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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#581 - 2013-02-12 22:44:42 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else.


An oversight that they fixed.


But not before it did significant damage.


And what damage would that be exactly?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#582 - 2013-02-12 22:45:50 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else.


An oversight that they fixed.


But not before it did significant damage. Actually, it brings up another odd thing. He was banned for "suspected botting". One would think that'd mean they are investigating and they are unsure. If they confirmed it, why was he unbanned at all? It would no longer have been "suspected botting". Or extend the ban if nothing else. It really makes them sound uncertain and that they are investigating. So what happens if someone is suspected and they clear them then something like this happens? Do some security members see the old ban on file and base it off that? Do they have attached notes to it with pointers to confirm that it was indeed the case so when their supervisor checks it over, they can confirm that it was the proper action and they weren't just rushing things to get it over with? I don't know... strikes me as a little odd is all, but business can be screwy like that.


Your CEO came up with the term "suspected botting" all on his own. CCP Sreegs was pretty clear that 'John' was flat out botting.

Indeed, although I am curious as to what "significant damage" was done... other than to a certain CSM members ego.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Terraferma K10
Doomheim
#583 - 2013-02-12 22:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Terraferma K10
For those just getting here, here's what's happened so far:

John: *bot bot bot*
CCP: *14day ban*
John: *give all money to corp and delete toon*
Corp: "Hey CCP, we think this money is illegal. Can you check it's validity?"
CCP: "Good call. It looks like you were right, it was illegal. How responsible of you." *deletes illegal money*
Corp: "Hey CCP, why'd you delete that illegal money?"
CCP: "Because it's illegal."
Corp: "Hey CCP, why'd you ban our corpmate in the first place?"
CCP: "He was botting."
Corp: "Hey CCP, how was he botting?"
CCP: "We can't disclose that information."
Corp: "Why not? Aren't we involved in this too?"
CCP: "No, the owner of the driveway a thief ditches his stolen car in isn't entitled to the method of how the car was stolen."
Corp: *Rise*
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#584 - 2013-02-12 22:46:35 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
That's not how it went down. Kelduum petitioned it SIX times & was told SIX times why the isk was confiscated. He didn't like the answer, so he claimed there was no answer & accused CCP of misconduct which is ironic considering he's supporting & defending the actions of a botter.

He didn't like the answer because it seems the only decided it was illegal AFTER Kelduum asked about it. The apparent misconduct is that they confiscated ISK they had no original intention of confiscating only because someone asked about it. Clearly it was confiscated because of the way in which it was amassed. That isn't in question. What is in question is the fact that it wasn't confiscated at the time when it should have been, thus implying that an original determination that it WASN'T illegally obtained was made, and this determination was altered only as a result of Kelduum asking about it.

I'm not saying that's what actually happened, but it does sound like the communications that Kelduum received from CCP, which he cannot share with us, made it sound like that's what happened.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#585 - 2013-02-12 22:46:39 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:

How deep does this rabbit hole go at Eve University? CCP should do some more digging around that Corp and its assets in the name of justice.

I threw a coin like half hour ago.





never heard it hit the bottom.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Callie Cross
Tax Code
#586 - 2013-02-12 22:48:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


Let's suppose for a moment that you were in CCP's place. You have a player that you can PROVE was botting. Yes, prove. Beyond any shadow of any possible doubt, ever. In a court of law if you needed or wanted to.


You sure are comfy with your knowledge of their proof. Whether or not they can, how do you know so well?? I would suspect that CCP would ban with far less than 100% proof. If it walks, talks, etc.

So taking the liberty to say that you know for a fact that CCP has proof seems a bit much. Not that this point really matters at all in any way, the people saying that Kelduum is defending botting are either trolling or lacking adequate mental acuity in my opinion.

Liang Nuren wrote:

The CSM member makes a petition asking if he can keep the ISK, and no he really can't. Whoops. Now the CSM member is doing everything in his power to torpedo you and permanently damage the company you work for. .


Really? Because he wanted to know who "watches the watchmen?" after being told that CCP Sreegs was the highest authority in the matter? Just as I agree that "not getting an answer you like" is not the same as "not getting an answer", I must also agree that "not agreeing with a person's judgement" is not the same as "doing everything in his power to torpedo ... the company".

That's a bit of a stretch...

Liang Nuren wrote:
He's claiming his friend didn't bot and is actively defending the man's good character.


How evil..? Defending a friend... And where exactly did he say he did not bot? Source?

Liang Nuren wrote:

He's trying to hold his CSM status over your head and his influential position over the subs of hundreds of new players over you to force you to let him keep the ISK. He's got all his frieds and trying to wield the power of his corp to do the same.


What? Where is this? This sounds again like personal opinion and not fact. Where has he shown in all of this that he is holding CSM over peoples' heads? Where is he trying to force people to let him keep the ISK? Fox News much?



Again, I understand its popular to hate on E-UNI for some, and it's all fun to rail against Kelduum for many, but stick to the facts. Blowing this out of proportion with rants and crazy emotional claims doesn't do either side any good, and just devolves the issue into nonsense.
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#587 - 2013-02-12 22:48:16 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Finde learth wrote:
A 30m sp character, means play at least 14 month.
CCP though he use market bot from beginning so remove all his "illegal" 300B ISK because of a 14 days ban.


Yes. What's the problem here?

-Liang


CCP have changed ban process one year ago. If they detect bot daily, ban it daily.
And the ban of bot was the first step of their 3-strike policy.

So 14 days ban should be a warn.

It should not be removal of all assets and ISK after you play over one year or more, especially when the removal didn't happen with ban. Actually they should happen at same time.

ill-gained isk is removed. somebody forgot about removing the isk, and that's pretty much the only thing CCP is at fault here. they are humans after all.


Do you know CCP remove ISK base on the time using BOT?
They didn't remove all your asset and ISK just because you are using bot.
But they did it in this case when they forgot to remove ISK and discussed it over 3 weeks.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#588 - 2013-02-12 22:49:42 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
That's not how it went down. Kelduum petitioned it SIX times & was told SIX times why the isk was confiscated. He didn't like the answer, so he claimed there was no answer & accused CCP of misconduct which is ironic considering he's supporting & defending the actions of a botter.

He didn't like the answer because it seems the only decided it was illegal AFTER Kelduum asked about it. The apparent misconduct is that they confiscated ISK they had no original intention of confiscating only because someone asked about it. Clearly it was confiscated because of the way in which it was amassed. That isn't in question. What is in question is the fact that it wasn't confiscated at the time when it should have been, thus implying that an original determination that it WASN'T illegally obtained was made, and this determination was altered only as a result of Kelduum asking about it.

I'm not saying that's what actually happened, but it does sound like the communications that Kelduum received from CCP, which he cannot share with us, made it sound like that's what happened.


Someone forgot to take the isk. Thats as deep as it gets.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#589 - 2013-02-12 22:50:37 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:
You sure are comfy with your knowledge of their proof. Whether or not they can, how do you know so well?? I would suspect that CCP would ban with far less than 100% proof. If it walks, talks, etc.



now people are demanding proof out of suppositions.


this thread just keeps getting better and better.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#590 - 2013-02-12 22:51:02 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You seem to have profound and unrepairable issues with CCP's word and trustworthyness about their official statements.

Why are you still playing a game when you don't trust their official word?


I trust them enough to stick around. I don't trust anyone enough to blindly assume someone is right. Someone can very easily screw up. Sometimes the screw ups aren't looked into closely enough. It happens. But again, my main complaint right now are the people trying to use things that aren't evidence in the slightest which is what that post you linked to was specifically referring to and ultimately what that whole conversation was about.

Liang Nuren wrote:

Let's suppose for a moment that you were in CCP's place. You have a player that you can PROVE was botting. Yes, prove. Beyond any shadow of any possible doubt, ever. In a court of law if you needed or wanted to. But you ****** up and didn't take away his ISK before his suspension was over and he gave it all to a CSM member/friend and ragequit.

The CSM member makes a petition asking if he can keep the ISK, and no he really can't. Whoops. Now the CSM member is doing everything in his power to torpedo you and permanently damage the company you work for. He's claiming his friend didn't bot and is actively defending the man's good character. He's trying to hold his CSM status over your head and his influential position over the subs of hundreds of new players over you to force you to let him keep the ISK. He's got all his frieds and trying to wield the power of his corp to do the same.

Now, what would you do?

-Liang

Ed: Remember, this is a high profile case and will probably be "precedent setting". Allowing the proceeds from bot-gathering-donated-to-friends to remain in game has obvious consequences.


Honestly? I can see some of the difficulty, yeah, which is why I'm not angry at CCP... yet. But I would say it'd do a lot of damage to CCP's position if someone made a video on how this was done. If "John" was legit, wish he would have stuck around to do that at least. If not? Good riddance.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#591 - 2013-02-12 22:52:05 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
That's not how it went down. Kelduum petitioned it SIX times & was told SIX times why the isk was confiscated. He didn't like the answer, so he claimed there was no answer & accused CCP of misconduct which is ironic considering he's supporting & defending the actions of a botter.

He didn't like the answer because it seems the only decided it was illegal AFTER Kelduum asked about it. The apparent misconduct is that they confiscated ISK they had no original intention of confiscating only because someone asked about it. Clearly it was confiscated because of the way in which it was amassed. That isn't in question. What is in question is the fact that it wasn't confiscated at the time when it should have been, thus implying that an original determination that it WASN'T illegally obtained was made, and this determination was altered only as a result of Kelduum asking about it.

I'm not saying that's what actually happened, but it does sound like the communications that Kelduum received from CCP, which he cannot share with us, made it sound like that's what happened.

I really don't think anything was implied.
They did the correct thing and asked about it, thereby helping CCP to correct an oversight.
The did the incorrect thing by not accepting CCP's explanation that it should have been confiscated and it was an oversight.
They did the incorrect thing by pestering them for details on a matter that was none of their business.
They did an incorrect thing by trying to stir up forum drama over a cut and dried situation.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#592 - 2013-02-12 22:52:38 UTC
Can you prove that the ISK even existed?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#593 - 2013-02-12 22:52:45 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else.


An oversight that they fixed.


But not before it did significant damage.

No damage at all was done, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#594 - 2013-02-12 22:53:06 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
That's not how it went down. Kelduum petitioned it SIX times & was told SIX times why the isk was confiscated. He didn't like the answer, so he claimed there was no answer & accused CCP of misconduct which is ironic considering he's supporting & defending the actions of a botter.

He didn't like the answer because it seems the only decided it was illegal AFTER Kelduum asked about it. The apparent misconduct is that they confiscated ISK they had no original intention of confiscating only because someone asked about it. Clearly it was confiscated because of the way in which it was amassed. That isn't in question. What is in question is the fact that it wasn't confiscated at the time when it should have been, thus implying that an original determination that it WASN'T illegally obtained was made, and this determination was altered only as a result of Kelduum asking about it.

I'm not saying that's what actually happened, but it does sound like the communications that Kelduum received from CCP, which he cannot share with us, made it sound like that's what happened.


So, wait, Kelduum had questions about its legality, and when those questions were confirmed......people are all of a sudden surprised that it was, in fact, illegal ISK.


The failure in basic logic regarding this issue is astounding. That is all part of Kelduum's plan to really muddy the waters in an attempt to flex his power and his corp in the direction of CCP because he couldn't keep botted ISK.


That is some solid leadership for a CSM and leader of one of the most historically benevolent player run entities in Eve.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#595 - 2013-02-12 22:54:41 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
So why the biomass and giving away off all iskies and assets after strike one?

Disenfranchisement? I might be acquainted with the individual being referred to as "John" but I don't know who that is so I can't speak to his character at all. However, it is not outside the realm of possibility that a person who believes they have done nothing wrong other than be successful at a game be punished with a suspension for it would feel disenfranchised enough to no longer invest their time in said game. Thus, this individual decides to quit. Or maybe he was a botting bastard and just really good at convincing people he was on the up and up. I don't know.


Quote:
None of this story is believable at this point.

Eve Uni has got themselves caught up in a full scale scandal.

Kelduum Step down from the CSM and Eve Uni now.

Your incredulity and assessment of this situation read as disingenuous. That or you're just a drama queen.


Quote:
How deep does this rabbit hole go at Eve University? CCP should do some more digging around that Corp and its assets in the name of justice.

Hmm... leaning toward drama queen.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#596 - 2013-02-12 22:57:25 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
They should have taken that money away if they had such evidence in the first place rather than allowing him to keep it at all to give it to someone else.


An oversight that they fixed.


But not before it did significant damage.

No damage at all was done, so I'm not sure what your point is here.


Upset customers is what one would call PR damage. Don't have to agree with those people, and maybe they are being unreasonable, but its not "nothing" regardless. Granted, if Kelduum is wrong and the guy did bot, he really needs to be smacked for riling people up. Otherwise, I'd say he's perfectly within his rights whether people like it or not.
Nikolai Lachance
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#597 - 2013-02-12 22:57:33 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
So, wait, Kelduum had questions about its legality, and when those questions were confirmed......people are all of a sudden surprised that it was, in fact, illegal ISK.

Yes, because the way in which it was communicated cast doubt that any legitimate process was used to make that determination. That being that the ISK was not removed when the player in question was suspended for botting, and because no explanation for why there was A) a delay between when this determination was made and when the ISK was removed, and B) why the determination only seemed to come when Kelduum spoke up about it.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#598 - 2013-02-12 22:58:44 UTC
Nikolai Lachance wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
So why the biomass and giving away off all iskies and assets after strike one?

Disenfranchisement? I might be acquainted with the individual being referred to as "John" but I don't know who that is so I can't speak to his character at all. However, it is not outside the realm of possibility that a person who believes they have done nothing wrong other than be successful at a game be punished with a suspension for it would feel disenfranchised enough to no longer invest their time in said game. Thus, this individual decides to quit. Or maybe he was a botting bastard and just really good at convincing people he was on the up and up. I don't know.


Quote:
None of this story is believable at this point.

Eve Uni has got themselves caught up in a full scale scandal.

Kelduum Step down from the CSM and Eve Uni now.

Your incredulity and assessment of this situation read as disingenuous. That or you're just a drama queen.


Quote:
How deep does this rabbit hole go at Eve University? CCP should do some more digging around that Corp and its assets in the name of justice.

Hmm... leaning toward drama queen.



Sure seems like the drama queens started a whole uproar because they couldnt keep botted isk.

Its always a spin tactic to try and turn the finger pointing in another direction.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#599 - 2013-02-12 22:58:55 UTC
After reading through all of this, I just wanted to say thank you to everybody who participated in this thread and provided me with so much first class entertainment.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#600 - 2013-02-12 22:59:08 UTC
Callie Cross wrote:

You sure are comfy with your knowledge of their proof. Whether or not they can, how do you know so well?? I would suspect that CCP would ban with far less than 100% proof. If it walks, talks, etc.

So taking the liberty to say that you know for a fact that CCP has proof seems a bit much. Not that this point really matters at all in any way, the people saying that Kelduum is defending botting are either trolling or lacking adequate mental acuity in my opinion.


Yes, I'm quite confident in my ability to detect botting, hacking, spoofing, and cheating in my games. I may not catch every case, but I'm quite positive about the ones I do catch. I assume CCP to be at least as competent as me.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.