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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Johnny Rook
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#501 - 2013-02-12 21:22:20 UTC
It never should have been eve uni's isk and that is why your sense of entitlement to either the isk or an explanation is wrong.

You knew that if the guy was suspended and the isk should've been removed to the point you petitioned it yourself. Now you complain when they correct their mistake. This is not the same as eve uni getting some dodgy isk unknowingly and of course get a deserved explanation as to why it was removed.
That said, it's been stated here it was removed for botting and you're still trying to cling to some claim to the isk, to of course 'help the newbies.'
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#502 - 2013-02-12 21:24:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
The issue is that the manner in which CCP Security deals with these issues, the stated lack of reporting (such as the CSM has with EVE Central Bank) combined with the lack of an appeals process (Judge, Jury and Executioner) is a recipe for distrust.



dude, their game, their rules.

**** happened, they went down on it, a bit of a mess happened with the isk that wasn't removed fast enough, you guys whine. that's how it looks.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#503 - 2013-02-12 21:25:26 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Judas Lonestar wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Wescro wrote:
Maybe my impression is incorrect here, but I was imagining his "in-game browser script" to not be very different from how EVE-Central calculates profitable trade items for haulers. The reason I say that is arbitrary is because if you stretch it, simply opening a notepad and writing down "buy x units of y" could be considered

Quote:
...patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency...


Now if he was automating keypresses and clicks, then I guess we can all agree it was wrong. But simply using a third party script that doesn't interact with the client, aka doesn't play the game for him, that should be ok.


It was allowing him to update 30 market order per minute for up to 20 minutes per day. No person can do that unassisted. His ban was justified as he was basically botting.


You cant, therefore no one can.

Gotchya.

For the record, I dont have a dog in this fight. Banned or not....Wont change what or how I fly.

The person you responded to can't update a market order every 2 seconds for 20 minutes straight, I can't do it, neither can you... nobody can.

That he was using a bot to accomplish this is not in question.


Just because you can't do it and people you know can't do it != someone else can't do it. Some people are flat out incredible around a keyboard. If you watched a really high end pro gamer, you can sometimes see them move their hands and react at speeds that seem impossible to many people. If the speed of the transactions was the question and nothing else, unless it was like an order every half second, that kind of speed alone isn't evidence to anything. Ignorance to other people's abilities is NOT evidence to anything nor should EVER be used as such. Unless they had physical evidence he was botting by actually detecting the programs he used or something along those lines? Then frankly its an overstep. If they had such evidence, then yeah, the guy is on the wrong and it should be dropped.

Frankly though them not removing the ISK in the first place was ridiculous either way.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#504 - 2013-02-12 21:25:33 UTC
Finde learth wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
Karbowiak wrote:
@Dante Uisen

Pretty sure it will, you can modify orders with about 2-3 seconds between each, and if you automate it to the point where the IGB handles putting most of the workload into computing form, and just has you pasting info into fields and hitting ok + next.

Then it's entirely possible to get about 30 orders a minute.


Even if you have some way of writing directly to the cut/paste clipboard buffer, and all you need to do is edit the order and paste in the value, you would still not be able to do it with 2 second intervals. You need to manually find the order and open the window to modify the order, the process can probably be very optimized but not to the point where you can modify order in 2 seconds.

Can orders be sorted? if they can,then can IGB data be sorted ? if all they can, is it still impossible modify orders in 2 seconds?


They can be sorted, and alphabetically would probably make the most sense.

Even so you would still need to find the next order in the list that needs to be modified, assuming that you would have some orders at the best price from last cycle.

You would need to access the orders window, find the next order to modify, right click the order and select modify, modify the price and save the order.

There is no way you can get a average time of 2 sec on that operation pattern.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#505 - 2013-02-12 21:25:58 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
My concerns were (and at time of writing, some are) that:

1. This is a significant amount of ISK to remove from the economy, and as such could be dangerous to the based on where and how it happened - for example, the player in question could have ‘dumped’ a large volume of stock of some item for very little.
2. That the whole balance was removed and this only appeared to happen a week after we brought it to CCPs attention, which suggested that it had been cleared and would have remained on the account of the person in question otherwise.
3. That no explanation other than “its a security matter” and “the ISK was obtained illegally” was provided even though the ISK was removed from EVE University itself, where previous occurrences of similar events resulted in a mail from a GM explaining what had happened (bot/RMT/hacked account).
4. That as a number of corp members were aware of the donation, and due to the amount of ISK involved, to avoid any allegations I would need to make the results of the petitions (including an outline of those petitions) public, and without a response this could look bad on CCP.
5. That I received no response as to the above concerns and instead was told that, in no uncertain terms, that I would receive no further information and that I was free to escalate this or make it as public as I wanted.
6. The responses to my petitions stated that there was no escalation path available for security matters, which was backed up by various sources, and that all attempts to locate one and deal with this quietly resulted in the path looping back on itself.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
Disagreement I don't mind.

In which case, I disagree with your statement that the concerns and questions were previously explained either via the petition system or in private, and as such I give you full permission to post all relevant material publicly in its entirety.

Whether or not “John” was using a macro/botting or any other illegal activity, the process of addressing the petition and the nature of the responses may have highlighted a flaw in CCPs procedures, which is simply bad customer relations.

The issue is that the manner in which CCP Security deals with these issues, the stated lack of reporting (such as the CSM has with EVE Central Bank) combined with the lack of an appeals process (Judge, Jury and Executioner) is a recipe for distrust.


Why did you involve CCP from the beginning with concerns about the donation? You must have understood that there was something not right about the whole situation.

Seems to me you knew something was potentially not right but when you got an answer you were not expecting decided to push your agenda in the way you have. I fully think you expected CCP to say "Oh its Eve Uni, let them have it" and when that response didnt come you started creating strawmen in an attempt to coerce and smear.

I doint think anyone that objectively is looking at this believes for one second that you are white knighting against "unfair practices" by CCP.

Its painfully clear what is the motivating factor behind your response.

I call for you to step down immediately form the CSM. Its clear that you are more than willing to muddy the waters when you or your corp is involved when it comes to the well being of the game. Whether you say differently or not, you support botting through your actions.

I say again, its time for you to step down from he CSM.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#506 - 2013-02-12 21:26:56 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
There is no way you can get a average time of 2 sec on that operation pattern.

Based on what? got any evidence beyond what YOU are capable of?
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#507 - 2013-02-12 21:28:08 UTC
Demanding information that one has no business knowing and then stomping the foot shouting "BUT I WANNA !", throwing a childish tantrum in full public view is truly and thoroughly embarrassing.

I am almost embarrassed myself just from watching.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#508 - 2013-02-12 21:30:28 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Demanding information that one has no business knowing and then stomping the foot shouting "BUT I WANNA !", throwing a childish tantrum in full public view is truly and thoroughly embarrassing.

I am almost embarrassed myself just from watching.


It started being their business when it affected them. That's the definition of it being someone's business. When it affects them.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#509 - 2013-02-12 21:31:26 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
There is no way you can get a average time of 2 sec on that operation pattern.

Based on what? got any evidence beyond what YOU are capable of?


And you can't prove it can be done...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#510 - 2013-02-12 21:31:59 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
There is no way you can get a average time of 2 sec on that operation pattern.

Based on what? got any evidence beyond what YOU are capable of?


I have evidence. CCP says the guy was botting. He was botting. It's really that simple.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#511 - 2013-02-12 21:32:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Aren Madigan wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Demanding information that one has no business knowing and then stomping the foot shouting "BUT I WANNA !", throwing a childish tantrum in full public view is truly and thoroughly embarrassing.

I am almost embarrassed myself just from watching.


It started being their business when it affected them. That's the definition of it being someone's business. When it affects them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FshkO8HqQ10 No.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#512 - 2013-02-12 21:33:56 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Demanding information that one has no business knowing and then stomping the foot shouting "BUT I WANNA !", throwing a childish tantrum in full public view is truly and thoroughly embarrassing.

I am almost embarrassed myself just from watching.


It started being their business when it affected them. That's the definition of it being someone's business. When it affects them.

You were in possession of contraband and it got confiscated. That's all you needed to know. That's all that was your business. Everything else is between the perpetrator and the enforcers.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#513 - 2013-02-12 21:34:35 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:

The issue is that the manner in which CCP Security deals with these issues, the stated lack of reporting (such as the CSM has with EVE Central Bank) combined with the lack of an appeals process (Judge, Jury and Executioner) is a recipe for distrust.


I want to redirect your attention to this post by CCP Sreegs:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2603295#post2603295

Specifically, this part:

CCP Sreegs wrote:

Will we see a thread next that Hilmar has no oversight? At what level is oversight acceptable? A director? A VP? At what level is complete fabrication designed specifically to cause my team and my company's reputation harm acceptable?


That's you. You deliberately and willfully crossed the line and are deliberately attempting to harm CCP.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#514 - 2013-02-12 21:35:11 UTC
by the gods, as the posts continue to flow, I'm starting to lose sight of the hole's depth.Shocked

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
HVAC Repairman
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#515 - 2013-02-12 21:35:15 UTC
this is the kind of sperging i would expect from my alliance

Follow me on twitter
Karbowiak
Sacred Templars
Fraternity.
#516 - 2013-02-12 21:36:11 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
There is no way you can get a average time of 2 sec on that operation pattern.

Based on what? got any evidence beyond what YOU are capable of?


I have evidence. CCP says the guy was botting. He was botting. It's really that simple.

-Liang


Problem is tho, they gave us the tools that allows us to automate a huge chunk of stuff.

It's entirely possible for me to create a system for my own use that.

1. Opens up all the market details for certain typeIDs i deal in
2. Checks the client cache with an external script, to fill in all market orders
3. Figure out where my order is priced (using the API) and what it needs to be to undercut the rest
4. Show me the price an item should be, and also put the new price into the paste buffer
5. I just open the order, and modify the isk value and hit ok
6. Hit next in the browser window

And then restart from #4

If he actually did this, it's nowhere near botting - it would however still allow him to modify market orders at an alarmingly fast rate, which could be mistaken for botting. Lol
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#517 - 2013-02-12 21:37:11 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Demanding information that one has no business knowing and then stomping the foot shouting "BUT I WANNA !", throwing a childish tantrum in full public view is truly and thoroughly embarrassing.

I am almost embarrassed myself just from watching.


It started being their business when it affected them. That's the definition of it being someone's business. When it affects them.



Eve Uni: "CCP, we think something is fishy about this 330b isk we got from a donation from someone in our corp who was suspended for market botting. Can you check it outto make sure its all legal?"

CCP: "Ok we will check into this"

Eve Uni: "Ok, thanks"

CCP: "Yes, that ISK is the result of botting activity and will be confiscated."

Eve Uni: "What do you mean? How did you come to this conclusion?"

CCP: "The Isk was confiscated because it was affiliated with botting behavior"

Eve Uni: "I dont believe you"



[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#518 - 2013-02-12 21:37:39 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
by the gods, as the posts continue to flow, I'm starting to lose sight of the hole's depth.Shocked

There is no bottom.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#519 - 2013-02-12 21:37:53 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
And you can't prove it can be done...


Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

Also argument from ignorance.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
There is no way you can get a average time of 2 sec on that operation pattern.

Based on what? got any evidence beyond what YOU are capable of?


I have evidence. CCP says the guy was botting. He was botting. It's really that simple.

-Liang


argumentum ad verecundiam
HVAC Repairman
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#520 - 2013-02-12 21:39:42 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
And you can't prove it can be done...


Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

Also argument from ignorance.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
There is no way you can get a average time of 2 sec on that operation pattern.

Based on what? got any evidence beyond what YOU are capable of?


I have evidence. CCP says the guy was botting. He was botting. It's really that simple.

-Liang


argumentum ad verecundiam
yes but the trial is not held in the court of public opinion

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