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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#461 - 2013-02-12 20:15:14 UTC
Wescro wrote:
I regret starting this thread. Please stop posting here. The matter seems resolved to me. Cheers CCP Sreegs.

Don't. This thread is full of win. And CCP Screegs got lots of likes having a busy day on the forums Lol.

As far as E-Uni leadership is concerned, you couldn't expect anything else really.

Remove standings and insurance.
Xenuria
#462 - 2013-02-12 20:15:22 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:

1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute.
2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.
3) The only authority higher than the Director of Security for these complaints is the Executive Producer and then the CEO. This is a higher level of escalation than the Customer Service arm and IA automatically looks at our work. I'm not sure why we feel we should be able to escalate higher than the highest reasonable authority but the fact is that this team operates with significant oversight. We believe the issue here to be more that this particular CSM feels he isn't in the loop, something which is quite frankly the only proper way to do business in a unit that handles secrets.

Frankly we're a bit disturbed by the allegations made here given that the person in question waited until they exhausted every resource possible prior to posting this then lamented the lack of an escalation path. Not getting the answer you like isn't a lack of an escalation path and never will be.




M-M-M-MONSTER KILL

CSM 12 Candidate
Finde learth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#463 - 2013-02-12 20:16:17 UTC
Violet Giraffe wrote:
ISBoxer is allowed? Is that confirmed by CCP?
Sorry for offtopic.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1291641&page=10#274
Sir SmashAlot
The League of Extraordinary Opportunists
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#464 - 2013-02-12 20:17:39 UTC
Learning that a trading bot was smashed with the banhammer warms my heart.

I would love to see a feature like:

BAN OF THE WEEK
Trade Bot
317 Billion

Short posts or tweets would make the day of many players. It would also reinforce the idea that persistent enforcement against illegal behaviour is regularly being done.

Thank You.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#465 - 2013-02-12 20:20:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Quote:


Kelduum Revaan:

The public channel was done without our knowledge or consent - apparently someone within CCP decided that we should be listed in the help channels, with all the spam and so on that comes with it, and for a time, we even had no moderator access to the channel
.



Oh wait, the channel was public anyway?

In today's news a public channel is public, huge controversy, more at 10

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Whitehound
#466 - 2013-02-12 20:20:38 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Wescro wrote:
I regret starting this thread. Please stop posting here. The matter seems resolved to me. Cheers CCP Sreegs.

Don't. This thread is full of win. And CCP Screegs got lots of likes having a busy day on the forums Lol.

As far as E-Uni leadership is concerned, you couldn't expect anything else really.

Regarding CCP Sreegs' Likes am I waiting for his statistics to update. It will be entertaining to watch. Cool

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#467 - 2013-02-12 20:20:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:

E-UNI itself is important and good overall for both the newbies the game itself, but its management rising themselves to a pedestal thinking they're untouchable simply needs to stop.


The OLD E-Uni (back in 2007-2008?) was a good and helpful organization. The new one... not so much. IMO.

-Liang

The new EVE-UNI is stupidly overcomplicated to get in. And when you bend over backwards to meet their requirements, you get rejected because you've met the requirements.

That, was a very interesting conversation...
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#468 - 2013-02-12 20:24:23 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:

E-UNI itself is important and good overall for both the newbies the game itself, but its management rising themselves to a pedestal thinking they're untouchable simply needs to stop.


The OLD E-Uni (back in 2007-2008?) was a good and helpful organization. The new one... not so much. IMO.

-Liang

The new EVE-UNI is stupidly overcomplicated to get in. And when you bend over backwards to meet their requirements, you get rejected because you've met the requirements.

That, was a very interesting conversation...


Is Eve Uni now just a vehicle and tool for its leadership to grab power in Eve?

All signs point towards------------> Yes

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Google Voices
Doomheim
#469 - 2013-02-12 20:24:51 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Beckie DeLey wrote:
A step in the right direction. Now if only they'd punish more people "playing" like this. While i applaud that something is done to people macroing all over the market, it is not really defendible why this guy has to go when The Wis (and others like him) and his macro army can stay.


Because ISboxer is allowed.



Of course Isboxer is allowed, how can CCP continue it's ALT proliferation without it?
The average player only has one or 2 computers available at most, so running more than a couple of accounts isn't really easy without it.


However the general populace would look at that and say....How is that not cheating? The software is translating user input into a multi-client system, sending the identical input to a number of clients.

"3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

How does this not fall under patterns of play? A single person is operating a massive army, and it's not possible without the software....You can't run 20 accounts as efficiently by yourself can you?

What it comes down to is money, CCP is only concerned about profit, and the rules only apply when they are in their favor.

Welcome to the hot business plan, sell your customers hundreds of accounts, let them pay for them with in game currency, and depend on a small number of people spending lots of real money on plex, to support their gaming addiction.


Well played CCP, well played....Shocked



"Fozzie could not comment on when this issue would be resolved and stated that “one day Veritas will come up to me and say ‘hey I fixed off-grid boosting’”, but he had no idea on a potential timeframe for this sort of miracle."
sembur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#470 - 2013-02-12 20:25:53 UTC
http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.asp 6.a.3
Quote:
You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.

emphasis mine

tl;dr
Hey Cache Scrapers: There is a line. Don't cross it.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#471 - 2013-02-12 20:26:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Im sorry but the more he speaks the more I want his head on a spike. My CSM choice was removed for far less and made no fuss like this guy.


Your CSM choice proved to be unable to be worth a public position by being weak enough to:

1) Get drunk and then talk public statements. Not even knowing how much alcohol he could bear before going nuts.

2) Treaten somebody in RL, which for now is somewhat worse than cheating in a game.

3) Act all high and mighty about it till he got "CCP nuked" into obliivion and peer pressure forced to public excuses and resignation.


This is also why elections and indirect democracy became a farce over time: influential / rich / with a clapping mob people get zerg-voted into positions of power and then do disasters.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#472 - 2013-02-12 20:32:06 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:

E-UNI itself is important and good overall for both the newbies the game itself, but its management rising themselves to a pedestal thinking they're untouchable simply needs to stop.


The OLD E-Uni (back in 2007-2008?) was a good and helpful organization. The new one... not so much. IMO.

-Liang

The new EVE-UNI is stupidly overcomplicated to get in. And when you bend over backwards to meet their requirements, you get rejected because you've met the requirements.

That, was a very interesting conversation...


Is Eve Uni now just a vehicle and tool for its leadership to grab power in Eve?

All signs point towards------------> Yes


I have to agree with you obvious forum alt #7535746-d8
Judas Lonestar
Stryker Industries
Stryker Group
#473 - 2013-02-12 20:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Judas Lonestar
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Wescro wrote:
Maybe my impression is incorrect here, but I was imagining his "in-game browser script" to not be very different from how EVE-Central calculates profitable trade items for haulers. The reason I say that is arbitrary is because if you stretch it, simply opening a notepad and writing down "buy x units of y" could be considered

Quote:
...patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency...


Now if he was automating keypresses and clicks, then I guess we can all agree it was wrong. But simply using a third party script that doesn't interact with the client, aka doesn't play the game for him, that should be ok.


It was allowing him to update 30 market order per minute for up to 20 minutes per day. No person can do that unassisted. His ban was justified as he was basically botting.


You cant, therefore no one can.

Gotchya.

For the record, I dont have a dog in this fight. Banned or not....Wont change what or how I fly.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#474 - 2013-02-12 20:35:41 UTC
Judas Lonestar wrote:

You cant, therefore no one can.

Gotchya.


He admits to writing a program to help him do speed up his market orders. CCP bans him for botting. He provides the source code to CCP. CCP says he was botting.

I'm not sure why we're discussing this?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#475 - 2013-02-12 20:36:55 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Judas Lonestar wrote:

You cant, therefore no one can.

Gotchya.


He admits to writing a program to help him do speed up his market orders. CCP bans him for botting. He provides the source code to CCP. CCP says he was botting.

I'm not sure why we're discussing this?

-Liang


Because of Falcon?

Damn sry, though this was 2011, never mind.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#476 - 2013-02-12 20:36:57 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Im sorry but the more he speaks the more I want his head on a spike. My CSM choice was removed for far less and made no fuss like this guy.


Your CSM choice proved to be unable to be worth a public position by being weak enough to:

1) Get drunk and then talk public statements. Not even knowing how much alcohol he could bear before going nuts.

2) Treaten somebody in RL, which for now is somewhat worse than cheating in a game.

3) Act all high and mighty about it till he got "CCP nuked" into obliivion and peer pressure forced to public excuses and resignation.


This is also why elections and indirect democracy became a farce over time: influential / rich / with a clapping mob people get zerg-voted into positions of power and then do disasters.


It wasnt a threat it was a joke. A very bad one that even the most tasteless goon cringed at. But at least he had the excuse of being blind drunk in a wizard hat adressing other drunken neckbeards.

This however is someone atempting to get their grubby mits on botted isk and is willing to drag the names of people at CCP through the mud with lies to get it.
Karbowiak
Sacred Templars
Fraternity.
#477 - 2013-02-12 20:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Karbowiak
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
I'm very sure that you can't modify 30 orders within a minute - whether with macros or by hand.


You can use the in-game browser to display market data, which makes it a trivial task to write software that detects when you need to update you orders. All you need to do is use javascript to cycle trough the item you want to sell, this updates the local cache which you can parse to get the items sell prices. From there on all you need to do is verify the weather or not you have the lowest price.

You can list the correct price need to undercut by .1 isk, or maybe even manipulate the copy/paste buffer directly to contain the correct value. In the end all you need to do is find the correct order, edit and paste the value. It probably takes more then 2 sec for reach order, but you can do a lot of orders each minute.

This is a public know and legal way of managing market orders.



I would not recommend anyone do this and I'd ask that you not tell our players what you consider to be legal. The EULA does a decent enough job of that and is contrary to your statement.


Did you just outlaw:

1. using the cache files to get information
2. using javascript to alter the paste buffer
3. regular use of the IGB javascript functions

Cause it sure as hell sounds like it.

Doing any of these things aren't illegal according to the EULA, but i guess using your own tools to give ourselves an advantage in these kind of situations, is botting. Roll

edit://
(21:40:11) (+Karbowiak) http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/IGB_Javascript_Methods#showMarketDetails_Method
(21:40:12) (+Karbowiak) there
(21:40:23) (+Karbowiak) call CCPEVE.showMarketDetails(typeID) with javascript
(21:40:30) (+Karbowiak) and you can automatically open the market details for an item
(21:40:51) (+Karbowiak) so, actually automating it to the point where you just paste pricing into the field and hitting ok
(21:40:59) (+Karbowiak) is very very small
(21:42:42) (+Karbowiak) if you're savvy enough to do javascript, it's entirely possible to open the page, have it load up your market orders via the API, and then automatically call up CCPEVE.showMarketDetails(typeID) in rapid succession to fill up the cache dir, and then fire up a call that parses all that data, figures out the new prices, and how low you have to go to underbid, and then open the market detail window, and fill in the new price to the paste buffer
(21:42:53) (+Karbowiak) at which point you just paste, hit ok, and click "open next" in the browser
(21:43:25) (+Karbowiak) i don't exactly see that as botting, but rather as using the tools we're given in the smartest possible way
(21:43:39) (~Entity) lots of people do exactly that
(21:43:59) (@PeterPowers) automatically scrapping the market information by automatically filling the cache, so you can automatically make prices, for automatically opening.... do you remember that part of the eula/tos that sais "no automating gameplay"?
(21:44:00) (+Karbowiak) but apparently the guy who ragequit and gave 317B to EVE-Uni, did this
(21:44:01) (+Karbowiak) and got banned
(21:44:02) (~Entity) I get plenty of questions regarding that from people using Reverence for it
(21:44:16) (+Karbowiak) PeterPowers it's not entirely automated tho
(21:44:23) (+Karbowiak) you still have to paste the new price into the field and hit ok
(21:44:31) (+Karbowiak) so it's not automatic as such
(21:44:36) (@PeterPowers) Karbowiak: tbh, the threshold where it gets too much is ccps thing to decide
(21:44:43) (+Karbowiak) weeeeeeeelllllllllllll
(21:44:48) (+Karbowiak) if they start taking a stand now
(21:44:51) (+Karbowiak) against this
(21:44:56) (+Karbowiak) where will they "take a stand" next ?
(21:45:09) (~Entity) "Here is a spaceship, designed for killing people with. Please don't use it to kill people with."
(21:45:21) (+Karbowiak) they can't just give us tools and tell us to create ****, and then when we create something really interesting, tell us we can't
(21:45:34) (+Karbowiak) exactly Entity
(21:45:35) (@PeterPowers) and, tbh, we all know that cache reading is a greyzone at best
(21:45:41) (+Karbowiak) but it's allowed
(21:45:44) (~Entity) cache reading is perfectly legal
(21:45:46) (+Karbowiak) and they said so themselves
(21:45:52) (~Entity) or my library wouldn't be out there
Judas Lonestar
Stryker Industries
Stryker Group
#478 - 2013-02-12 20:37:21 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Judas Lonestar wrote:

You cant, therefore no one can.

Gotchya.


He admits to writing a program to help him do speed up his market orders. CCP bans him for botting. He provides the source code to CCP. CCP says he was botting.

I'm not sure why we're discussing this?

-Liang


I dont either.As I edited above, I dont have a dog in this fight. CCP can hire the guy on as a designer or ban him. In fact....I've already spent too much time on this issue.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#479 - 2013-02-12 20:40:54 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Judas Lonestar wrote:

You cant, therefore no one can.

Gotchya.


He admits to writing a program to help him do speed up his market orders. CCP bans him for botting. He provides the source code to CCP. CCP says he was botting.

I'm not sure why we're discussing this?

-Liang



Thats what makes this so over the top stupid on the part of Kelduum.

He has not put up any fight at all to defend his corp mate from the charges of botting. Instead he has focused on trying to fight for ISK he knows is dirty by sowing seeds of doubt and making some serious accusations directed at CCP.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Shamon Hussad
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#480 - 2013-02-12 20:42:57 UTC
Karbowiak wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
I'm very sure that you can't modify 30 orders within a minute - whether with macros or by hand.


You can use the in-game browser to display market data, which makes it a trivial task to write software that detects when you need to update you orders. All you need to do is use javascript to cycle trough the item you want to sell, this updates the local cache which you can parse to get the items sell prices. From there on all you need to do is verify the weather or not you have the lowest price.

You can list the correct price need to undercut by .1 isk, or maybe even manipulate the copy/paste buffer directly to contain the correct value. In the end all you need to do is find the correct order, edit and paste the value. It probably takes more then 2 sec for reach order, but you can do a lot of orders each minute.

This is a public know and legal way of managing market orders.



I would not recommend anyone do this and I'd ask that you not tell our players what you consider to be legal. The EULA does a decent enough job of that and is contrary to your statement.


Did you just outlaw:

1. using the cache files to get information
2. using javascript to alter the paste buffer
3. regular use of the IGB javascript functions

Cause it sure as hell sounds like it.

Doing any of these things aren't illegal according to the EULA, but i guess using your own tools to give ourselves an advantage in these kind of situations, is botting. Roll

Yip sounds like it, since I'm pretty sure that's what John was doing, but nope must be botting ban.