knew nothing about it before Kelduum's thread, so...)

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2013-02-12 23:07:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They forgot to remove the isk and when kelduum sent the mail they realised the mistake and took the correct action. How is this hard for you?

That may in fact be what happened. And if so, then so be it. The problem isn't that this happened. The problem is in how it was communicated. The communication created an impression of incompetence covered up for by misconduct. If this was all communicated to Kelduum in the way Sreegs communicated it to us in his initial post here, this wouldn't have been such a big issue, I'm sure.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#611 - 2013-02-12 23:07:33 UTC
Kelduum and is thugs are showing their truth colors, they probably have secret bot classes in E-uni.

+1 to Whores in space for blowing them up.

The Tears Must Flow
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#612 - 2013-02-12 23:07:59 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:

Honestly? I can see some of the difficulty, yeah, which is why I'm not angry at CCP... yet. But I would say it'd do a lot of damage to CCP's position if someone made a video on how this was done. If "John" was legit, wish he would have stuck around to do that at least. If not? Good riddance.


John was botting. Really. I mean it. This is a provable thing, and CCP only bans on 150% proof.

-Liang


Did CCP ban Psyco Groupie on 150% proof? You should know you are lying like CCP.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#613 - 2013-02-12 23:09:29 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They forgot to remove the isk and when kelduum sent the mail they realised the mistake and took the correct action. How is this hard for you?

That may in fact be what happened. And if so, then so be it. The problem isn't that this happened. The problem is in how it was communicated. The communication created an impression of incompetence covered up for by misconduct. If this was all communicated to Kelduum in the way Sreegs communicated it to us in his initial post here, this wouldn't have been such a big issue, I'm sure.


it's still a non-issue, since, aparently, this was escalated six times

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#614 - 2013-02-12 23:09:33 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Such a strawman.

Really? What argument did I misrepresent and attack?


Quote:
The man was botting. The isk was llegal. The isk was repossed and destroyed.

Not in dispute here. It's the manner in which it was handled and communicated that is.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#615 - 2013-02-12 23:11:26 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

CCP Sreegs is not guilty of causing that damage. Kelduum is.


Takes two to tango. Someone screwed up. Someone else esculated the screw up *shrugs*. If the first didn't happen, the second wouldn't have happened. Who is more at wrong? I'm not sure, don't have the whole story, nor are we likely to get it.

Liang Nuren wrote:

John was botting. Really. I mean it. This is a provable thing, and CCP only bans on 150% proof.

-Liang


No one is perfect. I'm not going to make a judgement based on loyalty to a company. Nor am I going to make one based on loyalty to my corp. You can shout and scream "THIS IS TRUE! REALLY!" but its ultimately rings hollow. Hell, even if it was based on loyalty, CCP created a game I enjoy, E-UNI provided me a place where I felt I could actually stick with the game and enjoy it. Bam, pulled both ways, so even if I was that sort, I wouldn't be able to make a judgement solidly in my mind. Its not a good way to make decisions regardless though.

If anything this topic shouldn't be about if CCP was right or wrong as no one. NO ONE but CCP or "John" has access to the information needed to prove this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#616 - 2013-02-12 23:11:46 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They forgot to remove the isk and when kelduum sent the mail they realised the mistake and took the correct action. How is this hard for you?

That may in fact be what happened. And if so, then so be it. The problem isn't that this happened. The problem is in how it was communicated. The communication created an impression of incompetence covered up for by misconduct. If this was all communicated to Kelduum in the way Sreegs communicated it to us in his initial post here, this wouldn't have been such a big issue, I'm sure.



He was told multiple times why it was removed and as with every case the details of the case will not be shared with anyone other than the offender.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#617 - 2013-02-12 23:15:11 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They forgot to remove the isk and when kelduum sent the mail they realised the mistake and took the correct action. How is this hard for you?

That may in fact be what happened. And if so, then so be it. The problem isn't that this happened. The problem is in how it was communicated. The communication created an impression of incompetence covered up for by misconduct. If this was all communicated to Kelduum in the way Sreegs communicated it to us in his initial post here, this wouldn't have been such a big issue, I'm sure.


Sreegs has stated multiple times that EXACTLY this was communicated to Kelduum multiple times (6 times). He then still went ahead and made his thread to kick up a stink because he didn't like being told he couldn't know any more.

Really, that's as far as it goes - Kelduum threw his dummy because Daddy said no.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#618 - 2013-02-12 23:15:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
He was told multiple times why it was removed and as with every case the details of the case will not be shared with anyone other than the offender.


Which while understandable, is unfortunate as details make or break everything. Privacy comes first though.
Callie Cross
Tax Code
#619 - 2013-02-12 23:15:35 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Callie Cross wrote:

You sure are comfy with your knowledge of their proof. Whether or not they can, how do you know so well?? I would suspect that CCP would ban with far less than 100% proof. If it walks, talks, etc.

So taking the liberty to say that you know for a fact that CCP has proof seems a bit much. Not that this point really matters at all in any way, the people saying that Kelduum is defending botting are either trolling or lacking adequate mental acuity in my opinion.


Yes, I'm quite confident in my ability to detect botting, hacking, spoofing, and cheating in my games. I may not catch every case, but I'm quite positive about the ones I do catch. I assume CCP to be at least as competent as me.

-Liang



This really isn't a conversation about whether or not he was botting though. I'm sure a pretty decent size of the player base knows something about botting and detection methods even if that isn't their day job as is yours. This is a fairly tech minded crowd.

Everyone keeps jumping on this EUNI CEO SUPPORTS BOTTING bandwagon, but no one can provide a single word of source backing it up.

Where is that source? If it's provided, I'll beg apologies, but it seems to me that this has turned from a simple case of "Why wasn't the ISK taken immediately? Can I get an answer?" To "Self entitled ego mad man leader of E-Uni launches personal attack on CCP and uses brainwashed army to support botting!!!"

Come on...
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#620 - 2013-02-12 23:15:55 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Such a strawman.

Really? What argument did I misrepresent and attack?


Quote:
The man was botting. The isk was llegal. The isk was repossed and destroyed.

Not in dispute here. It's the manner in which it was handled and communicated that is.



The whole argument has morphed into a misrepresentation and an attack on CCP. This WAS NEVER about CCP and oversight.

This isnt about justice or whats right, its about a corp leader and CSM member throwing a forum tantrum when he couldnt keep botted isk.

The more some of you try to make this out to be about CCP the more ridiculous you look to those who see this whole fiasco for what it is.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]