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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#521 - 2013-02-12 21:39:48 UTC
Karbowiak wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
There is no way you can get a average time of 2 sec on that operation pattern.

Based on what? got any evidence beyond what YOU are capable of?


I have evidence. CCP says the guy was botting. He was botting. It's really that simple.

-Liang


Problem is tho, they gave us the tools that allows us to automate a huge chunk of stuff.

It's entirely possible for me to create a system for my own use that.

1. Opens up all the market details for certain typeIDs i deal in
2. Checks the client cache with an external script, to fill in all market orders
3. Figure out where my order is priced (using the API) and what it needs to be to undercut the rest
4. Show me the price an item should be, and also put the new price into the paste buffer
5. I just open the order, and modify the isk value and hit ok
6. Hit next in the browser window

And then restart from #4

If he actually did this, it's nowhere near botting - it would however still allow him to modify market orders at an alarmingly fast rate, which could be mistaken for botting. Lol


You may want to be careful about what you say is and isn't botting. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#522 - 2013-02-12 21:41:03 UTC
HVAC Repairman wrote:
this is the kind of sperging i would expect from my alliance

I must say that this is a very goonish thread indeed. did you guys lost a few spies on EVE-U a few years ago back in the BoB war and totally forgot about them?

Abrazzar wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
by the gods, as the posts continue to flow, I'm starting to lose sight of the hole's depth.Shocked

There is no bottom.

indeed it seems so.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Karbowiak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#523 - 2013-02-12 21:41:37 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Karbowiak wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
There is no way you can get a average time of 2 sec on that operation pattern.

Based on what? got any evidence beyond what YOU are capable of?


I have evidence. CCP says the guy was botting. He was botting. It's really that simple.

-Liang


Problem is tho, they gave us the tools that allows us to automate a huge chunk of stuff.

It's entirely possible for me to create a system for my own use that.

1. Opens up all the market details for certain typeIDs i deal in
2. Checks the client cache with an external script, to fill in all market orders
3. Figure out where my order is priced (using the API) and what it needs to be to undercut the rest
4. Show me the price an item should be, and also put the new price into the paste buffer
5. I just open the order, and modify the isk value and hit ok
6. Hit next in the browser window

And then restart from #4

If he actually did this, it's nowhere near botting - it would however still allow him to modify market orders at an alarmingly fast rate, which could be mistaken for botting. Lol


You may want to be careful about what you say is and isn't botting. ;-)

-Liang


Well, i don't see it as botting, cause i still have to be in the loop to perform the task i want to perform.
A bot does it all for me.

Last i checked, i wasn't a bot Big smile
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#524 - 2013-02-12 21:41:42 UTC
Is this still going on? What the hell are you people arguing about?

He was botting, and then ISK was removed. What's the big?

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Whitehound
#525 - 2013-02-12 21:42:19 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
by the gods, as the posts continue to flow, I'm starting to lose sight of the hole's depth.Shocked

It has no bottom.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#526 - 2013-02-12 21:42:28 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
And you can't prove it can be done...


Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

Also argument from ignorance.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
There is no way you can get a average time of 2 sec on that operation pattern.

Based on what? got any evidence beyond what YOU are capable of?


I have evidence. CCP says the guy was botting. He was botting. It's really that simple.

-Liang


argumentum ad verecundiam


This is not a western democracy and your assertion of "innocent until proven guilty" really doesn't hold any water. This is game and CCP has declared him to be botting. And frankly, I think you would be ******* staggered to know the kinds of metrics that game companies gather about how their users interact with the game.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#527 - 2013-02-12 21:42:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dante Uisen
Karbowiak wrote:
If he actually did this, it's nowhere near botting - it would however still allow him to modify market orders at an alarmingly fast rate, which could be mistaken for botting. Lol


I think it's safe to say a lot of station traders use that method, and there are multiple well know third-party application to handle the market data.

Which leaves the question why did "john" as the only one get banned?, probably because he took it one step further and automated the process of updating the prices.
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#528 - 2013-02-12 21:43:40 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Kelduum Revaan wrote:

The issue is that the manner in which CCP Security deals with these issues, the stated lack of reporting (such as the CSM has with EVE Central Bank) combined with the lack of an appeals process (Judge, Jury and Executioner) is a recipe for distrust.


I want to redirect your attention to this post by CCP Sreegs:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2603295#post2603295

Specifically, this part:

CCP Sreegs wrote:

Will we see a thread next that Hilmar has no oversight? At what level is oversight acceptable? A director? A VP? At what level is complete fabrication designed specifically to cause my team and my company's reputation harm acceptable?


That's you. You deliberately and willfully crossed the line and are deliberately attempting to harm CCP.

-Liang


CCP keep lying "One Universe // One War".
Karbowiak
State War Academy
Caldari State
#529 - 2013-02-12 21:44:45 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
Karbowiak wrote:
If he actually did this, it's nowhere near botting - it would however still allow him to modify market orders at an alarmingly fast rate, which could be mistaken for botting. Lol


I think it's safe to say a lot of station traders use that method, and there are multiple well know third-party application to handle the market data.

Which leaves the question why did "john" as the only one get banned?, probably because to he it one step further and automated the process of updating the prices.


How would you automatically update the price tho?
There is no API for it, there is no concievable way for you to do it, UNLESS you modify the client.

And from what Keldum wrote, he gave over the code for his tool. I don't know about you, but if i modified the client, and only recieved a temp ban, i sure as hell wouldn't give over the code, that directly showed i modified the client Lol

But without "John" coming forward, or showing the community the code, it's all speculation Roll
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#530 - 2013-02-12 21:46:29 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:


Which leaves the question why did "john" as the only one get banned?, probably because he took it one step further and automated the process of updating the prices.


Ding Ding Ding.


Its pretty clear what transpired.


The angling and spin doctoring trying to recoup the illegal ISK and the lengths a CSM would go to smear CCP is what is the real story here.


A Pro botting CSM.

Strange days indeed.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#531 - 2013-02-12 21:47:14 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
CCP keep lying "One Universe // One War".


Would you please expound upon this because this is like the 5th time you've said the same cryptic ****.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alicia Fermi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#532 - 2013-02-12 21:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Alicia Fermi
Aren Madigan wrote:
Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

This is not a court of law. It is a game where you rent assets from CCP.

Incidentally, the rule against rules lawyering makes much of the(se) thread(s) amusing. It seems it is OK for Unistas to re-interpret rules of others to their own liking.
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#533 - 2013-02-12 21:49:12 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Is this still going on? What the hell are you people arguing about?

He was botting, and then ISK was removed. What's the big?


You see, he might have been botting, but it didn't count because he gave the money to an important spaceship corporation.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#534 - 2013-02-12 21:51:35 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
My concerns were (and at time of writing, some are) that:

1. This is a significant amount of ISK to remove from the economy, and as such could be dangerous to the based on where and how it happened - for example, the player in question could have ‘dumped’ a large volume of stock of some item for very little.
2. That the whole balance was removed and this only appeared to happen a week after we brought it to CCPs attention, which suggested that it had been cleared and would have remained on the account of the person in question otherwise.
3. That no explanation other than “its a security matter” and “the ISK was obtained illegally” was provided even though the ISK was removed from EVE University itself, where previous occurrences of similar events resulted in a mail from a GM explaining what had happened (bot/RMT/hacked account).
4. That as a number of corp members were aware of the donation, and due to the amount of ISK involved, to avoid any allegations I would need to make the results of the petitions (including an outline of those petitions) public, and without a response this could look bad on CCP.
5. That I received no response as to the above concerns and instead was told that, in no uncertain terms, that I would receive no further information and that I was free to escalate this or make it as public as I wanted.
6. The responses to my petitions stated that there was no escalation path available for security matters, which was backed up by various sources, and that all attempts to locate one and deal with this quietly resulted in the path looping back on itself.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
Disagreement I don't mind.

In which case, I disagree with your statement that the concerns and questions were previously explained either via the petition system or in private, and as such I give you full permission to post all relevant material publicly in its entirety.

Whether or not “John” was using a macro/botting or any other illegal activity, the process of addressing the petition and the nature of the responses may have highlighted a flaw in CCPs procedures, which is simply bad customer relations.

The issue is that the manner in which CCP Security deals with these issues, the stated lack of reporting (such as the CSM has with EVE Central Bank) combined with the lack of an appeals process (Judge, Jury and Executioner) is a recipe for distrust.


Given the fact that you questioned it's legitimacy by reporting it, I don't understand why you made such a huge deal out of this. Apart from that, you've used your position as CEO of E-UNI to attack the policies of CCP, which are in place for a damn good reason. That you're on the CSM makes this whole thing that much worse.

E-UNI will forever be tarnished due to this occurence, for harbouring,condoning & supporting a botter (that judging from your post, you knew about) & attacking CCP's actions in removing a sum of isk from the game that you suspected had been obtained by illegitimate methods. For the sake of E-UNI & all the good it has done, you need to step down as you're clearly not the sort of person that should be running such an organisation.

Now, you say that John is responsible for many wiki entries, so the possibility exists that he has shared some of his illegitimate methods with potentially hundreds of unsuspecting players. The right thing to do in this case would be to remove his wiki entries.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#535 - 2013-02-12 21:52:14 UTC
Alicia Fermi wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

This is not a court of law. It is a game where you rent assets from CCP.


OK, ban everyone then, everyone's guilty, no proof that they're not! He's botting and HE's botting and so is she!

Ban everyone who types at more than 120 WPM because this is clearly a bot, despite the world record being 216! Nope, the average is around 60ish. Anyone too much faster than than is CLEARLY a botter.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#536 - 2013-02-12 21:53:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
ITT an internet spaceships politician is discovered to be acting in his own organisations interests when it comes to dirty money, at the expense of the good of the game and their own reputation, which is now in tatters..

Sounds like real politics to me.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#537 - 2013-02-12 21:54:45 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
ITT an internet spaceships politician is discovered to be acting in his own organisations interests when it comes to dirty money, at the expense of the good of the game

Sounds like real politics to me.


EVE is r...



Ah, frak it

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#538 - 2013-02-12 21:57:19 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Alicia Fermi wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

This is not a court of law. It is a game where you rent assets from CCP.


OK, ban everyone then, everyone's guilty, no proof that they're not! He's botting and HE's botting and so is she!

Ban everyone who types at more than 120 WPM because this is clearly a bot, despite the world record being 216! Nope, the average is around 60ish. Anyone too much faster than than is CLEARLY a botter.


You are only making yourself look stupid or pro botting. He was caught botting like countless others and temp banned and isk removed.
Zelda Wei
New Horizon Trade Exchange
#539 - 2013-02-12 21:58:00 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
In my opinion cache scraping is illegal. You won't be banned for it today.


Please explain why?

This has long been considered legit, because,the client is not modified, the market cache is only read.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#540 - 2013-02-12 21:58:20 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Alicia Fermi wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

This is not a court of law. It is a game where you rent assets from CCP.


OK, ban everyone then, everyone's guilty, no proof that they're not! He's botting and HE's botting and so is she!

Ban everyone who types at more than 120 WPM because this is clearly a bot, despite the world record being 216! Nope, the average is around 60ish. Anyone too much faster than than is CLEARLY a botter.


CCP can and does freely ban upon criteria that they have set up and are internally monitored. In this particular case, your friend wrote an application to speed up his market trading and he was banned for botting. CCP is pretty up front about not allowing this kind of behavior and it shouldn't be surprising that he got banned.

Your friend? He was a botter. He was a hacker. Him and people like him cost the games industry hundreds of millions each year in infrastructure costs. He should be ashamed, and so should you be.

Good day sir. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKG07305CBs

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.