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Hide your ISK, Team Security is out of control. (Allegedly)

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Author
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-02-12 11:37:35 UTC
Orbital Dyke wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Orbital Dyke wrote:
It seems that john was a well known player rather than a corp-less disposable botting alt

Its possible that from the very start of this escapade the CCP Representative(s) handling this case have ultimately got it wrong


Except for the whole fact that John was botting. I personally don't care how well respected in the community someone is, if they get caught breaking the rules they should be punished in the same way as anyone else would.


He wasnt botting CCP interpreted his actions as botting because they didnt understand what he was actually doing in theory 'attack what you dont understand' in this case


Please enlighten us all as to how updating market orders faster than a human can possibly do it by themselves is not botting. It's pretty clear cut in the rules.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#82 - 2013-02-12 11:38:29 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Sreegs
Vera Algaert wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Thur Barbek wrote:
Wescro wrote:

Thank you for responding substantively instead of closing the thread. I'm sure everyone here wants to see the right thing done. In this situation it's your word against the players. Is there anyway the playerbase can be given assurance that the process is not arbitrary besides simply asking us to have faith in CCP?


CCP Sreegs already said they knew 100% that john was botting. I don't get why deciding to punish him would be an "arbitrary" decision.


I think this situation really cuts to the core of actual misconduct. In this case we're actually being asked to treat EVE-U differently, which would by nature be misconduct. Our actions in this regard show exactly the opposite.

the actual misconduct as far as I can tell was not removing John's isk while he was banned (which also allowed E UNI to get their hopes up) - being warned by the ban that his botting had become unfeasible he could have easily RMTed all his ISK before you managed to confiscate it.


Misconduct insinuates malicious intent. That's not the case here.

If he'd RMT'd his isk that would have been a much better scenario for us as we wouldn't be having this conversation and we'd have caught more badguys.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-02-12 11:39:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
I'm very sure that you can't modify 30 orders within a minute - whether with macros or by hand.


*snipped, see CCP Sreeg's reply below* - CCP Eterne



I would not recommend anyone do this and I'd ask that you not tell our players what you consider to be legal. The EULA does a decent enough job of that and is contrary to your statement.


This has been discussed before on the official forums, where dev/gm posts said this method was not against the rules as the player edits the market order.
Whitehound
#84 - 2013-02-12 11:39:35 UTC
Wescro wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
I'm very sure that you can't modify 30 orders within a minute - whether with macros or by hand.


I bet you can, under the right circumstances (not Jita). Go to "my orders"

Double-click - 0.13 seconds
Roll mousewheel up/down once - 0.10 seconds
Press enter - 0.15 seconds
Move mouse to next order - 0.68 seconds

Use the remaining one second to account for UI delay and develop arthritis.

You leave out the step where you look up the price you want to enter and type it into the field before pressing ENTER.

This alone takes more than 2 seconds.

I always make sure I get the digits right or else I might enter a ridiculous amount and make a massive loss. This guy must have been using some tool to be entering the right price this fast.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Lovely Dumplings
My Little Pony Appreciation Corporation
#85 - 2013-02-12 11:39:42 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
I think this situation really cuts to the core of actual misconduct. In this case we're actually being asked to treat EVE-U differently, which would by nature be misconduct. Our actions in this regard show exactly the opposite.


We're all kinda tapdancing around it, but this player thanks you for that. Too many folks tend to lead weight to "e-bushido" in EVE. Doesn't matter if you're the CEO of the premier most helpful newbieloving alliance in the game, or a downright dirty scummy e-pirate, we all need to be equal when it comes to EULA enforcement.

And, really, if I were running something against EULA in game, the first place I'd hide is in the "good" group. "Such a great guy would never harm a fly best pals for 30 years must be a conspiracy" seems to come up often in RL trials too.

www.minerbumping.com

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#86 - 2013-02-12 11:39:54 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Dante Uisen wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
I'm very sure that you can't modify 30 orders within a minute - whether with macros or by hand.


*snipped discussion of possible illegal activity*



I would not recommend anyone do this and I'd ask that you not tell our players what you consider to be legal. The EULA does a decent enough job of that and is contrary to your statement.


This has been discussed before on the official forums, where dev/gm posts said this method was not against the rules as the player edits the market order.


I'd stick to the actual legal agreement you agreed to rather than outdated GM replies. It's a suggestion.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Docter Daniel Jackson
Fleetworks Training
#87 - 2013-02-12 11:40:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Dante Uisen wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
I'm very sure that you can't modify 30 orders within a minute - whether with macros or by hand.


*snipped discussion of possible illegal activity*



I would not recommend anyone do this and I'd ask that you not tell our players what you consider to be legal. The EULA does a decent enough job of that and is contrary to your statement.


This has been discussed before on the official forums, where dev/gm posts said this method was not against the rules as the player edits the market order.


then by all means give up a link to it.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#88 - 2013-02-12 11:40:34 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Frankly we're a bit disturbed by the allegations made here given that the person in question waited until they exhausted every resource possible prior to posting this then lamented the lack of an escalation path. Not getting the answer you like isn't a lack of an escalation path and never will be.


With this games interesting.......history, do you REALLY blame half the allegations made. I mean, all of them, not just in this thread.


While I'm not trying to slide things under a rug, yes basing an allegation against my team on a single act of misconduct 7 years ago is pretty insane.

I meant ever, with everything, not just that one time 7 years ago.

There's alot of them that crop up, mainly in the "Tinfoil hat community" which is unfairly treated btw...


The only allegation that I can recall with any substance was that one. Whether the paranoid conspiracy theory community has had a separate trial process and decided other crazy batshit insane garbage was true I can't attest to as I don't subscribe to that mailing list and instead deal in the realm of fact.

There's a mailing list for that?
REALLY...???
What is it, I could use a good laugh!

ESP if there's anything about CCP holding Aliens hostage from Planet X, and using their tears to feed the hamsters that you guys have enslaved and drugged using Voltric to keep them in line.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2013-02-12 11:40:59 UTC
Heh not the first nor the last time Kelduum protects his staff without even the slightest consideration that they just might be wrong. Nothing against the uni itself, they do a great job for the newbies and a great service for the game overall, but those hypocritical accusations towards CCP are really so misdirected that it's not even funny.
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#90 - 2013-02-12 11:41:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Buhhdust Princess
Ok so, this all seems fairly normal to me, guy gets banned for updating 30 market orders a minute (yes 1 every 2 seconds, cmon), so CCP let him keep the isk.

But as soon as he donates to to EVE Uni, and they graciously ask you if it is legal, you take it from them? Why is that? It seems a little unfair considering you were going to let the guy keep his 300bil. ESPECIALLY as they were so honest.

Just a thought :)
Arduemont
The State of War.
#91 - 2013-02-12 11:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Disclaimer; I haven't read the whole thread, just the OP.

I have heard of similar things. I won't give too many details, but someone I played with had an alt... and that alt was Spaceship Barbie. Now, he made more money than Spaceship Barbie did with the scams anyway, but it goes to say that he dealt in a very very very very very large amount of ISK on a daily basis. CCP accused him of either ISK selling, or dealing with ISK sellers. Apparently they weren't very specific. Either way he was banned and his ISK was removed. He was banned for literally months whilst this person tried to prove their innocence. At the end of it, they unbanned him and said they were mistaken, but as far as I am aware they never returned his ISK. Now frankly, that is appalling.

I am, of course, hearing this all second hand, but it's not beyond any company to make horrible mistakes. I think there is actually an internal affairs department in CCP for regulating the GMs. When I told my friend about this, he had never heard of that. Perhaps if he had gone to them as soon as it got messy, it might have turned out differently.

As a side note, I have to say it is not good form for Kedluum to be publicly trashing CCP over a matter where, frankly, they are easily still doing the right thing.

Edit: I should have read the thread. Well done CCP for catching the bad guys. Kedluum won't be receiving any of my votes this coming election.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2013-02-12 11:41:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Orbital Dyke wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Orbital Dyke wrote:
It seems that john was a well known player rather than a corp-less disposable botting alt

Its possible that from the very start of this escapade the CCP Representative(s) handling this case have ultimately got it wrong


Except for the whole fact that John was botting. I personally don't care how well respected in the community someone is, if they get caught breaking the rules they should be punished in the same way as anyone else would.


He wasnt botting CCP interpreted his actions as botting because they didnt understand what he was actually doing in theory 'attack what you dont understand' in this case


I'm pretty sure we define botting.

Perhaps we would have more confidence in your opinions if you hadn't shown complete cluelessness regarding your own policies (and the common practices of the market community) before.

(edit: nope, I don't buy your "just checking to see how these things are communicated" comeback, it was extremely weak.)

.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#93 - 2013-02-12 11:42:07 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Wescro wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
I'm very sure that you can't modify 30 orders within a minute - whether with macros or by hand.


I bet you can, under the right circumstances (not Jita). Go to "my orders"

Double-click - 0.13 seconds
Roll mousewheel up/down once - 0.10 seconds
Press enter - 0.15 seconds
Move mouse to next order - 0.68 seconds

Use the remaining one second to account for UI delay and develop arthritis.

You leave out the step where you look up the price you want to enter and type it into the field before pressing ENTER.

This alone takes more than 2 seconds.

I always make sure I get the digits right or else I might enter a ridiculous amount and make a massive loss. This guy must have been using some tool to be entering the right price this fast.


Did you know you can use the mousewheel to change prices? move it a couple of 'clicks' and you'll reduce the price by 0.02 isk

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2013-02-12 11:44:06 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Wescro wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
I'm very sure that you can't modify 30 orders within a minute - whether with macros or by hand.


I bet you can, under the right circumstances (not Jita). Go to "my orders"

Double-click - 0.13 seconds
Roll mousewheel up/down once - 0.10 seconds
Press enter - 0.15 seconds
Move mouse to next order - 0.68 seconds

Use the remaining one second to account for UI delay and develop arthritis.

You leave out the step where you look up the price you want to enter and type it into the field before pressing ENTER.

This alone takes more than 2 seconds.

I always make sure I get the digits right or else I might enter a ridiculous amount and make a massive loss. This guy must have been using some tool to be entering the right price this fast.


You can use api dumps of your market orders and the market cache to determine which orders need to be updated to what price. This can be done (crudely) in a simple spreadsheet. Then a short script to manipulate copy/paste buffer, which is really just a quick edit of the text file windows uses to store the copy/paste bin.

I'm going to stop elaborating on this now, i promise ccp screegs. Not trying to teach how to make a bot.
Wescro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-02-12 11:44:40 UTC
Whitehound wrote:

You leave out the step where you look up the price you want to enter and type it into the field before pressing ENTER.

This alone takes more than 2 seconds.

I always make sure I get the digits right or else I might enter a ridiculous amount and make a massive loss. This guy must have been using some tool to be entering the right price this fast.


This discussion is moot at this point but I will humor you.

You do not need to look up the price to update an order. You need to look up the price to update an order AND undercut other orders.

Typing a price is also unnecessary, as simply rolling the mousewheel changes the price by 0.01 ISK. I'm sure you knew that though. =P
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2013-02-12 11:46:36 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Disclaimer; I haven't read the whole thread, just the OP.

I have heard of similar things. I won't give too many details, but someone I played with had an alt... and that alt was Spaceship Barbie. Now, he made more money than Spaceship Barbie did with the scams anyway, but it goes to say that he dealt in a very very very very very large amount of ISK on a daily basis. CCP accused him of either ISK selling, or dealing with ISK sellers. Apparently they weren't very specific. Either way he was banned and his ISK was removed. He was banned for literally months whilst this person tried to prove their innocence. At the end of it, they unbanned him and said they were mistaken, but as far as I am aware they never returned his ISK. Now frankly, that is appalling.

I am, of course, hearing this all second hand, but it's not beyond any company to make horrible mistakes. I think there is actually an internal affairs apartment in CCP for regulating the GMs. When I told my friend about this, he had never heard of that. Perhaps if he can gone to them as soon as it got messy, it might have turned out differently.


I can recall a recent incident where, lets call him Bob, was banned for RMT. To cut the story short, he scammed a no name person from no name alliance & this person was buying isk from somewhere. Bob supplied the entire story from his point of view & was promptly unbanned & the days he lost were credited to his account. As the isk itself had been obtained illegally, Bob did not get to keep it.

CCP will never return isk that was obtained illegally, nor should they. They will however unban the innocent party.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-02-12 11:50:04 UTC
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
Ok so, this all seems fairly normal to me, guy gets banned for updating 30 market orders a minute (yes 1 every 2 seconds, cmon), so CCP let him keep the isk.


This was already covered earlier. CCP Sreegs explained why the isk wasn't taken straight away.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#98 - 2013-02-12 11:52:28 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Orbital Dyke wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Orbital Dyke wrote:
It seems that john was a well known player rather than a corp-less disposable botting alt

Its possible that from the very start of this escapade the CCP Representative(s) handling this case have ultimately got it wrong


Except for the whole fact that John was botting. I personally don't care how well respected in the community someone is, if they get caught breaking the rules they should be punished in the same way as anyone else would.


He wasnt botting CCP interpreted his actions as botting because they didnt understand what he was actually doing in theory 'attack what you dont understand' in this case


I'm pretty sure we define botting.

Perhaps we would have more confidence in your opinions if you hadn't shown complete cluelessness regarding your own policies (and the common practices of the market community) before.

(edit: nope, I don't buy your "just checking to see how these things are communicated" comeback, it was extremely weak.)


I'm not sure how asking for where we've made a statement I disagree with (and I'm the only one that matters in this instance) is "cluelessness" but suffice it to say that I would highly recommend you not engage in such activity. You can choose to ignore that and make a self righteous post defending yourself after we take action if you like.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Apo Lyptica
The AFK corp
#99 - 2013-02-12 11:53:18 UTC
TLDR Jist-

some one thought a macro wasn't a bot, knew he was about to get caught. Tried donating the 300b to eve-uni and when ccp took the isk from eve-uni they got butt hurt.

Person punished? Check
Isk removed that was basically stolen from those who do things the honest way? Check
The good guys win for once? Check

All good here, I think ccp should lock this thread.
Xuse Senna
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#100 - 2013-02-12 11:54:42 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
Ok so, this all seems fairly normal to me, guy gets banned for updating 30 market orders a minute (yes 1 every 2 seconds, cmon), so CCP let him keep the isk.


This was already covered earlier. CCP Sreegs explained why the isk wasn't taken straight away.


I already told him :P

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7501/mindgamesceptionfinaldr.jpg